walkerdb7
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Posts posted by walkerdb7
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19 hours ago, mojo122 said:Just takes a leap of faith that the custom fit is better than any of the retail models. What would be useful to know is the number of helmets made so far and the number where the fit is off. For me I feel as if I have a good fit with the 150.
I am sorry, I don't have those exact figures.
For the development phase, we helped Bauer build like 500ish helmets before they got their own machine in house. They don't share the specifics of how many they produced since taking over the production. You definitely won't have like helmet 11 if that is at all a concern.
These pro and retail helmets are produced in Blainville.
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21 hours ago, VegasHockey said:Many pros are wearing the Tacks X custom helmet and can't say I have seen any wearing the custom Bauer helmet.
FWIW, I know quite a few pro equipment managers and they also haven't seen any of their players using the custom Bauer helmet.
Cale Makar has worn it for a couple seasons now. He wore during his Conn Smyth campaign. Eichel wore it from day 1 in Vegas. Other Bauer athletes like Suzuki, Caulfield, etc are wearing it too. All of team Canada had them at the WJC, which got cancelled.
Some of the Instagram equipment accounts have caught on, here's pics of NHL guys in it:
https://www.instagram.com/p/Cn4t2rApvzA/?img_index=1
https://www.instagram.com/p/CnxhqyKOwNn/Here's the "lost" team canada pic:
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1 hour ago, Hills said:But isn't the Bauer helmet like the custom skates part? You are taking an existing shell, then adding custom printed parts to the existing shell along with the existing stock padding. I'm not saying you need a new shell to make a fully custom product, but I am saying having all of that stock padding in there makes it hard for me to believe this is the best fit possible from the 3D scan and fit process.
If VT takes another poor fitting helmet and throws it on their sample I am sure it will get a low rating. Not sure how VT could do a test of the myBauer custom made one without someone at Bauer knowing about the scan that comes through.Thank you, the additional clarification helps me understand what you are saying better.
I am very familiar with the skate scan, assembly, and manufacturing processes. That is completely apples and oranges from what's happening with the 3D printing in the helmets.
No one is creating the individual piece components of ankle padding, the footbed, or tongue on-demand from scratch based on your unique scan in the skate world. The equivalent process of making the individual liner components from scratch is what's happening with the helmets. With skates, they are customized with stock pieces of materials in fixed sizes that are sitting on the shelf waiting for an order. The unique combination of the stock materials is what makes them custom to order.
Yes, not every inch of the Bauer liner is done with 3DP. That was done to match Bauer's design goals within the balancing act I keep referring to, of safety, fit, and weight/breathability. As far as customization goes, though, all the key areas, such as the frontal areas, crown, and occipital lobe, are 3D printed. That is where you will most notice the fit differences compared with a stock helmet. If someone has an abnormal lump on the very top of their head, then they could be an outlier from fully enjoying this helmet, but I believe you're getting into the 1-2% of people scenarios now.
As I stated above, it's my understanding that the helmet should be tested by VT. I won't know anything more until it's publicly available, though. If VT does not test it, I will be disappointed. I am dying to see the results myself, assuming it performs like I would expect.
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4 minutes ago, marka said:Howdy,
This is definitely going to be a struggle. I dunno the price point on this thing but I'm guessing its high. And even though I'm pretty invested in keeping my head safe, comfort, have enough disposable income, etc. etc. etc. "Just trust us you'll like it" probably isn't going to do it. There really needs to either be a generous return / "we'll make it right" policy or I'm going to need a good bit of real world experience from folks taking the leap and reporting back that the helmets are great.
MarkFully understand that. That is not a part of the equation my organization. I want to see Bauer succeed because it's a great innovation and it helps my company, so I am trying help out with questions about the process or what to expect. The business model part or fit guarantee is between the retailers and Bauer.
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10 minutes ago, marka said:Howdy,
Definitely interesting. And yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing results on VT as well.
For the scanning process... Is that done by touch or by 'sight'? I'm just wondering how you all deal with hair, basically.
MarkYour wear like a dri-fit material swimming sort of cap. It flattens out all of your hair like it would fit in the under the helmet.
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34 minutes ago, Hills said:I compared the Bauer demo helmet to the CCM demo helmets. Both weren't custom fit to my head. So pretty fair comparison there.
Couldn't Bauer simply add the lattice on top of the padding that is already on the sides to give an entire wrap fit instead of just certain points? Based on how everything else Bauer is doing recently seems more like a cost cutting or weight saving solution rather than making the best possible product.Why are you showing the results of a non-custom fit helmet from VT? There are enough posts on this board going over that study as is, so we won't dive in there. But clearly CCM knows something considering they are still number 1 on that list no?
Are you suggesting that the myBauer helmet will end up on that list? Pretty interesting that they don't have a scanned and custom fit CCM helmet there.Like I mentioned in my earlier post, the CCM retail display feels better to most people and I say "most people" because feel is subjective. I'm not trying to argue here and I totally get your point. I talked to a local Pure Hockey manager, who I coach with, and he told me the same thing. The CCM helmets feel softer to the touch and are more comfortable when you try them on in the store. CCM did a great job with that.
But here's what's totally different with a scan to print product, the helmets you see in the store aren't going to feel 1:1 with the custom helmets customers receive. Digitally created custom-fit helmets are a new thing, we need to think a bit differently, and trust the process. The helmet liner does not really smush or compress into your head like a traditional foam liner.
This isn't like custom skates where they tweak regular stock parts to fit your feet better. They scan your feet and then best fit you into an existing skate last or size. It's also not like traditional custom goalie masks where they add or remove some padding to make it fit right. With these custom helmets, they start from scratch and each liner is digitally created to match your unique head shape.
So, instead of thinking, "The CCM display feels great, so it will feel better than the Bauer", my hope is that people understand "the Bauer helmet is digitally created for me. The final product will be a perfect fit, without pain points or hot sports, and the retail model is just a display to help me understand what the final product looks likes". Unless you order a custom Bauer helmet, you won't really know how it'll feel on your head.
That's the tricky part about this project—for consumers, there's no way to try it on and see how great it is until you actually buy one. There's no test run.
This website still survives because it's the most educated and hardest core hockey consumer. That's why I am here to share some thoughts and help out potential buyers or anyone curious.
I can't say for sure if VT will test the Bauer helmet, but I hope they do. VT usually buys the helmets themselves for testing. We won't know the results until the test is done and they share the info, but I'd bet that the myBauer helmet gets a good rating and beats 1 star.
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21 hours ago, marka said:Howdy,
The technology here is pretty neat. Fast/scalable (I assume?) 3d printing of helmet foam definitely seems like a great idea / 'the future'.
Of course, the hard part here is how we judge the most important part of a helmet, which is how much it protects your head in an impact along with how much the weight affects your head in a whiplash situation. My struggle is how I would ever be able to evaluate that as a consumer. Its easy for me to judge comfort & looks, but comfort is very much a 2nd criteria for me and looks pretty much doesn't matter at all.
During 3d printing, are you adjusting the type / make up of the foam to get stiffer / less stiff foams as you go? In the motorsports helmet world, it seems like there are two very distinct types of foam... Impact foams and then comfort foams/liners inside that. I'm not sure that hockey helmet design is doing similar stuff though.
Also, I assume there are only a couple standard shell sizes, and then you're 3d printing foam to end up more or less thick to adjust for different head dimensions?When you're printing the foam, are you doing it 'flat' and then performing some process to bend that foam to install it in the helmet? Or is the 3d printed foam literally 3d and you could pop it on someone's head as is (for instance, not that you'd actually do that).
MarkYes, it's scalable, but that is still the most challenging part. Traditional foam materials are relatively inexpensive and die cutting sheet foam or molding foam is faster than 3D printing. 3D printing is more of a top price point technology right now and I wouldn't expect to see it in any lower price point / value products in the next few years
For protection, the best think I can think of VT ratings? I know it's not perfect and people could find flaws in it, but I don't see any equipment OEMs publicly presenting safety data. VT is the only neutral source I am aware of? I would expect this helmet to be rated there and I check for it personally, I want to see that we did a good job.
Yes, hockey helmets have the same concept. There are foams specifically designed for safety or absorption and others designed for comfort. That is why traditional helmets have multiple foams inside the liners. They are designed to balance weight, comfort, and safety. With 3D printing, you vary the diameter of the lattice strut, the shape of the cell, and/or the base feed stock material to reach the same goals. Our IP, which Bauer uses, is about the lattice shapes morphing into each other. That will most closely mimic the traditional concept of multi-density foams fused together.
Yes, the shell is the same as the Re-Akt 150. The software decides if you are a S, M, or L shell and then it wraps the lattice around your unique head shape, creates a build file, and then the parts are built.
The parts are printed contoured / round and uniquely to your head shape. The parts look like a piece of cantaloupe almost. Check out the images I posted above. Top right image is exactly what the printed part looks like. It's contoured.
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On 9/10/2023 at 6:24 PM, Hills said:I too saw a custom "demo" one of these and it felt horrible. Not just because it wasn't fit to my head, but I don't understand why it isn't a full head wrap like the CCM one is. Why leave what looks to be stock REAKT padding in the scanned and custom helmet.
The 3D printed material is a lot stiffer (maybe more dense) than NestTech, but it wasn't comfortable at all. Where the "Fit" demo helmets CCM has are WAY more comfortable.
As a general statement, heavier materials are more dense. More dense materials are going to absorb energy. Absorbing energy is a key design in helmet safety. Making a lighter helmet which is still safe is incredible hard. It's not any different than trying to maintain a certain level of durability as the sticks get lighter and lighter.
I don't represent Bauer and none of the statements I am sharing are from Bauer
But, I give talks about this helmet all the time at 3D printing trade shows, technical conferences, media events, etc. The information I am sharing is the EOS side of the story and some of my opinions / observations. I have worked with helmet companies in football, military, baseball and cycling too. My company supported a team which won $1,000,000 from the NFL to pursue a next generation helmet. I share that info not to be annoying, but to add context to my opinions that I am sharing.
If you haven't tried a custom to you fit Bauer helmet, it's unfair to say the CCM helmet is more comfortable? They key point to the Bauer helmet is that it's based off a scan of your head. I have one and it honestly feels like nothing is on my head when I'm playing.Above is an insider peak at how the software works. The red spots in the large image show your potential pressure points in a stock helmet. One of the capabilities is that the customization software compensates for that. CCM created a lattice that is softer to the touch, shows better at retail, and/or feels better in a fitting setting, that I completely agree with. It's an optics thing, but I feel it's a clear distinction to make.
From my personal opinion on this topic, you're most expensive helmet can't be the worst helmet in independent test studies? So when you focus too much on comfort / breathability and light weighting, other aspects of the helmet design will fall off. The reason there is not more lattice everywhere or that it's not softer is concerns about making something which wouldn't meet the on ice performance requirements.I am personally checking VT every week, but I want to see the myBauer results and it's hope and expectation that it performance in line with traditional material.
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On 9/10/2023 at 8:41 AM, stick9 said:That's a sizable leap given the cost, no? Things have become too expensive to simply "try" and there is no reselling a one off custom helmet.
Not trying to be a complete downer. Costs are getting insane and I feel like they don't really care.
Yes, there is a leap of faith in trusting the process.
I also am a hockey player and a hockey dad too. The cost of goods is not lost on me. I will say it was weird working on a product I knew would be more expensive, just knowing the guys I play men's league with would bust my stones about it.From what I have seen... I can say from getting to know the Bauer team, they do care. It's a topic on every single call. It's even a concern with NHL equipment budgets. But I think that solution from like the 3X or 3S or SFS exclusives being really well designed for the price? At that top price point, it's about pushing boundaries. That requires new materials, R&D, etc and the price reflects that.
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3 hours ago, Westside said:Appreciate what you’re trying to do, but clearly we’ll agree to disagree. I’ve made two comments about having already bought into 3D printing technology, provided examples of my products I enjoy, and you’ve bashed both. What you like and what I like are clearly different. That’s not to say either of us are right or wrong, it’s personal preference
Sorry if that offended you, but I was not "bashing" either product. If my wording left it open to that interpretation, that was not at all where I was going. My purpose was sharing my opinion as someone who is on the inside of this every day, and may or may not work on the brands or products referenced. I was including our own UA shoe into this mix too.
For 3D printing to reach its full main stream potential, products need to offer a tangible end benefit to the consumer and we need to move past buying them because they are “cool” or novel. A custom fit helmet is a great example of 3D printing proving a unique value.
In my opinion, If Runner's World was to compare the newest 4D shoe, which is supposed to be a performance shoe, to the Nike Alpha Fly 2 at similar price points, I would anticipate the Alphafly would win. It's not saying 4D is a bad product, it's providing insider feedback on why those products haven't completely taken over the market.4D is probably the number 1 polymer application which has created awareness for the long term potential of the 3DP technology. I have a ton of respect for what was done there. Brings me joy when I tell new acquaintances what I do for work and they say "like those Adidas shoe, those are so cool".
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17 minutes ago, Westside said:
Apart from the Tacks X helmet, I’ve owned multiple pairs of adidas 4D shoes, ASICS Actibreeze sandals, and a number of smaller items like lens hoods for cameras. I work in automotive where our sister company experimented with 3D parts made from titanium. So I am all about 3D printed products and do feel it’s the futureIMO, the Adidas shoes and the ASICS shoes are still not "there" yet. We did a shoe with UA and I would lump into the same category. Very cool concept, but I find the 4D shoes or the UA shoes to be less comfortable and more expensive than traditional shoes. Hard sell for the general market.
We have some parts off our Ti machines in production on the Ford GT. Metal is an entirely differently story than plastics. -
For the basketball, when/if it comes to retail on/or it gets launched, get ready for something more exclusive than any pair of Jordans…
As for the Nest Tech, that’s one of the reasons I wanted to come on here and answer some questions? I hear comments like that and I think that hockey consumers might need to embrace thinking differently as 3D printing becomes more commonplace. You might need to take a bit of a leap of faith on a custom product.
With 3D printing, it’s the ultimate flexibility in design. You can adjust the cell geometry, the thickness of the struts, and the material used to create the lattice. You can tune things in a way literally unimaginable with sheet foam or molded foams. The IP my company developed, which Bauer included in their design, is around different cell shapes flowing or morphing into each other. This would be the equivalent of traditional dual density liner foam liners. No other 3D printing technology can offer that.
Each change will impact the performance of the end part. IMO, there is basically a balance of engineering trade offs of weight, comfort/breath ability, and protection. If you go too far in any 2 design directions, you will greatly sacrifice the 3rd. If you focus too heavily on lightweight and comfort, you will sacrifice protection.
However, with the head scanning technology, the “comfort” is sort of irrelevant? The helmet pictured above is based off a scan of my head. It’s tad snug to pop on and then it feels like you are wearing nothing while playing. There are no pressure points because it’s made 1:1 for your head. Makar wore the prototype on the way to the Smyth.
So yes, it will feel less squishy on the retail shelf to head to head, but this will be most comfortable helmet you’ve ever owned if you get one. It’s also way more breathable and shouldn’t sacrifice protection compared with the traditional foams.
Please fire away with more questions! The intersection of work and hockey is a dream come true and I’d like to answer as many technical or behind the scenes questions as I can.
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You may have noticed a proclivity towards Bauer in a few of my recent posts about updating my gear…
The reason is that I recently had the opportunity to work with Bauer professionally, so it’s nice to repay the favor, haha.
I work in 3D Printing. My company created the concept and owns the IP around Digital Foam, which Bauer engineered into the myBauer Re-Akt. For reference, we also worked with Wilson and helped develop the 3DP basketball that was used in the NBA dunk last year too.
Send me any questions? As long as they don’t cross confidentially, I’ll answer them as deeply as I can.https://www.bauer.com/pages/mybauer-reakt-custom-hockey-helmets
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16 hours ago, mojo122 said:Just the opposite for me. Longtime Supreme guy who just switched to Vapor. MX3, 1S, and 2S Pro all had injected facing/eyelets which I really liked. With the Ultrasonic they went traditional facing/eyelets as part of making a distinct differentiation between the two top tiered skates. Have My Bauer Ultrasonics which I really liked. Having the ability to skate in the Machs I felt that the amp facing with the insert between the second and third eyelet made the skate feel too flexible for me when compared to the Ultrasonics.
The injected eyelets on the 3X Pro and 5X Pro are tough on cloth laces until the roughness wears down. Haven't really seen that on the Hyperlite and Hyperlite 2. The cutouts in the injected in the upper portion of the Hyperlites also allows for better wrap than the those of the 5X Pro.
deep info, thanks
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On 9/1/2023 at 5:11 PM, Westside said:Have you bothered to try on either skate yet?
"bothered" haha, not yet. Using this post as preliminary research so I am as educated as a buyer as I can be when I walk into purchase.
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4 minutes ago, Cavs019 said:I am a lifetime Vapor guy who recently switched to fit 1 Machs and the eyelet mechanism differences are reason enough to choose one model vs the other. In my experience:
- Traditional Mach eyelets: easier to tie, wrap around my foot better after baking, flex better.
- Vapor injected system: stiff, doesn’t wrap that well, shreds laces, feels weird and inhibits forward flex.
YMMV. You can dial in pitch differences et al with a good profile, lifts, etc. My prior Vapors were custom with traditional eyelets but I’m assuming you’re looking at off the rack here. I don’t feel MOAR POWER or LESS AGILE vs my old Vapors but the Machs certainly fit great which helps me maximize what I have as far as skating ability. I also will take an all black skate over the abominations that are the new Vapor designs any day of the week.thank you, great feedback
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6 minutes ago, shoot_the_goalie said:I don't know what to tell you.... Are you asking if Vapors make you more agile, and Machs make you faster, etc.? Is a mid-kick for slap shots (and defensemen), whereas a low-kick is for snappers (forwards)? IMHO that's all marketing, cause good shooters can rip slappers with low-kick sticks, and fast skaters can be super agile in Machs and vice versa. If you're asking for something that suits you best, then that's a different question. Sure, there's all personal preference and I understand that. I prefer mid-kick sticks, cause that's what I'm used to, but I can shoot just as well with a low-kick. But if you think by buying Vapors over Machs you're going to be more agile but lose speed (with fit being equal), then you're falling for the marketing jargon. Like I said before, the biggest difference in the product lines for skates is fit. Go with the one that fits you best, not which one promises more of certain skill attribute.
Now we are getting somewhere... Yes, obviously, I don't expect Mach to make me skate like Makar and HL2 to have me moving like Bedard, but can someone actually articulate the differences in them and how they them feel on the ice? That might help me understand if the design of Vapor might be worth switching out of Supreme for.
The comment above about skating on the heels in Mach is the type insight I was hoping for. -
2 hours ago, shoot_the_goalie said:Pretty much all marketing jargon, but there are some differences in the actual boots. Mostly fit, but also some boots are stiffer in certain areas than others. However, I'm sure Connor McDavid will still skate like Connor McDavid regardless of which boot he puts on if you get what I mean.
I get that, but comments like that bug me too. I am not a pro and don't much care what they use. Most of them avoid change anyway because they comfortable with a certain product. Has 0 to do with what works best for me.
I also feel like Bauer employs legit engineers to design the skates, test them, and makes sure there are distinctions with both lines. Looking at sticks as an example, I got to mess with a few different models. I notice a difference shooting with a Vapor and a Nexus stick. I also think a top price point stick is noticeably better performing than a mid price point one.
Can I score a goal with all of them? Yes, absolutely. But, when I am going to go use my hard earned dinero on a stick, I feel like a high end nexus performs better for me. That makes the game more fun for me
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Isn't the point of Fit 2 mean they should fit the same? I figured the difference in tendon guard, tongues, eyelits, etc would translate to some different feeling or flex on the ice?
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SUPREME MACH is designed to boost your stride length and maximize your top end speed
HYPERLITE 2 skate is built for pro-level and pro-aspiring players looking for maximum quickness and unrivaled agility
WTF does this mean?
I am a fit 2. Eyeing up purchasing that "last pair" pair mentality. Normally play goalie, but coaching my son and on the ice a lot more. Skating out a bit more and might not play net for too much longer. Current skates are the OG One100s.
How the heck do I know which boot design works my skating style? haha. Can I get a golf fitting for skates? -
it does not happen to me too often, but agreed, I feel like I can avoid it all together
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Thanks! Sometimes they fold in and 1/2 the marketing photos online show them in the wrong position. Wanted to double check. About to try and shape / mold them a bit so they don't fold into the elbow cap anymore
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Are Vapors like normal elbow pads where the elbow flexes under the forearm pad
or is it a unique design and the forearm rotates into the elbow?
myBauer Re-Akt Helmet - 3D Printed Digital Foam
in Ice Hockey Equipment
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There are using the EOS P770. I don't believe the specifics of helmets per build are information we should be sharing, but it's a solid number.
The process is set up so that 1 lot of helmets finishes every 24 hours. We are not building to full height and letting the machine sit unattended for multiple days. This ensures that the machine is not a bottle neck for post processing, assembly, shipping, etc.