His Graf Materials

[Law Goalie 147]

I've done a fair bit of digging on this, but I can't find anyone anywhere who has definitely put together the pro's and con's of the materials used in constructing the various Graf skates.

What I'm looking for are first-hand opinions and accounts of these materials in action, and any additional insight into what they actually are and how they behave. I don't give a rat's ass how they look -- I know all about White Lightning, Retro Brown, Black Widow, the Green Lantern and all that garbage. I'm only concerned with durability and performance.

Here's what I've gathered so far, broken down by Graf series:

700-series

- CP93 ribbed material is tough and durable, but heavy, prone to waterlogging, and goes soft over time

- TX-3 leather also used to varying degrees (more on 707, less on 709, etc.)

- basic synthetic leather liner (tan)

- TPU outsole and insole

- good old felt tongues

- Cobra 3000 holder extremely stiff, tough (solid!), but absorbs water and goes soft over time

- steel relatively poor (pitting, soft); bolts notoriously annoying

G-series

- Teclite (aka Texalite, aka Techlite) outer/upper much lighter and stiffer than CP93, and less prone to waterlog, but *some* report series durability problems (ie. skates falling apart)

- don't know if above reports are 'early run' only, or a consistent problem in the material

- KX Microfibre liner (grey) which was generally not well received (water retention)

- good old felt tongues

- composite insole and outsole: MAJOR problems reported, some early, some not so early (chipping, delamination, splitting...)

- unclear whether 'Carboframe' integration of insole (carbon), heel-counter (Aramid) and outsole (carbon) is responsible, or a great idea

- same 3000 holder/steel (some steel perforated)

Ultra G-series

- XP3 upper material significantly lighter, better with water than any previous

- no reports good or bad on XP3 long-term durability, but many report material cuts and frays easily

- AirNet liner very light/good with water, but hated by some (slipping) and apparently sometimes rips out along seams (!!)

- new foam-based tongues again hated by many, generally cited for early breakdown, esp. in Ultra G7 and G70 models

- NEW composite insole and outsole *appear* to solve previous problems

- V2 Carboframe "integrating a carbon fiber core laminated with a Polyethylene insole" (whatever that means)

- heel-counter integration implied but unknown

- Cobra 5000 holder now waterproof polyamid, but some say it is now hollow rather than solid plastic

- new titanium bolts (instead of steel) lighter and rust-proof, but MAJOR problems with stripping reported

- same old crappy Graf steel

Now, it's been my observation that *most* of the pro-returns I've seen are either pure 700-series boots, or 700-series with the following G-series features: Teclite instead of CP93 on the upper, TPU outsole/composite insole, and sometimes a grey clarino liner. I would like to think that's the best combination, but it may also be the least durable one, given the needs and wants of pros.

I'd also like to know whether the "Integra" material is anything other than flashy.

Anyone with Graf-knowledge, I'd love to hear from you. If you want to start a flame war about Graf's customer service or how much better Nike is, go away. I know the risks and rewards of custom Grafs, and I've decided to go with them: I just want to know my material options.

[Keith 0]

I have to say that the blade mounts on the ultras I have seen have been terribly sloppy with the holders looking really forced on and nowhere near flush to the outsole.

[Law Goalie 147]

I've heard that's mainly a problem with the composite outsole, but it may also have to do with the composite insole. It's apparently quite tricky to drill and mount the RMS nuts correctly. Apart from that, I would guess that any deformation in the outsole as the material is curing would be basically impossible to correct, and much harder to guard against than when dealing with a reasonably malleable substance like TPU.

I guess that's why most pros (or I should say, most trainers) like the TPU outsole/composite insole combination. Stiff, light, responsive, but not quite as annoying to work with.

[top_shelf_24 0]

Is it possible to order just boots, then mount your holder of choice to avoid the whole crappy cobra deal?

[Pats 0]

Yes, I have done it before. In fact you can request to have the holes drilled to your holder preference at least for Lightspeeds anyway.

[Law Goalie 147]

What ticks me off is that I love the Cobra holders (in my limited experience) but the steel is horrible. I'm planning to get Step steel put on them, no matter what happens.

[Reaper 0]

http://www.stepskates.com/stepskates.html

These guys used to make SLM steel, I think. They make replacement steel for a few different holders but GRAF is one they make steel to fit into. Apparently, it's really good steel and much better than stock Cobra offerings.

Edit: Apparently you edited right after I started my post but before it was actually posted.

[Law Goalie 147]

I love my old SLM cowlings - best I'd ever used, right up until I got my RBKs.

[Keith 0]

I am not talking about the outsole, I am talking about the actual cobras being so forced on the mounting plates are in soft "u" shapes with only the very outer edge touching the outsole. And this was on the newer ultra offerings so I doubt they have nipped this in the bud yet. If you are dead set on graf, I'd get an ultra boot but without that horrible tongue and get the liner changed to the classic one if you can and just waterproof it with the spray they tell you to use on the originals.

[Law Goalie 147]

Ah, gotcha - I misunderstood. I thought you meant that the Cobras were being twisted to fit misaligned or just plain malformed outsoles. Do you think that a TPU outsole would address the problem you're seeing with the Cobras?

I am definitely getting a felt tongue, unless someone can convince me otherwise.

I think I remember this now - the G-series had a 'Cambrelle' liner that's often found in boots, and the waterproofing spray is the same stuff you can find at REI/MEC.

I'm tempted to go with the Ultra boot, even with a different liner, tongue and outsole I'm just not convinced about the long-term durability of the Ultra materials.

[Keith 0]

I'd go for the ultras, personally. I actually find them really impressive aside from some quality control issues which you need to be on top of. Just order them and go over those things meticulously when they arrive before you hand your cash over.

[hunterphfr 12]

I am not talking about the outsole, I am talking about the actual cobras being so forced on the mounting plates are in soft "u" shapes with only the very outer edge touching the outsole. ANd this was on the newer ultra offerings so I doubt they have nipped this in the bud yet. If you are dead set on graf, I'd get an ultra boot but without that horrible tongue and get the liner chnged to the classic one if you can and just waterproof it with the spray they tell you to use on the originals.

One of my G9's has this problem. Looking at the front of the holder from the side, basically the front and rear screw are to close together and force the holder plastic down in the middle creating a gap.

I'm transitioning from 110 XPs to the G9s and can't believe the difference in steel, night and day. When I get some issues with the G9s straightened out next purchase is a pair of pitch 3s.

[tsanga 0]

LG,

Just want to add that the new Ultra G covering material (the black external stuff) cuts very easily. Not sure how this compares with other brands - I'm coming from old leather/ballistic nylon boot coverings that seemed pretty indestructible.

[krwwc6 0]

how much does it cost to get the stepsteel? I can't stand the fact that steel for cobra holders is the most expensive yet its the worst steel. I hate it. I just hate it.

edit: didn't mean to change the subject and hi-jack a thread.

[MLSman 22]

What about the 700 series with Teclite? I asked some questions about it in a different thread for a friend, but have not received any solid answers...specifically about the 735s. Has anyone use/used them, and impressions on stiffness and durability.

[Law Goalie 147]

Alright, based on this thread I am going with a pure 700-series in/outsole. No carbon/fake carbon whatsoever - TPU only.

MLS, Ithe 700+Teclite combination has been on the majority of pro-returns I've seen. That could be a very good thing (some clever trainers figuring out the best possible skate) or very, very bad (it's a maximum performance, minimum durability setup). My initial impression was that Teclite was significantly stiffer and lighter than CP93 in the upper.

tsanga, thanks for the heads-up on the Ultra-G's XP3 uppers. Cut resistance is one of my major concerns for long-term durability.

krww, Step blades are (AFAIK) priced more or less on par with OEM steel. That is, you'll pay for Step what you paid for Bauer/Graf/whatever. Of course, you have to find a dealer, first...

[MLSman 22]

the 700+Teclite combination has been on the majority of pro-returns I've seen. That could be a very good thing (some clever trainers figuring out the best possible skate) or very, very bad (it's a maximum performance, minimum durability setup). My initial impression was that Teclite was significantly stiffer and lighter than CP93 in the upper.

Thanks for the feedback. Since you were looking into the Teclite for your setup as well, did you happen to inquire or know about the stiffness levels...as in retail stiffness versus customs with higher stiffness?

[Law Goalie 147]

Not really, no -- all I know is that of the two pro-returns I saw (one with CP-93, one with Teclite) that were both labelled "stiff", both were much stiffer than the retail 709, but the Teclite pair was substantially lighter and stiffer. Combined with the comments about the G9 as compared with the 709, I think it's a fair assessment of the materials.

[MLSman 22]

Not really, no -- all I know is that of the two pro-returns I saw (one with CP-93, one with Teclite) that were both labelled "stiff", both were much stiffer than the retail 709, but the Teclite pair was substantially lighter and stiffer. Combined with the comments about the G9 as compared with the 709, I think it's a fair assessment of the materials.

I really appreciate the info. So from the pro stock teclite you have seen, have you felt a pair as stiff as the Vapor XXXXs...of course assuming you might have been able to feel the stiffness at the quarters?

[Law Goalie 147]

I can't fit into XXXX's at all - sorry. :(

[MLSman 22]

I can't fit into XXXX's at all - sorry. :(

I hear ya...just wondering if you used your hand to press the corners of the quarter panel together to gauge the stiffness.

[Law Goalie 147]

I will the next time I'm at the shop. I'll be bringing in a pair of Flexlites for a side-by-side, too, before I rape them with every tool in the shop.

[MLSman 22]

I will the next time I'm at the shop. I'll be bringing in a pair of Flexlites for a side-by-side, too, before I rape them with every tool in the shop.

NICE!

Really appreciate the info...I look forward to your impressions on stiffness.

Final question...holder size on Grafs. Buddy wears a 9.5 and wants to go LS2 holder. What size should he ask for?

[hunterphfr 12]

Law Goalie a few observations I have, though they may be a little pre-mature. I like you have f-ed up feet. I have not had a pair of skates that did not hurt my feet since my early teens. In the military I wore my jungle and desert boots without insoles to increase their depth. I do the same today in the fire service with both my bunker and station duty boots. I have very short, very wide and "deep" feet. I buy my street shoes and Tevas a size, size and a half too big just to achieve some level of comfort/fit.

I am currently skating in a pair of Mission 110 EE XPs that are a 1/2 size too big. Baked them a couple times and have to wear them barefoot. By the end of the first period the pain begins to fade these days. For the first 5 months or so after I took them off I could barely walk to the shower due to the pain from sensation and blood returning to my feet.

I have been in Bauer, CCM Tacks and even bought a cheap pair of used Graf 705s off Ebay just to get a feel for the length and width. Living in Florida the LHSs leave more than a little to be desired. It's not their fault, they just deal in a very small market and can't stock skates to fit people with circus feet.

Just purchased of a pair of G9s in a W width. Had pain at the top of the foot where the toungue meets the toe cap. Baked them they seemed to fit OK and wore them to pickup. Within 10 minutes the pain was so bad I had to keave the ice and change to my Missions. Have baked them a second time and worn them while watching TV and am up to 1 1/2 hours now on the sofa and am about to try them on the ice again. Problem is while the 9 series is for deep feet they use the same toe cap as other Grafs. This with the thick felt toungue drove it right into the top of my big feet causing excrutiating pain identical to that I felt in the 705s. If they have a larger toe cap option I would recommend that.

I couldn't even begin to describe the difference in the quality of steel between the Pitch 3s and the Cobras. If you can, get the Grafs without blades and put whatever you prefer on them you will be much happier.

Hopefully with some work and time my G9s will be pain free and I can get some pitch 3s on them, god I hope so 25 years is too long to wait to be happy with your skates.

[Law Goalie 147]

Goddamn, hunter - that's awful.

I am indeed getting oversized toecaps, which will probably still need to be stretched medially at the big toe. I'm hoping that will still allow my to have the toe-box lined, but I'm unsure at this point. We'll see...

The one thing I can tell you absolutely is that Graf toe-caps can be easily heated and stretched. Both they and the Missions are designed specifically for that purpose. If your LHS won't do it (or you don't trust them) mail the G9's to Jimmy or JR or someone else who can do it. It will be worth it.