Are atheists morally unaccountable?

[Chadd 916]

That leads into the second part of your post, that the churches can't be blamed for the actions of their followers. You're right, they can't be.

You're assuming that the church isn't stocking the fires of the people who go overboard. How many agnostics have killed doctors who perform abortions? What about the ministers who rail endlessly about the evils of homosexuality, only to have their church members "misinterpret" their teachings and assault or kill someone? Those people are the christian equivalent of islamic extremists and they exist all over the country.

My current favorite is the Phelps clan that celebrates/protests the death of American servicemen and women. They're fundamentalist nutjobs.

That said, the vast majority of people, devout or otherwise, are not the problem and I think we will all acknowledge that. These cases are the minority, they just make more headlines than the large percentage who do nothing more than honor their creator in their own way every week on their sabbath. As for why christians get singled out in the US, it's the largest segment of related faiths. Just like Easton gets the most complaints about sticks because they're the top dog in the market space, christians are going to catch the most crap over their actions.

[sabre09923 0]

My current favorite is the Phelps clan that celebrates/protests the death of American servicemen and women. They're fundamentalist nutjobs.

Link'd

That said, the vast majority of people, devout or otherwise, are not the problem and I think we will all acknowledge that. These cases are the minority, they just make more headlines than the large percentage who do nothing more than honor their creator in their own way every week on their sabbath.

And that's what headlines are for: the people/events that are or do things that are extraordinary. Nobody's going to make headlines over doing something just like everyone else, it's the people that deviate from what would be considered "ordinary" that grabs the news' attention, whether they do something that's good or bad (though it leans toward the latter side nowadays).

[hattrick74 0]

That said, the vast majority of people, devout or otherwise, are not the problem and I think we will all acknowledge that. These cases are the minority, they just make more headlines than the large percentage who do nothing more than honor their creator in their own way every week on their sabbath. As for why christians get singled out in the US, it's the largest segment of related faiths. Just like Easton gets the most complaints about sticks because they're the top dog in the market space, christians are going to catch the most crap over their actions.

just a thought, but if out of 100 Christians, 1 of them bombs an abortion clinic, does that change ones views/beliefs about Christianity?

I have said this before here, but the true essence of Christianity has nothing to do with religion, its a relationship. The church today has completely lost sight of this and that is where the corruption and problems begin.

[Jason Harris 31]

And the Billions upon Billions of dollars that have been donated to Katrina Relief, the Tsunami relief and other disasters count for nothing? what about the scores and scores of people who went to these disaster areas to just be there for people and help them out? i witnessed this 1st hand back in march when i was in New Orleans, the people are still in tough shape but alot of what gets them through the day is the hope that more people are coming to help, and a majority of those people are religous.

You're right. We have been overlooking the good that religious organizations do. As generous as members can be with their tithihng, I suspect a decent percentage of them wouldn't be as charitable on their own.

where did i say churches cant be blamed for the actions of their followers? what i am saying is that the church is no where near perfect and no one should ever expect them to be. show me where Jesus ever "convinces" others to believe (with your idea of convincing seeming to be forceful) All one can do as a follower of Christ is plant the seed and allow God to do the work, i am sorry that so many have mis-interpreted this to be convert by the sword.

I'm sorry, I was sort of responding to a number of posters who seemed to be suggesting that we're supposed to separate the followers' actions from the church, yet I didn't read your response closely enough.

That said, it's not fair to limit the discussion to what Jesus said, since there's another half of the book and people on the fringe will pick the passages they need to justify their actions. Further, Christianity may be the largest religion in the world, but it only comprises 1/3 of the population. Take away the non-believers and 1/2 of the world's population practice different religions. And some followers of those relgions do bad things at the behest of their leaders - the Madrassas of Islam being the most obvious.

That leads into a chain of thought that someone brought up earlier in the thread. Could those people be considered to be acting morally, since they are only doing what they have been taught? In the strictest sense, I suppose so, but these people aren't living in a vacuum. They are commiting acts that the majority of the world, including the majority of their religion, would consider heinous. And I'm not limiting this to Muslims.

[Jason Harris 31]

just a thought, but if out of 100 Christians, 1 of them bombs an abortion clinic, does that change ones views/beliefs about Christianity?

That's an interesting question.

I'd certainly blame the individual, but there seems to be something about feeling the Ultimate Arbitror is agreeing with their actions that emboldens these nutjobs.

I've had people tell me, "They'd find something else to fight about," when I've said too many wars have been fought over religion. So an interesting question in return is would these people's actions be as severe without this sense of validation?

As for why christians get singled out in the US, it's the largest segment of related faiths. Just like Easton gets the most complaints about sticks because they're the top dog in the market space, christians are going to catch the most crap over their actions.

So, you're saying they should offer a longer warranty, eh?

[usahockey22 0]

So, you're saying they should offer a longer warranty, eh?

Or maybe just start selling indulgences again...it could save people a lot of time! (and guilt)

[Chadd 916]

I'm confident you live life by the Ten Commandmants, whereas I stated that I live by the Eight Commandants.

Have you ever seen Carlin's routine on the ten commandments?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CitfTtMIx8

By the way, isn't the final number of commandments in the hundreds or thousands?

[usahockey22 0]

I love Carlin's standup on religion...the masters of bullshitters: the clergy!

And yea, there are a few hundred actual commandments. Some orthodox Jews actually adhere to them all, however dated or obscure they may be.

[sabre09923 0]

Have you ever seen Carlin's routine on the ten commandments?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CitfTtMIx8

By the way, isn't the final number of commandments in the hundreds or thousands?

That was excellent. Down to three commandments it is...

EDIT: Since I don't want to double post, I'm going to add another section of debate to my original post.

Does anyone here think that the term "God" is really an abstract term, and doesn't actually mean that there is a supreme creator? I know it sounds a bit farfetched, but all the parts where the word "God" appears could just be a way to express things the writers just couldn't explain (creation of the universe, how man came to be, and so on).

[Jason Harris 31]

I'm confident you live life by the Ten Commandmants, whereas I stated that I live by the Eight Commandants.

Have you ever seen Carlin's routine on the ten commandments?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CitfTtMIx8

By the way, isn't the final number of commandments in the hundreds or thousands?

No shit? Whoops, now I'm down to the Seven Commandments...

Does anyone here think that the term "God" is really an abstract term, and doesn't actually mean that there is a supreme creator? I know it sounds a bit farfetched, but all the parts where the word "God" appears could just be a way to express things the writers just couldn't explain (creation of the universe, how man came to be, and so on).

Obviously, I'm answering from the perspective of one who doesn't believe, but I think the answer is yes and no.

I believe Man created God to explain the unexplainable; I believe Man created Heaven to give comfort to the living, particularly the young; and I believe Man created Hell as a means of scaring people into acceptable behavior.

That's the Yes portion of the answer, while the No portion is there obviously are people who believe a being is out there who exerts some measure of influence. Thus, they would say there are no unexplainable events.

[hattrick74 0]

I believe Man created God to explain the unexplainable; I believe Man created Heaven to give comfort to the living, particularly the young; and I believe Man created Hell as a means of scaring people into acceptable behavior.

While i agree that some people in the church would use Hell and heaven in that way, i believe the true reason for being a Christian has nothing to do with either hell or heaven, but deals wholly with the relationship.....

off topic, salming thanks for the advice in the batman topic, i just netflixed justice league unlimited...

[Jason Harris 31]

You sound like someone who is content in that relationship -- and that's a good thing.

To continue the off topic, I hope you enjoy the series as much as we do. As one who decided that if I needed to wear a tie again, I'd create a "uniform" and wear superhero ties exclusively, I always look forward to word of something new hitting the screen. It's always disappointing when they target it solely to kids (like Teen Titans or Fantastic Four animated). Justice League was quite the opposite, appealing to young and old.

By the way, Justice League Unlimited is essentially Season 3. They started with two seasons of Justice League, then had three seasons of JLU.

[Jason Harris 31]

By the way, isn't the final number of commandments in the hundreds or thousands?

Well, however many there are, they just increased by ten yesterday. The Vatican released their Ten Commnandments for driving:

1) You shall not kill.

2) The road shall be for you a means of communion between people and not of mortal harm.

3) Courtesy, uprightness and prudence will help you deal with unforeseen events.

4) Be charitable and help your neighbour in need, especially victims of accidents.

5) Cars shall not be for you an expression of power and domination, and an occasion of sin.

6) Charitably convince the young and not so young not to drive when they are not in a fitting condition to do so.

7) Support the families of accident victims.

8) Bring guilty motorists and their victims together, at the appropriate time, so that they can undergo the liberating experience of forgiveness.

9) On the road, protect the more vulnerable party.

10) Feel responsible toward others.

I must say that Number 5 calls to mind Meat Loaf and Phil Rizzutto

[Chadd 916]

By the way, isn't the final number of commandments in the hundreds or thousands?

Well, however many there are, they just increased by ten yesterday. The Vatican released their Ten Commnandments for driving:

1) You shall not kill.

2) The road shall be for you a means of communion between people and not of mortal harm.

3) Courtesy, uprightness and prudence will help you deal with unforeseen events.

4) Be charitable and help your neighbour in need, especially victims of accidents.

5) Cars shall not be for you an expression of power and domination, and an occasion of sin.

6) Charitably convince the young and not so young not to drive when they are not in a fitting condition to do so.

7) Support the families of accident victims.

8) Bring guilty motorists and their victims together, at the appropriate time, so that they can undergo the liberating experience of forgiveness.

9) On the road, protect the more vulnerable party.

10) Feel responsible toward others.

I must say that Number 5 calls to mind Meat Loaf and Phil Rizzutto

Ok, since I am me I have the following questions:

Are these now sins that require confession and penitence like the "real" ten commandments?

Can you now go to hell for not supporting the family of an accident victim or not being charitable to a neighbor?

What if it's not an intentional expression of power, ie you like a car for another reason but it projects an aura of power?

Would the feeling of being morally superior for owning a hybrid qualify for being an expression of power, or is that ok?

Did god finally realize that he needs to legislate cars, or was this a decision by a committee of men? If it was the latter, does that reduce their credibility or were they struck by divine inspiration?

On a more serious note, does the vatican getting involved in something as trivial as this diminish their sense of authority? To take something so revered as the ten commandments and create something that is so patronizing astounds me.

[sabre09923 0]

Would the feeling of being morally superior for owning a hybrid qualify for being an expression of power, or is that ok?

No, it's not okay. When you feel morally superior for owning a hybrid, God makes your battery run out and makes the tow truck take an extra hour to pick you up. I've seen it happen at least ten times now.