Datsyuk vs. Thornton

[Datsyukiandeek 0]

draper and lang?

Datsyuk and Zetterberg... Lang is the problem in Detroit, get rid of him and trade for a winger like Guerin and this team is golden.

My idea of next years lineup:

Holmstrom(1.4 mill)-Zetterberg(2.65mill)-Samuelsson(1.2 mill)

Kopecky(500K-Datsyuk(6 mill)-Guerin(2 mill)

Franzen(941K)-Draper(2.128 mill)-Cleary(662K)

Langfeld(550k)-Filpulla(710K)-Hudler(710K)

Lidstrom(7.6mill)-Kronwall(3 mill)

Lebda(650K)-Chelios(850K)

Markov(2.5 mill)- Kindl(650K)

Hasek(1 mill)

MacDonald(600k)

$36,301,000

Add in roster players in grand rapids and call ups + the possible bonuses of Cheli and Hasek and we will still have plenty of room under the cap. I personally would rather have that team instead of the current.

[Eazy_b97 1]

and I said even without Lemieux, he was surrounded by talent on his playoff teams.

And whats your point? Most playoff teams are talented. Kovalev, Straka, Lang are all second tier players. Ron Francis was really the only amazing player besides Lemieux. You also cannot make the claim that Thornton was/isn't surrounded by talent, seen the sharks roster lately? The Detroit situation is exactly like the San Jose one, two bonefied #1 centers on both rosters.

I thought we were comparing career numbers? Boston was a terrible team from a depth perspective. That "depth" player Robert Lang was brought in because the superstar Datsyuk can't produce in the playoffs.

Now you believe Datsyuk in Detroit is the same as Thorntons in SJ, so we'll use just those numbers.

Regular season:

Datsyuk - .87 PPG....If you want to go over the last 2 seasons it's 1.09PPG

Thornton - 1.43 PPG

Playoffs:

Datsyuk - .35.... If we are going by last playoff its still .6PPG

Thornton - .818PPG

[Eazy_b97 1]

and I said even without Lemieux, he was surrounded by talent on his playoff teams.

Boy, an excuse for everything.

How'd he do for you last year Theo? With a similar situation Thornton faced in Boston. Jagr's a much better playoff performer over his career, but he's also much higher paid, and has played the majority of his career on better teams.

[Eazy_b97 1]

Cracked ribs.

Similarities are upper body, limits movement, pain on contact, becomes target. Forgot the injury in his other MTL series, I believe a break in his hand where he had trouble holding his stick.

Both players had injuries and couldn't fight through them.

[Eazy_b97 1]

Why? Because the recovery time is different?

You're reaching in your defense of Jagr. He underperformed to his expectations last playoffs. Whether it was due to the injury or not is really irrelevant if nobody else gets a free pass for it. I'm not saying Jagr wasn't incredible hurt and as a huge disadvantage. What I am saying is so was Thornton.

[Datsyukiandeek 0]

and I said even without Lemieux, he was surrounded by talent on his playoff teams.

And whats your point? Most playoff teams are talented. Kovalev, Straka, Lang are all second tier players. Ron Francis was really the only amazing player besides Lemieux. You also cannot make the claim that Thornton was/isn't surrounded by talent, seen the sharks roster lately? The Detroit situation is exactly like the San Jose one, two bonefied #1 centers on both rosters.

I thought we were comparing career numbers? Boston was a terrible team from a depth perspective. That "depth" player Robert Lang was brought in because the superstar Datsyuk can't produce in the playoffs.

Now you believe Datsyuk in Detroit is the same as Thorntons in SJ, so we'll use just those numbers.

Regular season:

Datsyuk - .87 PPG....If you want to go over the last 2 seasons it's 1.09PPG

Thornton - 1.43 PPG

Playoffs:

Datsyuk - .35.... If we are going by last playoff its still .6PPG

Thornton - .818PPG

Lang was brought in because Fedorov was gone and it was a terrible trade. Datsyuk had been in the league for two seasons, he was on the dream team, playing fourth line minutes and did fairly well in the playoffs. Then the next season the Ducks held the Wings, not just Datsyuk, the whole team down in scoring. That team had Fedorov, Hull, Shanahan, and Robitalle. To place that early exit solely on Datsyuk's shoulders is an insult. The 2003 team had Shanahan, Lang, Whitney, Hull and Datsyuk. The offense really wasn't the problem, our defense was horrible. Cujo stood on his head in the Calgary series but the Wings couldn't stop them from scoring.

In 2005, as I mentioned, Datsyuk had missed the last month leading up to the playoffs and didn't start skating until the week before. He had 3 assists in 4 games, not spectacular at all. Legace choked and our defense was shakey at best.

Now im not saying Datsyuk is some playoff beast but to consider him a compelte bust after this short of a time period is a little ridiculous.

[warrior37 0]

will you ever admit datsyuk is over rated and perhaps over paid?

[Datsyukiandeek 0]

will you ever admit datsyuk is over rated and perhaps over paid?

Overpaid? Hes making $3.9 mill this season and is scoring at a point per game. Which other player is leading a team in scoring for less? Obviously Ovechkin.. Crosby..

[warrior37 0]

how much does zetterberg make?

[Datsyukiandeek 0]

how much does zetterberg make?

2.65 mill. He signed a long term contract the year after his rookie season, so yes its a steal but people shouldn't get used to the number, he'll be making ALOT more once his new contract comes around.

EDIT: Hes unnrestricted in for the 2009-2010 season.

[warrior37 0]

will you ever admit datsyuk is over rated and perhaps over paid?

Overpaid? Hes making $3.9 mill this season and is scoring at a point per game. Which other player is leading a team in scoring for less? Obviously Ovechkin.. Crosby..

zetterberg, afinogenov, ray whitney, ryan smyth, frolov, rolston, souray, straka, nylander, recchi, dan sedin, and alex semin all make less than datsyuk and either have more points thus far this season or lead their team in scoring. and also i dont buy this ppg crap, i could have a 1 ppg average if i played chicago 8 times, nashville 8 times, st louis 8 times a year

[Datsyukiandeek 0]

will you ever admit datsyuk is over rated and perhaps over paid?

Overpaid? Hes making $3.9 mill this season and is scoring at a point per game. Which other player is leading a team in scoring for less? Obviously Ovechkin.. Crosby..

zetterberg, afinogenov, ray whitney, ryan smyth, frolov, rolston, souray, straka, nylander, recchi, dan sedin, and alex semin all make less than datsyuk and either have more points thus far this season or lead their team in scoring. and also i dont buy this ppg crap, i could have a 1 ppg average if i played chicago 8 times, nashville 8 times, st louis 8 times a year

Datsuyk: $3.9 mill 52 points, 53 games

Zetterberg: $2.65 mill 52 points, 56 games

Afinogenov: $3 mill, 56 points, 51 games

Whitney: $1.5 mill, 65 points, 57 games

Frolov: $2 mill, 56 points, 57 games

Rolston: $2.432 mill, 46 points, 54 games

Souray: $2.432 mill, 44 points, 55 games

Straka: $3.1 mill, 58 points, 54 games

Nylander: $2.28 mill, 58 points, 51 games

Sedin: $3.75 mill, 55 points, 54 games.

Don't make it out to be anything more then it is. Nobody on that list is blowing Datsyuk away except Whitney, who was forced to sign a cheap contract when he was cut from the Wings.

Semin and Recchi were left off for obvious reasons.

[Eazy_b97 1]

Lang was brought in because Fedorov was gone and it was a terrible trade. Datsyuk had been in the league for two seasons, he was on the dream team, playing fourth line minutes and did fairly well in the playoffs. Then the next season the Ducks held the Wings, not just Datsyuk, the whole team down in scoring. That team had Fedorov, Hull, Shanahan, and Robitalle. To place that early exit solely on Datsyuk's shoulders is an insult. The 2003 team had Shanahan, Lang, Whitney, Hull and Datsyuk. The offense really wasn't the problem, our defense was horrible. Cujo stood on his head in the Calgary series but the Wings couldn't stop them from scoring.

In 2005, as I mentioned, Datsyuk had missed the last month leading up to the playoffs and didn't start skating until the week before. He had 3 assists in 4 games, not spectacular at all. Legace choked and our defense was shakey at best.

Now im not saying Datsyuk is some playoff beast but to consider him a compelte bust after this short of a time period is a little ridiculous.

You're the one who wanted to bring playoff numbers into all of this, not me. I was fine with the regular season considering thats the only time players are paid.

Your argument is essentially Datsyuk wasn't the best player on his team, and his team choked. Then you say he deserve Thornton money, because Thornton was the best player on his team, and they choked. Now I'll take the better hockey player if there will be choking anyways. The numbers are up there and Thornton has outperformed Dats in his career, in the playoffs, and recently. There's no comparison.

Sure he did, as did the team.

He played 2 games and 30 seconds of another game.

But he does not underperform every playoffs like Thornton has. You are talking about a guy who has more than a PPG during the playoffs compared to a guy who has .6 PPG playoffs. Get a grip

And your excuses that he has always played with great players...Well, he had no one last year and he had one of his best seasons ever and carried a team on his back at 33-34 years old. Enough said.

You've always hated Jagr which is obvious, so I don't hold the hate against you. If not for Jagr, the team wouldn't even be in the playoffs last year

He definately doesn't always perform like he did last season. I never made that claim. I did say when Thornton was surrounded by a very good team, he played very well. I've claimed Jagr did the same, only better. Understandable.

Don't get your panties in a knot. I don't hate Jagr, I've just told it like it is. He had a great start to his career, bitched out in Washington and got it back on track in NYR. I've never said otherwise. Just because I don't kiss his ass over everything doesn't mean I dislike him. You need to take off the Rangers sweater and evaluate things in general. I have no claime Thornton to be better than Jagr. The fact is I actually dislike Thornton, but I can put aside the bias and see he's a good hockey player. Better than Jagr last regular season, not over his career though.

[warrior37 0]

Don't make it out to be anything more then it is. Nobody on that list is blowing Datsyuk away except Whitney, who was forced to sign a cheap contract when he was cut from the Wings.

Semin and Recchi were left off for obvious reasons.

most of those players are making close to a million less dollars, and why leave off recchi and semin?

[Datsyukiandeek 0]

Lang was brought in because Fedorov was gone and it was a terrible trade. Datsyuk had been in the league for two seasons, he was on the dream team, playing fourth line minutes and did fairly well in the playoffs. Then the next season the Ducks held the Wings, not just Datsyuk, the whole team down in scoring. That team had Fedorov, Hull, Shanahan, and Robitalle. To place that early exit solely on Datsyuk's shoulders is an insult. The 2003 team had Shanahan, Lang, Whitney, Hull and Datsyuk. The offense really wasn't the problem, our defense was horrible. Cujo stood on his head in the Calgary series but the Wings couldn't stop them from scoring.

In 2005, as I mentioned, Datsyuk had missed the last month leading up to the playoffs and didn't start skating until the week before. He had 3 assists in 4 games, not spectacular at all. Legace choked and our defense was shakey at best.

Now im not saying Datsyuk is some playoff beast but to consider him a compelte bust after this short of a time period is a little ridiculous.

You're the one who wanted to bring playoff numbers into all of this, not me. I was fine with the regular season considering thats the only time players are paid.

Your argument is essentially Datsyuk wasn't the best player on his team, and his team choked. Then you say he deserve Thornton money, because Thornton was the best player on his team, and they choked. Now I'll take the better hockey player if there will be choking anyways. The numbers are up there and Thornton has outperformed Dats in his career, in the playoffs, and recently. There's no comparison.

Sure he did, as did the team.

He played 2 games and 30 seconds of another game.

But he does not underperform every playoffs like Thornton has. You are talking about a guy who has more than a PPG during the playoffs compared to a guy who has .6 PPG playoffs. Get a grip

And your excuses that he has always played with great players...Well, he had no one last year and he had one of his best seasons ever and carried a team on his back at 33-34 years old. Enough said.

You've always hated Jagr which is obvious, so I don't hold the hate against you. If not for Jagr, the team wouldn't even be in the playoffs last year

He definately doesn't always perform like he did last season. I never made that claim. I did say when Thornton was surrounded by a very good team, he played very well. I've claimed Jagr did the same, only better. Understandable.

Don't get your panties in a knot. I don't hate Jagr, I've just told it like it is. He had a great start to his career, bitched out in Washington and got it back on track in NYR. I've never said otherwise. Just because I don't kiss his ass over everything doesn't mean I dislike him. You need to take off the Rangers sweater and evaluate things in general. I have no claime Thornton to be better than Jagr. The fact is I actually dislike Thornton, but I can put aside the bias and see he's a good hockey player. Better than Jagr last regular season, not over his career though.

Not even close, my arguement, has been all along that your're comparing a player whos been in the league for a decade to a player whos been in for five years. In the first five years of each players career, Datsyuk has out performed Thornton..

Thornton's first five years: 247 points, 355 games

Datsyuk's first five years: 262 points, 337 games

Thornton's first five years in playoffs: 13 points, 23 games

Datsyuk's first five years in playoffs: 15 points, 42 games

To say Thornton has out performed Datsyuk is ridiculous, if anything they're stats are onpar with each others. Is Thornton more valueable? Obviously, that comes with 5 more inches and 40 more pounds.

[mack 44]

Isn't Datsyuk older than Thornton?

Oh shnap.

[Datsyukiandeek 0]

Don't make it out to be anything more then it is. Nobody on that list is blowing Datsyuk away except Whitney, who was forced to sign a cheap contract when he was cut from the Wings.

Semin and Recchi were left off for obvious reasons.

most of those players are making close to a million less dollars, and why leave off recchi and semin?

Recchi is riding shotgun with Crosby and Semin just signed his second contract, after holding out for a season. You can't include players with special circumstances, Whitney, Recchi and Semin all fit into that category. Sedin is another one, he plays with his brother, he always has and he always will. Do you think hes gonna go for the huge money? The nucks aren't gonna pay the Sedin's the max, they both will get less then they could on the open market.

As a matter of fact half the players you listed will probably be making more then Datsyuk is now when their contract is up.

Isn't Datsyuk older than Thornton?

Oh shnap.

Whats your point?

[mack 44]

My point is your arguments aren't very good.

I also don't see how Semin has "special circumstances" but oh well.

[Datsyukiandeek 0]

My point is your arguments aren't very good.

I also don't see how Semin has "special circumstances" but oh well.

Datsuyk comes into the league at 24 and is producing at a point per game. Thornton, takes 6 years to finally reach this same plateau and is equally terrible in the playoffs. I can't see why Datsyuk should be making a sugnificant amount less then Thornton. Is Thornton size with $3 mill more then Datsyuk's equally producing hands?

[mack 44]

Again that point is invalid. They're the same age, what's the difference? Don't give me some crap about "oh well Datsyuk wasn't honing his skills in the NHL all that time." You must not know or have forgotten that during his first 1+ seasons Thornton played sparingly and when he did, his line consisted of two ice cops.

Like I said earlier, wrapped up in unbiased truth, is at best Datsyuk will get Gomez money.

[Datsyukiandeek 0]

Again that point is invalid. They're the same age, what's the difference? Don't give me some crap about "oh well Datsyuk wasn't honing his skills in the NHL all that time." You must not know or have forgotten that during his first 1+ seasons Thornton played sparingly and when he did, his line consisted of two ice cops.

Like I said earlier, wrapped up in unbiased truth, is at best Datsyuk will get Gomez money.

Did I ever state anything differently? I said he would get a contract similar to Savard.. 5 years, 25 mill. This whole argument stemed from the fact that people think he won't get Thornton like money. On the right team he would, will it be the Wings? No

Although the cap is going up alot over the next two seasons.. 48 mill next year and 52 the year after.

[mack 44]

By "right team" you mean a team with a lot of cap room that is in dire need of someone they can pass off as a marquee player.

As for you not saying different re: Gomez money, your estimated figures for what Datsyuk will be making are what I took as you not agreeing with that.

[Datsyukiandeek 0]

By "right team" you mean a team with a lot of cap room that is in dire need of someone they can pass off as a marquee player.

As for you not saying different re: Gomez money, your estimated figures for what Datsyuk will be making are what I took as you not agreeing with that.

You don't think the Flyers would offer Dats $6-7 mill long term next season? Obviously theres a price the Wings will pay and a price the rest of the league will pay, that can be said for any player. A 5 year, $30 million dollar contract isn't unreasonable for the Wings to resign their leading scorer, especially with the cap increasing.

[warrior37 0]

hes tied in the lead for points and not leading in goals or assists

[Datsyukiandeek 0]

hes tied in the lead for points and not leading in goals or assists

Tied for the lead with less games played, aka leading the team in points.