Radien55

Wow that sounds like perfection! You say bars instead of template, so there is no OMNI Quad template that would work on a Prosharp machine? When I skate on Quad 2, sometimes if feels like I hit a transition point and lose grip for a split second before it catches again and that is a bit sketchy. I have been very reluctant to try the ellipse profiles for that very fact that you don't know what you will get, so it feels like a total crapshoot and I don't want to waste steel trying back and forth. If I can see numbers, it makes it easier because I know what I like. I'd take a Zuperior and shorten the 13' section a bit in the front to 10' for more agility. Not as much as the Quad 2 because it lost some speed and is too much on the toes. I guess something in between the Zuperior M and Quad 2 would be the sweet spot.

Yeah I was really confused about that too in the beginning, (still kind of am). They use two different words to describe the same thing, or two different methods to achieve the same result. I think (big emphasis on think, so any sharpening gurus please correct me if this is wrong) the old machines had a function to profile pitch and it was labeled as such. You would move a lever to x degrees and that would tilt the template and become the pitch profiled onto the blade (i.e. 9.5/10.5 with 1 degree forward pitch). With modern machines (that may not have the pitch lever) they do it by moving the pivot point. This is my current understanding of it, feel free to correct if I got something wrong.

I have not tried them, but in my experience, even the FT6/ASV do not fit the same as the Pro versions so I would advice you to test them first. It is the same for Bauer, Machs fit different than the M5 Pro. The latter is more narrow.

Yes that is how it works. If you have a blade in front of you, put it on a table with a pen under the middle of the blade, then move the pen back 20mm and see how the front of the blade falls forward.

Yes that makes a lot of sense! I would lose more steel and be even more pitched. The Quad 2 already took off a lot of steel compared to a Zuperior profile and I don't want to remove more. I do like the quad, just feel the pitch is a bit much. Thank you for explaining. I have not heard of OMNI profiles or Blackstone, most shops here only have Prosharp machines and templates.

Yes it must be the aggressive toe causing it, because they both have -20mm pivot points. How many millimeters would you remove from the pivot point of the Quad to make it feel more like Zuperior in terms of pitch?

Ouch! That must have been a crazy amount of pitch, poor knees. I'm glad you were able to fix it. Sometimes we really create our own suffering. I remember playing in skates that had a lot of forward pitch and my lower back would be very tired after games. I thought it was normal until I changed skates and it went away, turns out it was the pitch of the boot causing it the whole time.

Yes correct! I had both the Zuperior and Quad profiled with the built in pitch, which is stated as -20mm pivot point. Skating on them however, the Quad is significantly more forward pitched. When you lay the quad on top of the Zuperior , you can even tell with your eyes that it is much more aggressively pitched. How did you adjust pitch and what were the detrimental consequences?

I have been skating on Quad 2 (280mm runners) for the last month, and while I like the profile, it has a lot of forward pitch, much more than Zuperior M, which I find has a good amount of pitch. The Quad 2 feels a bit extreme due to this. It is immediately noticeable as soon as you take off your skate guards, you feel like you are standing on a hill. I do like being forward pitched, but this is just a little too much. Q1: Does anyone know how much mm/degrees of pitch you should remove to make them feel more like Zuperior? Q2: Would a Quad 1 be less pitched forward on 280mm runners or about the same?

Steel: Blacksteel 280 Skates: CCM Tacks AS-V Steel: LS Pulse 280 Skates: Bauer Vapor 3X Pro, Supreme Mach Hollow: 7/8" Profile Review: Zuperior M (6-13-20) I have skated on this profile for over 50 hours now and I like it a lot, I came from a single 10". This profile has 3 sections. It is one large 13" section in the middle, and two smaller sections in the front and rear. It is basically a pitched single 13" with a shaved toe and added steel in the rear. The first skate: I expected to feel awkward and need time to adapt to it, but I didn't notice any difference from the single 10". I skated just like normally, it felt completely natural from the first step. After 30 min on the ice it hit me, how much easier it was to skate, it took less effort to accomplish the same things and I was skating much better. The first two weeks: I noticed huge improvements in speed, stability, more importantly stability at speed. Any kind of edgework (crossovers, tight turns with hand touch, single leg c cut with hand touch) became much easier. The stability of this profile gives me much more confidence in my edges. I drop the top eyelet on all my skates and I'm on my toes a lot. During the first week or two, I did not notice any drawbacks of this profile, only positives. POSITIVES: Speed Stability Edgework Acceleration RESHARPENING: 7/8" I had gradually been pushing the profile more and more and gotten used to the dull blades. After they were freshly sharpened, I started to experience problems. Felt glued to the ice and skated terribly. If a puck was near me but in the "wrong" place, I couldn't move to get it, felt like the blades would be stuck in the ice and I would tip over like a chopped tree. I felt uncomfortable breaking hard from full speed too, instead of shaving the ice, the blades wanted to grab it and send me flying over the other side. I tried to dull them up against the rubber floor and going back and forth on the ice breaking on each side to wear them down. After a bit they became better, but I had started to notice more drawbacks of the profile. DRAWBACKS: Mobility: These are marketed as an Agility profile and it is true as long as you are on your toes, but if you stop skating on your toes, you lose the agility. On transitions, when pivoting from forwards to backwards, you have to be really on your toes and swing the whole skate around with a lot of clearance. Any laziness and you can easily catch an edge. This can tire you out by the end of a game. CONCLUSION (after 50 hours of skating) This profile is really good! It has a small mobility penalty but for everything you get, it is well worth it. I love the speed and stability and it makes me trust my edges and skate much better. Tight turns are great too, maybe not turn on a dime but you come out of the tight turns with speed. They are great for a full size rink and there I don't notice the drawbacks so much. Playing 3v3 in one zone, or pond hockey, the limitations are more noticeable. This profile thrives on a full size rink where they can really fly. The 6" front section: Better acceleration than a single 10". Don't be intimidated by the number, it feels natural. Going back to a single 10", all that steel in the toe felt terrible. The 13" middle section: You are on this part the majority of the time, unlike a combo profile, there are no transitions under your foot, so it is a very smooth experience. The 20" rear section: Saves you from falling backwards. Unless you lean back, you don't really notice this part. It's a very small section. Does not hinder tight turns like Detroit 1 Acceleration: 3.5 Very good thanks to the small 6" section, Mobility: 3.0 Passing grade, would like a little more, but it works as long as the ice is hard Speed: 4.5 Amazing! Only Detroit 1 is faster Stability 4.5 It gives you all the stability you want, if you add more stability you would sacrifice too much mobility, i.e. Detroit 1. Hollow, Symptoms and Profile troubleshooting: This profile achieves grip from its large blade contact, not from a deep hollow. It is sensitive to hollow and ice conditions. I played a game on hard ice (indoor rink) and everything was great, the next day I was on soft ODR ice and I struggled badly (same skates, same runners), as the blades sunk deeper into the ice than intended and that resulted in losing too much mobility and feeling glued to the ice. (A single 10" usually has the opposite effect, where the extra contact makes me skate better on softer ice.) 5/8" forget about it, 3/4" maybe. For me, even 7/8" was too sharp. I have moved to 1" now and it's much better. If you experience any of these symptoms: Feel like skis, glued to the ice, skating in mud, locked in to the path of the skates. Try a shallower hollow: 7/8", 1" or even 1 1/16". This will help alleviate those symptoms and make the profile shine. My curiosity makes me want to try the Quad 1 or 2 next.

I am not sure what you mean with heavy. You want it to dig in more? Pressure = Force / Area. Both the Quad 2 and the Zuperior M have a 13' glide area, it wont' dig in as much as a 10'. I guess you could describe this as feeling light, you have less grip and it glides better. It feels odd at first but you just have to trust it and get used to it. By comparison a single 10' just feels slow, but digs in more so you have better grip. I guess you could call this heavy feeling. If you want more heavy feeling, I would go down to a smaller Quad (Zuperior M will give you more contact than a Quad 2) and that will give you less blade contact allowing it to sink deeper into the ice. Going from a Quad 2 to a 1 or 0, you are decreasing the Area, in the equation above. If you just move to a deeper sharpen, you'll have the same blade contact but more friction. It is easier to try, but I would be careful to use a deep sharpen on a larger profile, it will be tiring on a full size rink. Personally I am on a Zuperior M with 7/8" hollow (280mm runners). The Zuperior is all about speed and stability. I have been on it for a month now, I will write a more in-depth review soon.

Those look like great! I will order one directly to save my hands. I've had so many cuts the last couple of weeks that the hockey tape had to double as band aid. Thanks for the tip!

With the Bauers I had a tool, sometimes they would come out by hand, sometimes I needed to use the tool. I could skate right off the ice and change to another set, even if they were full of ice and snow, thanks to the tool. With the CCMs I can't do this. My Tacks or the steel didn't come with any tool. By hand, I can only remove the blades under optimal conditions, IE when they are dry and holding the skate in my hand. This makes changing steel during the same session difficult. Removing the blades under good conditions have worked okay with regular Step Steel, but I got a few sets of Black Steel and they are a PITA to get out. One skate is especially stubborn and I have to pull really hard on it, it goes from being stuck to flying out, because I have to use so much force, and blades are sharp, so my hands are in danger every time. My LS edge tool doesn't work on CCM and I don't want to use pliers because that will scratch up the steel. Is coated steel to be avoided because of the added thickness or is there a simpler way?

Yes that makes sense. I don't want to be too much on my toes either, so 20mm might be too much. I think I will try with 10mm. Thank you! I have a couple of questions on pivot point and pitch. Prosharp said you can move the pivot point back 5-20mm, they also said you can add forward pitch by 0-1 degree angle. Question 1: When should you move the pivot point back XXmm versus adding +1 degree of forward pitch? I understand they are different methods of achieving a similar goal but when and why should you use one over the other? Question 2: On a combo profile, the 13' radius starts in the middle of the blade. If you move the pivot point back 10-20mm, does the 13' part start later on the blade?

I have skated in Supremes and Vapors, mainly the latter. I have good acceleration and agility, my strides are short to medium length so I'm good from zero to medium speed, above that my game really suffers, I feel a lack of confidence and stability (although my new AS-V seems to help here, better fit and stiffness, less wobbly). I play in recreational league for ex-players. I am in size 9 skates with 280mm runners. I use single 10' and I like it, but I want just a little more contact patch to aid grip, speed and stability, without hindering lateral mobility too much. I have skated a lot in Detroit 10-20 and while I liked the speed, and stability on crossovers, I felt flat footed, immobile and the extra steel really hindered lateral moves. I want something between the two (maybe closer to the 10'), that adds speed, stability on crossovers and can also handle lateral direction changes. I skate backwards a lot so many pivots forwards to backwards need to be accounted for, hence why I am looking at the Quad or similar, over a Zuperior or 13' which might feel too long. The Quad 0-1 shave off way too much steel for my liking, seems like it would lead to short and choppy strides as you run out of steel on the toe to push off with. The 10/13 seems good in that it doesn't have a shaved toe, so it's familiar territory. The Quad II shaves off the least amount of steel, which is why I am looking at that one, despite being in a size smaller runners than it is recommended for. Does the 7' toe make it less stable to skate backwards? I also worry that the 16' in the rear might be too much and close to the Detroit feeling. I want to get a pitched profile for the Tacks so I can change easily change from neutral to pitched (and back) with a simple blade change. A non-pitched profile for the Vapors or they will be too much on the toes.

Has anyone here skated on both? Is there a big difference? I registered here recently, but I have been reading the forums for a couple of years, especially everything regarding the Prosharp project. Fascinating reading I must say! The 10/13 combo profile is rarely mentioned and I could not find anyone here or elsewhere that talked about skating on it. Combo: --10-13--- QUAD II: 7-10-13-16 Combo 10/13 is 10 in front and 13 in the rear, while the main and middle portion of a Quad 2 is 10 and 13. According to illustrations of the Quad, I think the 13 part starts before the middle of the blade, so a little earlier than a combo profile where it starts in the middle of the blade. Other than that, they are on paper very similar on the main part of the blade. Theoretically, if you profile a 10/13 to the same pitch as the Quad, they "should" feel very similar, but without the shaved toe and extra steel in the rear. The 10/13 combo seems like a great compromise, the speed and glide of a 13' without the agility penalty. However the lack of popularity has me wondering. There are very few people talking about it and most shops don't even have the template. I'm curious if there is anyone that has skated on it, or both profiles, that could share their opinion on it and maybe the differences between the two?

Wow! Please do tell more. I know people love the FT6 series, but if a a Mach makes you long for the FT690, that's quite concerning. As I understand it, it's a dressed up FT680, so even with the extra features, the stiffness is not upgraded, (165). Bauer doesn't have a stiffness rating but the Mach is in the ballpark of the FT6 and AS-V, (180-190), so it should be significantly stiffer than the FT690. Tell us what you liked more on the FT690.

That has been my belief too. I think the pitch of the boot, the blade and the profile makes the biggest difference to my skating. Being pitched on the toes helps acceleration during those first few steps. A single 9' or 10' allows for a lot of lateral moves while it is a bit sluggish speed-wise. A 13' has more speed but can give the feeling of being on skis, making it more difficult to change direction. etc etc. I think I will be able to skate just as "agile" in the AS-Vs as the Vapors if I manage to replicate the pitch.

I started dropping an eyelet in the Vapors, they need it as the boot is so tall, it locks your leg in place and doesn't allow for much forward flex. I was so slow and immobile when they were laced all the way up, so I'm continuing this habit in the Tacks, even though it is a much shorter boot. The top eyelet on the AS-V is level with the second from the top on the Vapors (the one I use). When I drop an eyelet in the Tacks, that's the equivalent of the third eyelet on the Vapors. It's crazy but it works because the boot is so stiff, I love it.

I skated in them again today and I have to say they are amazing skates, the fit is really good. I didn't have the same problem getting on my edges so maybe I've already adjusted or I had an "off" day last time. The skates still have certain characteristics though, which makes them like and dislike certain movements. The marketing is kind of true, but I am not sure if it is because of the skate or the pitch. If I judge them as they are, the Tacks want you to skate a certain way and it rewards that. Long strides, crossovers in wide turns with speed, straight forward or backwards with speed, they are very fast, speed is the keyword for these skates. If I try to skate like I do with the Vapors; many fast but short crossovers in rapid succession, it doesn't like it and it feels like I'm working against the skate. The steel at the toe is like going up a hill, it does not flow thru the motion as well as the Vapors. The skate is not ready to go up on the toe after a short stride, it begs you to take longer strides. When you have taken a long stride, the skate is ready and it flows through the motion smoothly, rockering from heel to toe. Upon further thinking. I attribute this to the pitch of the boot and the angle it creates between your legs and feet. My weight is more on the middle of the blade, (in a neutral and in a upright position) and in the Vapors my weight is in front of the middle of the blade. The latter makes the skate "ready" for rockering through the toe after a shorter stride. I think I can profile (suggestions are welcome) an extra set of steel for the Tacks, to have more pitch and allow those movements. The pitch is something I can experience, but how much the actual boot contributes to "agility" vs "power" I cannot tell. As they come, the Tacks are better at medium to top speed (long strides, stability, wide turns) while the Vapors are better from a stand still to medium speed (acceleration, short strides, quick moving feet). I have test fitted many models the last month and the AS-V and AS-V Pro stand out above the rest. I really like the AS-Vs and they skate really well. I will be keeping them and invest in some extra steel to experiment with. Don't get me wrong, they skate really well with the standard 10' profile too, for what they are meant for, so I will keep the stock blades as they are and have an extra set with more pitch to change things up. EDIT: I skated for an hour in the Tacks then directly switched to the Vapors for another 45min, to have a direct and fresh comparison with no other variables changing.

Aha I see. From reading comments, I got the impression that these profiles significantly put you on your toes and I was afraid it would become too much if the skate was already pitched. Perhaps it is not that bad.

I would love to see a scientific test proving that, but I doubt that little amount of material makes or breaks the holder.

I love this! Bauer clearly put that block in the channel to prevent people from using their old steel. There is no need for a bevel on the blades, there is no bevel on CCM Step steel. It's nice to see people found a workaround so all their old steel won't go to waste.

I read that they have the pivot point moved back 20mm on Quad and Zuperior profiles. In neutral skates, I would like it, but if you are in a boot that is already pitched, like Vapors, it might become too much. Is it possible to remove the PP/Pitch from a Quad or Zuperior Profile, or should player in Vapors look at other profiling alternatives? If it is possible to profile them neutral. How is it done, what instructions should the tech follow?

Wow, I'm glad I'm not the only one that has experienced this. That's a relief! I will give them another chance and try them again later in the week, see if I can get used to them, before doing anything drastic.