Graf G9 fit: some confusion

[Law Goalie 147]

Small update:

Found a pair of Nike V12s in 8EE to try on, which produced some interesting results.

First, *loved* the toe box: immediately a big improvement. Surprisingly, the skates were very tight across the forefoot, just behind the toes (I have a big pad/bulge behind my pinkie toe). This resulted in a surprising amount of pain after fifteen minutes. The rest of the skate - arch, heel and ankles - felt a bit sloppy, which I attributed to the skates being about a half size too big, and not having proper supportive insoles.

However, the real problem is still volume: my feet were bursting out of the eyelets across the arch. These skates fit better than anything else I've ever tried, in that respect, and they were still noticeably shallow. Christ on a bike...

[pjf 0]

I am sure if you were willing to make a drive out of the gta to pickering, burlington, hamilton or Brantford, you will find dealers with 709's in stock to try on.

P

[JR Boucicaut 3806]

Small update:

Found a pair of Nike V12s in 8EE to try on, which produced some interesting results.

First, *loved* the toe box: immediately a big improvement. Surprisingly, the skates were very tight across the forefoot, just behind the toes (I have a big pad/bulge behind my pinkie toe). This resulted in a surprising amount of pain after fifteen minutes. The rest of the skate - arch, heel and ankles - felt a bit sloppy, which I attributed to the skates being about a half size too big, and not having proper supportive insoles.

However, the real problem is still volume: my feet were bursting out of the eyelets across the arch. These skates fit better than anything else I've ever tried, in that respect, and they were still noticeably shallow. Christ on a bike...

V12 is a figure 8 shape (wide toebox, narrower fore/midfoot, wide heel)

[Keith 0]

The v12 heel always felt more deep/contoured than it ever did wide per se. You sort of get a suction effect with it.

[Law Goalie 147]

V12 is a figure 8 shape (wide toebox, narrower fore/midfoot, wide heel)

Thanks JR - that was exactly what I felt. I gotta say - it's nice to have things cogently described. I also tried a Quest, which was utterly wrong for me.

Was the Flexlite a different fit than the V-series? I still haven't found one to try on. I'm hoping it'll be deep as hell with a wide toe, wide forefoot, normal midfoot and relatively narrow heel. Some massive arch support might help, too.

Then again, maybe I could just get my Daousts punched out next to the big toe, and swap in a nice, thin modern tongue.

[DamnLocust 0]

Just an fyi regarding the 8090s: I tried on a pair tonight that I'm trading for from a friend, and they are wider in the forefoot than my 709s, but from what I can tell, the Grafs are deeper.

Once I get them and have a chance to have them on my feet for a bit, I'll update.

[Law Goalie 147]

Much appreciated - keep me posted.

[Sven 1]

I think i am in the same boat as you, Law Goalie.

I tried several pairs/brands and i ended up in 8090s. Best invested money ive ever spent. And this is not just a phrase. My 8090 are kinda beat up, but when they are done, i rather try to get a new pair (which will be either hard and/or pricey) instead of getting a similar pair.

[Law Goalie 147]

Update:

I happened to be passing by a PIAS today, and dropped in. Apart from a surprising number of Micron 10-90s in decent shape, I was finally able to find a pair of Flexlite 9s in 7D.

My immediate impression was that the 7Ds were about 1/2 size too small. That impression bore out through the rest of the fitting. Yet even though they were a half size small, and a fairly low-end version of the Flexlite skate, they were the best fitting skates I've ever tried on.

Even with my big toe jammed against the end of the toecap, the toebox was the most comfortable I've ever felt, width-wide.

The forefoot, even though my foot was a little too far forward in it, was exactly the right shape: wide, with a nice round bulge on the outside of the foot. The midfoot was so well fitted that I actually had substantial arch support, despite the 5¢ cardboard insoles.

I finally understand, now, what people mean by "heel suction." To put it another way, my heels fit snugly in my Daousts; but the heels of the Flexlites were fitted to my heels. The ankles felt a little 'cheap', but were plenty high enough and offered lots of support with a surprising amount of forward flex.

It seems I've found my perfect skate. I've also learned that the new Flexlites (18, 16, 14) should be in stores relatively soon, with the 18 around $500 and the 16 around $250.

Now I just need to find a pair of 8090s to try on. I guess I'd be about an 8D in 8090s, if I'm a 7.5D in Flexlites and Daousts, right?

[Law Goalie 147]

Yet another update, in case anyone cares:

I had a chance to try on a bunch of my potential skates, and none have met with success.

I tried Flexlite 12s in 7.5D and 8.0D. The 7.5D was a great fit in the heel and ankle, but gave me the same old pain above and under the arch from lack of depth, as well as major cramping on the outside of my big toe in the toebox. The 8.0D was a better fit depth wise, but too sloppy in the heel and midfoot, and definitely too long. Generally, I was less impressed with the Flexlite line after I had a long time to feel them on my feet. I suspect that you've got to have a absolutely perfect fit for these to work - they're extremely unforgiving skates where my feet are concerned.

I then *finally* found some G9s and G70s to try on in my Graf size range (8R and 8.5R) at my LHS. This produced some very interesting results.

First, I can say with some assurance that the G70 is *not* as deep as the G9. Both the 8 and 8.5 in the G70 were WAY too shallow for my foot, and were too painful for me to stand up after about five minutes. The LHS guy was so shocked that he offered to bake the skates just to see whether they'd fit - and they still didn't. The G70 was a complete miss.

The G9s, however, were more promising. I ignored the fact that the Graf toecaps were incredibly narrow, since they can be easily stretched out. The 8.0R G9 was a surprisingly tight squeeze lengthwise, so I quickly went to the 8.5R. It felt just a little bit too long - I guess that's what 1/4 sizing is for - but I went with it anyway. When I laced up for the first time, I saw something I'd never seen before: two parallel rows of eyelets looking back up at me. I then realised that my feet didn't hurt, and I began to leap around the store like some deranged modern dance troupe of one.

That eurphoria lasted about ten minutes. Time was up: my feet started to hurt in all the old places, and I looked down to find the tongue of the skate bulging up, and the eyelets distending. I nearly hacked my leg off with an errant pair of t'blades in sheer frustration. The G9s were still the best skate I've ever tried on, but they simply weren't deep enough.

So now I'm down to 8090s and Bauer Classic Golds. I've yet to find either to try on, but they are my last hopes to avoid the custom skates which I can ill afford, and of course, Bauer won't make them for anyone. I'm guessing I'll be an 8D in either, with the possibility of squeezing into a 7.5D.

[srv2miker 0]

Have you tried the Graf 727s? They're probably too hard to find...

[cbart 1]

Law Goalie...My 2 cents...

My G70's finally arrived at my LHS last week. Guy working there took pity on me and gave me a deal on them I couldn't pass up. I found them to be slightly deeper than the Flexlite 12's that I just got for a steal on Ebay. The 70's seem to be much stiffer than the Flexlites, with a thicker tongue that may lessen the minor lacebite I was feeling with the Flexlites. The 70's have been baked twice now and will, I believe take the length of time to break in that a "normal" skate would. The Flexlites were ready to go after about 20 minutes on the ice. I did the pencil test with the 70's and I would say that I barely pass. Flexlites got a so-so grade (C-) on the same test. To hear you say the G9's are deeper peaks my curiousity but from what I hear, they are pretty heavy. I'm going to wait on giving final judgement on the 70's and the depth until I have at least 3-4 more skates on them to give them a little more break in time. These 2 skates are the last straw...Next stop custom-ville!

[sogaduch 0]

the G7 or 707 boot just so you know Law has varying depth meaning it has different boot depth because the eyelots are not attached to the boot where the top 3 eyelots sit, now the 709 does fit deeper then the G70 because even though the G70 is built similar to the 709 it is made abig shallower to fit more feet same as the G7 being abit narrower in the heel to fit more people.

Now if you did order custom it is possible to order the skates with extra depth meaning have the boot come up abit more so it fits right on your fit

[Law Goalie 147]

srv2miker - I have tried the 727s (as the rare 07-50 goalie skate that GoalieMonkey cobbled together), and found the boot way too shot and way too soft. I have a really unpleasant ankle problem, and my physiotherapist demanded that I get a high, stiff, almost cast-like boot, or I'd basically tear my own foot off at the joint.

Thanks for confirming that, sog. By any chance, do you know offhand what Graf up-charges for custom sizing? My LHS told me it was a flat fee, but it seemed unbelievably high. I'd probably be looking at a size or two increase in depth and 1/4 sizing. I don't care if they make them out of pink synthetics as long as they fit...

cbart -

Glad to hear you found your skates! There's hope for me yet, I guess.

The G9s were absolutely deeper than the G70s, but as you guessed, far heavier too. I'm used to goalie skates, so anything feels light to me, but there was a definite difference between the G and the Ultra G in weight. I can only imagine how heavy the 709s are...

Here's my question for you (and everyone else), and it's a crucial one:

Could the volume of the skate be increased during the baking process, under certain conditions?

The guy at my LHS suggested that, in addition to forming around the heel and spreading out in the forefoot, a skate could actually deepen a small but appreciable amount after a good hard bake or three. Does this make sense? If you feel that the G70s are deepening after your subsequent bakes, please do let me know.

Just to confirm, cbart, did you ever get to try the 8090s?

And as a last-but-not-least question, what other Bauer skates beside the 8090 and the Classic Gold (and the crapper Classic Silver) had that super-deep "Classic" fit? I don't care about weight, materials, or anything - just fit.

[tbintexas 0]

And as a last-but-not-least question, what other Bauer skates beside the 8090 and the Classic Gold (and the crapper Classic Silver) had that super-deep "Classic" fit? I don't care about weight, materials, or anything - just fit.

LG - I've recently discovered that that Bauer 5090 8EE's fit my foot almost perfectly, and through reading came to the conclusion that the 5090's, 8090's and new Supreme 70's are/were made from the same boot 'last'. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong...

[Law Goalie 147]

Thanks for reminding me of the 5090s. I'd prefer to end up in the 8090s, since they're a higher-end skate, but I'd try the 5090s if I found them.

The Supreme 70s are indeed made from the same last, but are, I believe, not as deep or wide as the 8090s (since the 8090s in retail D are actually EE-width). Same basic foot shape on the bottom, different depth above it.

I should say as well, I was able to try on a pair of 7.5D Supreme 70s, and they were definitely to shallow. I forgot to mention that.

[number21 3]

After all this, you'll be an encyclopedia of skate fit Law!

I know the up-charge and probably wait for customs is substantial, but after all this time and effort, it seems like your best solution. (not that i really know anything about this)

Good luck, hope you find your skate soon!

[Law Goalie 147]

There's a form of encyclopedic satire usually referred to as Varronian - I feel like I'm in one about hockey. :)

Agree with you, too, on the custom front.

Thing is, I have student debt up around my ears, and I'm trying to support my wife while she finishes her undergrad. A few hundred I could squeeze - a grand (which is what custom Grafs are looking like) is just too much. Even then, they'll still be a ton of work to get what I want out of them.

[number21 3]

ah yes debt. So easy to not think about when you are talking about other people's money.

well, i wish you more luck on finding an affordable solution!

[Law Goalie 147]

Heh, that's exactly how I think about my income these days - it's other people's money until proven mine. :(

Cheers.

[sogaduch 0]

law- the upcharge just for sizing is 150 on any 700 series or Ultra series graf skate and the sizing also includes width and toe cap and tongue and liner so a 709 can be custom ordered with the Ultra series liner and such

[cbart 1]

srv2miker - I have tried the 727s (as the rare 07-50 goalie skate that GoalieMonkey cobbled together), and found the boot way too shot and way too soft. I have a really unpleasant ankle problem, and my physiotherapist demanded that I get a high, stiff, almost cast-like boot, or I'd basically tear my own foot off at the joint.

Thanks for confirming that, sog. By any chance, do you know offhand what Graf up-charges for custom sizing? My LHS told me it was a flat fee, but it seemed unbelievably high. I'd probably be looking at a size or two increase in depth and 1/4 sizing. I don't care if they make them out of pink synthetics as long as they fit...

cbart -

Glad to hear you found your skates! There's hope for me yet, I guess.

The G9s were absolutely deeper than the G70s, but as you guessed, far heavier too. I'm used to goalie skates, so anything feels light to me, but there was a definite difference between the G and the Ultra G in weight. I can only imagine how heavy the 709s are...

Here's my question for you (and everyone else), and it's a crucial one:

Could the volume of the skate be increased during the baking process, under certain conditions?

The guy at my LHS suggested that, in addition to forming around the heel and spreading out in the forefoot, a skate could actually deepen a small but appreciable amount after a good hard bake or three. Does this make sense? If you feel that the G70s are deepening after your subsequent bakes, please do let me know.

Just to confirm, cbart, did you ever get to try the 8090s?

And as a last-but-not-least question, what other Bauer skates beside the 8090 and the Classic Gold (and the crapper Classic Silver) had that super-deep "Classic" fit? I don't care about weight, materials, or anything - just fit.

LG,

Here I sit, one foot in my Flexlites, the other in th 70's...Pondering again which one to stick with! Glancing down, it seems (and I think my pencil agrees)that the 70' are just a HAIR deeper than the Flexlites. My pocketbook is too afraid to put a pair of G9's on...so these are gonna have to do. I do like your baking theory, and may have to try that again after a few weeks. On a side note...this tongue on the 70's is huge...I may hit up East West hockey for a replacement. They have the bauer supreme 3000 tongue in stock. I ordered a pair of the Supreme One90 from them last year for my Easton's. Anyone have any input on the 3000 tongue? From the pics, it looks promising, not to bulky like the Graf Ultra tongue.

Never did find a pair of 8090's to try on...Pretty rare in these parts

[Keith 0]

You are going to have to just save up your cash and get a custom order. Otherwise you are going to blow a lot of cash on a skate that will be like a stopgap because they still don't really fit you right.

[Law Goalie 147]

Keith, that's exactly what my wife said, bless her Steinway-loving heart. :D

cbart, definitely let me know whether you feel the G70s deepening over subsequent bakes & break-in. Replacing the thick tongue is a good idea, too, but it will of course only work to a point: if your foot pushes the tongue above the eyelets, you're hosed. I'd also *highly* suggest trying Cyclist's Lacing (aka Bushwalk), which evens out pressure across the eyelets and over the tongue. It's made my Daousts temporarily playable, though still tremendously painful by the end of a game.

The only question is whether I'll be able to get any more midfoot depth out of the G9s through repeated baking. The LHS says yes, but I can't find any information on MSH, except that it works on the rather unconventional Kors - but only to a point.

If anyone knows whether baking can increase depth *slightly* (we're talking a few mm here) I'd love to know.

edit: Thanks to sog for quoting me that charge. My LHS quoted me something... much higher.

[cbart 1]

Keith, that's exactly what my wife said, bless her Steinway-loving heart. :D

cbart, definitely let me know whether you feel the G70s deepening over subsequent bakes & break-in. Replacing the thick tongue is a good idea, too, but it will of course only work to a point: if your foot pushes the tongue above the eyelets, you're hosed. I'd also *highly* suggest trying Cyclist's Lacing (aka Bushwalk), which evens out pressure across the eyelets and over the tongue. It's made my Daousts temporarily playable, though still tremendously painful by the end of a game.

The only question is whether I'll be able to get any more midfoot depth out of the G9s through repeated baking. The LHS says yes, but I can't find any information on MSH, except that it works on the rather unconventional Kors - but only to a point.

If anyone knows whether baking can increase depth *slightly* (we're talking a few mm here) I'd love to know.

edit: Thanks to sog for quoting me that charge. My LHS quoted me something... much higher.

LG,

Just found a website showing this Cyclist lacing...LOVE IT!!

Thanks!