Youth hockey in the Denver are

[Bane 1]

I am looking at potentially moving to allow my son who is very into hockey to have a chance at succeeding. My question is, does Denver offer enough competitive youth hockey to give him the chance to succeed? Currently in southern California, the opportunities are very limited. We do not even have a college with a division one hockey program as Denver does.

Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Jamy

[Project824 0]

The youth hockey may be marginally better, but he'll still need to leave home by the time he's 14-15-16 if he's going to "make it". He may even be better off in SoCal if he's playing for the right team.

Is your son's hockey the only reason you're moving? That's putting a lot on the 1 in 10,000 chance he might get a scholarship.

[wickedwrister 0]

I don't know where in California you live, but LA Hockey seems to put good teams on the ice. If you have the ability to move where you want (don't know if Colorado has some significance) for hockey, I say MI, WI, MN.

[Bane 1]

The youth hockey may be marginally better, but he'll still need to leave home by the time he's 14-15-16 if he's going to "make it". He may even be better off in SoCal if he's playing for the right team.

Is your son's hockey the only reason you're moving? That's putting a lot on the 1 in 10,000 chance he might get a scholarship.

His hockey wouldn't be the only reason. Cost of living would be another. Why do you say he would have to leave home by 14? Some quick research shows the Denver area having a couple of AAA travel programs requiring only $1500 in travel compared to 15000 currently being spent by parents here?

I don't know where in California you live, but LA Hockey seems to put good teams on the ice. If you have the ability to move where you want (don't know if Colorado has some significance) for hockey, I say MI, WI, MN.

There have been very few players from California make it. In fact the only California players to make it so far that I know of are, Scott Parker from San Jose, and Blum who was just drafted in the first round by Nashville.

Thanks for the comments so far guys.

[Project824 0]

The youth hockey may be marginally better, but he'll still need to leave home by the time he's 14-15-16 if he's going to "make it". He may even be better off in SoCal if he's playing for the right team.

Is your son's hockey the only reason you're moving? That's putting a lot on the 1 in 10,000 chance he might get a scholarship.

His hockey wouldn't be the only reason. Cost of living would be another. Why do you say he would have to leave home by 14? Some quick research shows the Denver area having a couple of AAA travel programs requiring only $1500 in travel compared to 15000 currently being spent by parents here?

I don't know where in California you live, but LA Hockey seems to put good teams on the ice. If you have the ability to move where you want (don't know if Colorado has some significance) for hockey, I say MI, WI, MN.

There have been very few players from California make it. In fact the only California players to make it so far that I know of are, Scott Parker from San Jose, and Blum who was just drafted in the first round by Nashville.

Thanks for the comments so far guys.

Cost of living is a fair reason to move, and the Denver area is sprouting up like crazy. Now's a good time to move in there, but I suspect in a few years their cost of living will have grown exponentially, not to SoCal numbers, but much more than it is now.

I say he would have to leave home between 14 and 16 because most kids that "make it" end up going to prep school, junior or even billeting as young as 14/15 to play for some of the better AAA programs in the country (think Michigan). Even kids from MN, MI and Mass end up playing for junior teams not so close to home on their quest for a scholarship; and those areas are filled with quality HS, prep, Midget and Junior programs. Coming from California or Colorado won't matter, how many quality junior programs are there around? Prep schools? The closest hockey prep powers are Shattuck's in MN and Culver in IN. Players from either state playing NCAA or pro hockey have spent substantial time playing for teams far away.

RE: the California players - That would depend on your definition of "make it". If you're talking strictly about making the show, then you might as well think MN, MI and MA and that's it. Very few other states have produced too many true NHLers. If we're talking about playing NCAA DI, being drafted or getting to play pro hockey of some form, I think that California has put on a respectable showing given hockey's a relatively new game there, and the fact that they see snow in LA once a decade. The Cal Selects, LA Jr. Kings, Cal Wave, have all put on good showings at USA Hockay Nationals in recent years. There are many more players from CA in the NHL alone.

From the way you're talking, you seem to be setting the bar pretty high for the kid - what if he doesn't make it? CO would offer a good experience for him to play growing up, but call it a childhood and make it a family move; not a career move for him.

[wickedwrister 0]

I hate to burst your bubble, but $1500 for competitive travel hockey is a pipe dream. My son plays for one of the better programs (if not the best smile.gif) in the mid-west and although his ice bill was fairly reasonable ($2,200 for 3 1.5hr sheets of home ice a week), the season ended up costing apx. $7,000 after gas and hotels. Most of the best tournaments are in the Mid-West and Toronto areas, so count on coming this way often. I know the Colorado T-Birds are pretty good and they are on this side of the continent all the time. I am not trying to be a jerk, but if you play West of the Mississippi, be prepared to go all the way if you want to give your child the best opportunity.

[Bane 1]

I hate to burst your bubble, but $1500 for competitive travel hockey is a pipe dream. My son plays for one of the better programs (if not the best smile.gif) in the mid-west and although his ice bill was fairly reasonable ($2,200 for 3 1.5hr sheets of home ice a week), the season ended up costing apx. $7,000 after gas and hotels. Most of the best tournaments are in the Mid-West and Toronto areas, so count on coming this way often. I know the Colorado T-Birds are pretty good and they are on this side of the continent all the time. I am not trying to be a jerk, but if you play West of the Mississippi, be prepared to go all the way if you want to give your child the best opportunity.

No offense taken. I appreciate the candid information. I figured the travel costs might be a bit underestimated, but that figure is still a lot better than the $14 or 15K parents are spending out here.

The youth hockey may be marginally better, but he'll still need to leave home by the time he's 14-15-16 if he's going to "make it". He may even be better off in SoCal if he's playing for the right team.

Is your son's hockey the only reason you're moving? That's putting a lot on the 1 in 10,000 chance he might get a scholarship.

His hockey wouldn't be the only reason. Cost of living would be another. Why do you say he would have to leave home by 14? Some quick research shows the Denver area having a couple of AAA travel programs requiring only $1500 in travel compared to 15000 currently being spent by parents here?

I don't know where in California you live, but LA Hockey seems to put good teams on the ice. If you have the ability to move where you want (don't know if Colorado has some significance) for hockey, I say MI, WI, MN.

There have been very few players from California make it. In fact the only California players to make it so far that I know of are, Scott Parker from San Jose, and Blum who was just drafted in the first round by Nashville.

Thanks for the comments so far guys.

Cost of living is a fair reason to move, and the Denver area is sprouting up like crazy. Now's a good time to move in there, but I suspect in a few years their cost of living will have grown exponentially, not to SoCal numbers, but much more than it is now.

I say he would have to leave home between 14 and 16 because most kids that "make it" end up going to prep school, junior or even billeting as young as 14/15 to play for some of the better AAA programs in the country (think Michigan). Even kids from MN, MI and Mass end up playing for junior teams not so close to home on their quest for a scholarship; and those areas are filled with quality HS, prep, Midget and Junior programs. Coming from California or Colorado won't matter, how many quality junior programs are there around? Prep schools? The closest hockey prep powers are Shattuck's in MN and Culver in IN. Players from either state playing NCAA or pro hockey have spent substantial time playing for teams far away.

RE: the California players - That would depend on your definition of "make it". If you're talking strictly about making the show, then you might as well think MN, MI and MA and that's it. Very few other states have produced too many true NHLers. If we're talking about playing NCAA DI, being drafted or getting to play pro hockey of some form, I think that California has put on a respectable showing given hockey's a relatively new game there, and the fact that they see snow in LA once a decade. The Cal Selects, LA Jr. Kings, Cal Wave, have all put on good showings at USA Hockay Nationals in recent years. There are many more players from CA in the NHL alone.

From the way you're talking, you seem to be setting the bar pretty high for the kid - what if he doesn't make it? CO would offer a good experience for him to play growing up, but call it a childhood and make it a family move; not a career move for him.

I'm not trying to set the bar high, I just want him to be in a place where he will have more of an opportunity if he decides to go that direction. The Cal Wave is the only team I know of having real success.

In general the move would be for the family, but with being as interested in hockey as my son is, I'd like the opportunities to play at a highly competitive level to be available. The opportunities here just seem too limited.

Thanks again for the info.

[Edge 0]

Colorado is a good choice. A good friend of mine moved there to play for the AAA program(T-birds) this past season. I considered it also, but decided to stay here in AZ and play for a local AAA program, and play Juniors in state for this upcoming season. He played there for one season...liked it there a lot, but ended up coming back to AZ for this season. The talent level among our southwest states is pretty similar(excluding a certain few), but Colorado seems to be a much simpler run place for it (such as not as outrageous prices to play).

Colorado has a few AAA programs in a pretty close range, so you will get some in-state competition which is pretty nice. They also have some good Junior teams there, as well as top notch hockey colleges like Denver and CC to shoot for. It would just be a less hectic route than places like my own and SoCal for your boy.

By the way, if you have any questions about the programs around there, feel free to ask as I have been around the "scene" there quite often.

Also, regarding Cal's success, I know this past season LA hockey club had arguably the best u16AAA team in the country in my opinion. It was baffling to me that they did not win nationals because the team worked so well together..

[Bane 1]

Colorado is a good choice. A good friend of mine moved there to play for the AAA program(T-birds) this past season. I considered it also, but decided to stay here in AZ and play for a local AAA program, and play Juniors in state for this upcoming season. He played there for one season...liked it there a lot, but ended up coming back to AZ for this season. The talent level among our southwest states is pretty similar(excluding a certain few), but Colorado seems to be a much simpler run place for it (such as not as outrageous prices to play).

Colorado has a few AAA programs in a pretty close range, so you will get some in-state competition which is pretty nice. They also have some good Junior teams there, as well as top notch hockey colleges like Denver and CC to shoot for. It would just be a less hectic route than places like my own and SoCal for your boy.

By the way, if you have any questions about the programs around there, feel free to ask as I have been around the "scene" there quite often.

Also, regarding Cal's success, I know this past season LA hockey club had arguably the best u16AAA team in the country in my opinion. It was baffling to me that they did not win nationals because the team worked so well together..

So from what you are saying, the travel should be less and so should the cost?

Since you seem to know a lot about this,in general do you think there would be more opportunities in Colorado than here in So. Cal?

Thanks

[Edge 0]

I wouldn't say the travel would be less, as they will go to the big tournaments in the east, etc. just as a So. Cal team would, but you will be able to have competition in state. The team costs excluding travel should be significantly cheaper though, at least thats what I have heard from those who have/do play there.

And yes, in my opinion there are definitely more opportunities (especially in-state) in Colorado. If he is good, he will be found regardless of where you live as long as he plays at a high level, but there is just more exposure in CO on a general note.

[onetwo 0]

I have alot of expierience in AAA hockey. It depends how old your kid is. the first year most players move away for is bantam major year (second year bantam). What team does your kid play for now? There are many good programs in SoCal, LA Hockey Club/Selects, California Wave, LA Jr.Kings and others. These teams play in all the top tournaments and pretty much every year a California team makes it to nationals. If your kid is good enough he will be fine in California. There are actually players that are MOVING TO PLAY IN CALIFORNIA NOW. As for moving to Denver...if you want to move I would say if your that serious you should move to Detroit. There are 5 top teams (Little Caesars, Compuware, Honeybaked, Victory Honda, Belle Tire). All of these teams play in the MWEHL. (Mid West Elite Hockey League). You could go try out for these teams, but usually the teams contact the player about moving to play for there team.

So I guess my point is California > Colorado right now. Notable California teams, 88' California Wave produced NHL draft picks Rhett Rhakishani and Cameron Cepek I think they won Nationals one year. 89' California Wave produced Jon Blum they came second in Nationals one year and won many AAA tournamnets. There have been other Cali teams before that but I am too young to remember them. There are many more high end California players on the way.

LA Hockey Club 2004 Pee Wee AAA 2nd Place at National Championships

LA Hockey Club 2005 Pee Wee AAA 2nd Place at National Championships

LA Hockey Club 2006 Bantam AA National Champions (First year Bantam Team)

LA Selects 2006 Bantam AAA National Champions

California Wave 2006 Midget 16 AAA National Champions

LA Hockey Club 2007 Bantam AAA 2nd Place at National Championships

I hope that helped

[Hkydog 0]

Don't want to burst your bubble but the travel cost to play Midget Major AAA in Colorado was approx. 10k three years ago. While there are a few more AAA Midget programs now they are still less than 6. Kids come from all over the country and are billeted here for the AAA programs. As far as playing for CC or DU coming from CO means nothing. Both recruit heavily out of state and that includes Air Force. I don't think CC has anyone from Co. now on their roster and DU maybe has 2 guys, and if memory serves me they were walk ons. One more thing what junior programs in CO? There hasn't been one in quite awhile. There are some great programs in Colorado but if finding your son a way to D1 and the show is your goal Colorado probably isn't the place.

[Bane 1]

The oppinions reflected here are 50/50, I'll have to keep looking into it.

Thanks for the comments everyone.

[forsberg91 0]

I've lived in Colorado all of my life. There are some pretty good AAA programs around here. You've got the Thunderbirds as already mentioned (probably the best). Rocky Mountain Wranglers, Pikes Peak, and Colorado Outlaws (2 teams, Maj AAA and Junior A. coached by former NHLer Doug Smail. Was my coach when i was a little kid.)

Overall it seems pretty good

[Edge 0]

There is no doubt that the opportunities are there in California...very good opportunities. But he is considering other things, such as cost of living to make this decision.

If you are looking to strictly move to advance your son in hockey, then there are more effective places to look other than california or colorado, but without making that huge jump across the country, I believe there are more opportunities and more of a hockey atmosphere in Colorado.

[hocckey77 0]

How old is your son?

[hock20 0]

I moved at age 14 to play hockey in Colorado for the Thunderbirds AAA at Air Force, although we were very good top 5 in the country it cost a lot of money because we traveled everywhere. I then made the move to Michigan at age 15 to play for Compuware AAA in Plymouth and it was much cheaper for my parents and the hockey was much much better than colorado way more competition locally and everyone wanted to come to play us. Colorado is ok but I would not put it very high on my list. I have played in Colorado,Boston,Michigan,and BC. Colorado was at the bottom of my list.

California on the other hand is much better than Colorado hockey wise. The Cali Wave, Aneheim Jr. Ducks, LA selects, and Jr. Kings are all very good so I say stay in Cali if you dont want to go to a place like michigan.

[Hkydog 0]

Got a question for you what level and age group is you son playing now? If you really want to move to a hockey "hotbed" with opportunities then you need to consider the 3Ms, Mass, Michigan, and Minnesota, anything else is going to be of less value.

[Bane 1]

My son is young, so right now it is not a huge deal, we are looking to get out of Cali due to the ridiculous real estate prices. So it is a case of if we are going to do a major move, we would like it to be to an area that has good opportunities for hockey in addition to a good job market and lower than So Cal real estate prices. Denver seemed like a good match for both criteria.

[Langenbrunner15 0]

If your biggest concern is hockey, Ontario or Detroit is the place to go. Both have greeat hockey and play in each others 'state' a lot.

[Jason Harris 31]

I my son is young. So right now it is not a huge deal, we are looking to get out of Cali due t the ridiculous real estate prices. So it is a case of if we are going to do a major move, we would like it to be to an area that has good opportunities for hockey in addition to a good job market and lower than So Cal real estate prices. Denver seemed like a good match for both criteria.

It really depends how you define "good opportunities for hockey."

It's been 9.5 years since we lived in SoCal, but my memory is there are more arenas in Denver that are within about 35 miles of each other than LA offered. On the other hand, I'll trust other people's judgement that the California teams are better. That said, if "good opportunities for hockey" means giving a child a better chance to make college or pro hockey, then I don't think it matters where someone lives. Maybe superior coaching and competition could bring someone up one rung on a scale of 1 to 10, but someone is either a world class athlete or he's not.

What's interesting is one of the Avs has essentially co-coached our children's baseball team with me this spring, and we've had a number of conversations about how crazy youth sports have become.

* He told me he said his sons' hockey organization, "Hey, we have 200 players in the organization. Are you telling me we can't stack the lines so our top players can play against each other? We have to drive to Fort Collins to get proper competition?"

* Then they wanted his son to play summer hockey. "I NEVER played summer hockey when I grew up." "But, Walter, he'll fall behind if he doesn't play!" "And if he's good enough, he'll catch up after three weeks."

* Finally, the practices were going to 5:30 AM for his eight-year-old, so he told them he was going to have to pull his sons, because he wasn't going to have his wife wake up all three kids to get to the rink whenever he was on a road trip. The organization expressed that that would also hurt his son's growth.

The bottom line is it's humorous that the parents who didn't make The Show are telling the professional athlete what it takes for his son to go further in the sport. He agrees with me. The top athletes are born top athletes.

So, besides hockey, would Denver be a good area for your family to move to from LA, particularly if one wanted to take advantage of the equity from the LA market? Possibly. There are areas of Denver that offer a similar personality to LA; the job market has finally picked up after a down 3-4 years; the roads can be bad but nowhere near LA traffic; the foothills are 30 minutes away, while the mountains are 60-90 minutes; and the housing dollar travels much further. (When we moved here in 1997, we spent $40K more and went from an 1/8 of an acre and 1600 square feet to an acre and 3500 square feet. Since that time, our house has increased by about 60%, while my father-in-law has shown us clippings to suggest the former house has tripled.)

I think a big question is weather. Denver's weather is both colder and hotter than SoCal's. I much prefer it myself, since I now find SoCal to be too humid, but not everyone would agree with me.

[wickedwrister 0]

I my son is young. So right now it is not a huge deal, we are looking to get out of Cali due t the ridiculous real estate prices. So it is a case of if we are going to do a major move, we would like it to be to an area that has good opportunities for hockey in addition to a good job market and lower than So Cal real estate prices. Denver seemed like a good match for both criteria.

It really depends how you define "good opportunities for hockey."

It's been 9.5 years since we lived in SoCal, but my memory is there are more arenas in Denver that are within about 35 miles of each other than LA offered. On the other hand, I'll trust other people's judgement that the California teams are better. That said, if "good opportunities for hockey" means giving a child a better chance to make college or pro hockey, then I don't think it matters where someone lives. Maybe superior coaching and competition could bring someone up one rung on a scale of 1 to 10, but someone is either a world class athlete or he's not.

What's interesting is one of the Avs has essentially co-coached our children's baseball team with me this spring, and we've had a number of conversations about how crazy youth sports have become.

* He told me he said his sons' hockey organization, "Hey, we have 200 players in the organization. Are you telling me we can't stack the lines so our top players can play against each other? We have to drive to Fort Collins to get proper competition?"

* Then they wanted his son to play summer hockey. "I NEVER played summer hockey when I grew up." "But, Walter, he'll fall behind if he doesn't play!" "And if he's good enough, he'll catch up after three weeks."

* Finally, the practices were going to 5:30 AM for his eight-year-old, so he told them he was going to have to pull his sons, because he wasn't going to have his wife wake up all three kids to get to the rink whenever he was on a road trip. The organization expressed that that would also hurt his son's growth.

The bottom line is it's humorous that the parents who didn't make The Show are telling the professional athlete what it takes for his son to go further in the sport. He agrees with me. The top athletes are born top athletes.

So, besides hockey, would Denver be a good area for your family to move to from LA, particularly if one wanted to take advantage of the equity from the LA market? Possibly. There are areas of Denver that offer a similar personality to LA; the job market has finally picked up after a down 3-4 years; the roads can be bad but nowhere near LA traffic; the foothills are 30 minutes away, while the mountains are 60-90 minutes; and the housing dollar travels much further. (When we moved here in 1997, we spent $40K more and went from an 1/8 of an acre and 1600 square feet to an acre and 3500 square feet. Since that time, our house has increased by about 60%, while my father-in-law has shown us clippings to suggest the former house has tripled.)

I think a big question is weather. Denver's weather is both colder and hotter than SoCal's. I much prefer it myself, since I now find SoCal to be too humid, but not everyone would agree with me.

Not to change the subject (stay with me here and I will get back on track)...Hockey has changed big time since the pros were playing youth hockey. 25 years ago hockey was a one season deal. Everyone played something else in the warm weather months so yeah, most "pros" will tell you that they did not need spring/ summer leagues and camps to keep up with the Jones'.

Short story for you.....When my son first went from house to travel, one of the coaches was NHL drafted back in the day and the other played 4 years of D1 in the CCHA. When it became obvious that my son was above average I went to both guys seperately at the end of the season and told them I was thinking about AAA. They both said that it was a waste of money, too much pressure, not necessary for him to develop, AND "I never played AAA when I was a kid". After a few weeks of talking to AAA parents and others, we made the jump. If you have ever seen the difference between A/AA and a true AAA game you would fall out of your chair. The speed of the game is not even close and EVERYONE out there can skate, pass, and shoot. There are no "house" players to round out the roster like you get with many travel programs.

Anyway, back to my point. 2 years later, the coach who was NHL drafted is now coaching (with his son playing) one of the AAA teams in the league and the D1 coach is bringing his son to our summer skates. Here in MI, the Red Wings who have hockey playing kids play AAA or high level prep school hockey so I am sure they see some benefit. I can't say that I will be able to afford AAA forever, but I will give it a shot for my boy's sake.

If you can make a living anywhere and want to move because this is all about your son, I would say your opportunities are greater in the East. In the long run, you will probably save money with cost of living, ice bills, and travel expenses. I am pretty sure I have wondered off course, but there is my $.02.

[Jason Harris 31]

I understand what you are saying and realize these kids have the opportunity to play their sports against equivalent competition, but the important question is are they changing the end result?

Let's make up a scale. We'll say superstars are 10's, stars are 9's, solid players are 8's, role players are 7's, shuttlers are 6.5's and minor leaguers are 6's, college players and major juniors are 5.5's, D3 and minor juniors are 5's, AAA travel teams are 4's, AA teams and good beer league teams are 3's, and ankle benders are 1's.

The question is how many spots can a player jump by specializing in a sport? There's no doubt that when we are talking about the 7's to 10's, it has little to do with all the travel teams and summer camps and more to do with the players were fortunate to be born with genetically gifted bodies. These are the type of athletes that you could take out to the tennis court or golf course to teach them the game, but by the end of the afternoon they are beating you. They are just born better than 99% of us.

I've read a number of articles over the past 15 years discussing the death of the 3-Sport lettermen. I'm sure the research is difficult to quantify, but the gist of most of these articles is there hasn't been a lot of evidence that specializing in a sport has won kids more scholarships. Yet coaches have been using fear tactics on parents that they are retarding their kids growth by not making the kid choose.