Skate Advice - Vapor vs KOR

[goodguy 7]

Ok, I have read that SUPER long post about KOR skates - holy cow guys - have never seen so much discussion on a pair of skates before!

JR. I remember seeing the KOR's at Hockey Deals in Novi again and again - I may have even handled them at some point but I remember overlooking them (and the Torspo's) as a bit "funky" and really didn't give them consideration when I was looking for new skates for my kid.

So, fast forward a year or so and add an economy that is in the tank and a wife that says - "you better not be buying $400 skates for the kids this year" - and you have a Hockey Dad who has some serious questions about what skates will work.

My son is 10 years old and quite big so last season, I decided to get the Vapor XXXX's to get the ankle support I thought he needed (pronator). They were 5.5, the largest junior size, so the price was not too bad. Well, he grew and now we are looking at Senior models so - in my mind - the Vapor XXV was the logical choice. He really seemed to do well with the Vapor XXXX's and we never had to worry about the skates all season (pretty bulletproof). BTW - his nike shoe size is now a 9 (little animal keeps growing like crazy). I am guessing he is a KOR 8 (or 7.5).

SO - in looking on MSH , I see the thread about KOR's and start reading some decent reviews about the skate. Add to that the low price (I found a source for about $100 for Shift 2's).

My intention was to step down from the XXXX's to the X:40 (which I hear is equiv. to the XXV) or even look at maybe picking up some U+ skates on the cheap (but I think the CCM fit will be an issue as he has a high instep). Is the new Vapor line that good or are they very similar to the previous ones.

So i have a few questions for anyone who can help -

1) What is the size gauge going from Vapor XXXX's to KOR's - from earlier posts it seems people are saying 1/2 size up for the KOR's (i.e. Vapor XXXX's size 8 would be a KOR 8.5) Is this right?

2) How do the skates compare - would you recommend the KOR's (from what I recall the KOR's seemed a bit klunky sizewize when looking at them on the wall compared to the more shapely Vapors. Is this true - I am more concerned with performance than looks anyway.

3) After reading the threads, I think the Shift 2 is the way to go. It has been a while since KOR was in focus so I wonder if they are still viable skates considering Bauer has upgraded their line, etc.

4) Any things I should be looking for when sizing them up - right now, I am going on 1 size lower than his casual shoe and 1/2 size up from a Vapor fit. Since no stores have these to try on, I was thinking of getting his correct fit in a Vapor and ordering the KOR online 1/2 size larger - do you think this is a good strategy.

I guess my biggest fear is messing with success as far as skates go - the Vapors have worked well - but the price and reviews of the KOR make it sound like it is an affordable One95.

Any thoughts. Thanks.

[fatwabbit 93]

It depends on which model Kor as well, whether you are goign with the Shift 1 or shift 2

Here's a reference to the skates that I've got, or what I should have gotten to get the same size/fit

Bauer XXXX Size 8D

Kor Shift 1 Size 9D

Kor Shift 2 size 9.5D - thick neoprene sock at the front, takes up 1/8" of the toe cap?

Torspo Surge 221 size 9D - fit is perfect, toes barely feathering the toe cap.

The Kor Shift 2 is supposed to also fit slightly deeper.... I've done a quick comparison with both skates last week, and my foot has about 1/8" more volume in the shift 2 when I did the pencil test.

[legiahockey 3]

i would honestly get the kid vapors. ive been in almost evry type of skate on the market and the kors felt the worst. they just felt dead and like my feet were tied to bricks. the xxv's and x'40's both felt very nice to me in the store im sure hed like them.

[goodguy 7]

It depends on which model Kor as well, whether you are goign with the Shift 1 or shift 2

Here's a reference to the skates that I've got, or what I should have gotten to get the same size/fit

Bauer XXXX Size 8D

Kor Shift 1 Size 9D

Kor Shift 2 size 9.5D - thick neoprene sock at the front, takes up 1/8" of the toe cap?

Torspo Surge 221 size 9D - fit is perfect, toes barely feathering the toe cap.

The Kor Shift 2 is supposed to also fit slightly deeper.... I've done a quick comparison with both skates last week, and my foot has about 1/8" more volume in the shift 2 when I did the pencil test.

I would be getting the Shift 2's.

When you say volume and pencil test - do you mean you put the pencil behind the heel - and then compared the remaining volume (forefoot, instep, etc). and the KOR had more?

Thanks for the info.

i would honestly get the kid vapors. ive been in almost evry type of skate on the market and the kors felt the worst. they just felt dead and like my feet were tied to bricks. the xxv's and x'40's both felt very nice to me in the store im sure hed like them.

I hear you - there is a reason the Vapors are so popular in all levels of the game. We were truly happy with the XXXX's.

That being said - I guess the question is: Is it worth the extra $225 to go to the Vapor XXXX's again, X:40's or even the CCM U+ (seniors)? (assuming I get the Shift 2's for $120 or so).

AND - between the XXXX and the X:40's - which would you choose?

[fatwabbit 93]

The pencil test, essentially unlacing your skates down about 4-5 eyelets, then pulling the tongue back... best described in this thread. It will give you a ROUGH idea of whether the skates have enough volume to prevent things like lacebite.

http://www.modsquadhockey.com/forums/index...5&hl=pencil

[althoma1 575]

fatwabbit Posted Today, 08:56 PM

It depends on which model Kor as well, whether you are goign with the Shift 1 or shift 2

Here's a reference to the skates that I've got, or what I should have gotten to get the same size/fit

Bauer XXXX Size 8D

Kor Shift 1 Size 9D

Kor Shift 2 size 9.5D - thick neoprene sock at the front, takes up 1/8" of the toe cap?

Torspo Surge 221 size 9D - fit is perfect, toes barely feathering the toe cap.

The Kor Shift 2 is supposed to also fit slightly deeper.... I've done a quick comparison with both skates last week, and my foot has about 1/8" more volume in the shift 2 when I did the pencil test.

I have KOR Shift 1's, 2's and Torspo 221's all in size 8.5D. The Shift 1's and Torspos feel perfect. The Shift 2's fit well, but my right toe is pressed right against the end...it's not bent, but there's no room at all. My right foot is slightly longer than my left. The toe doesn't bother me when I skate though and I'd rather have my one toe a litte pressend than slop myself.

When I tried on my teammates 7.5D One90s they felt like the right length, but weren't quite wide enough for me (I believe I'd need a EE in that skate). I believe the XXXX skates are around the same lengthwise as the One90s. Therefore I'd say you'd need to go up one size from the correct size of XXXX skate in the KOR Shift 2's...maybe 1.5 sizes if you want a little extra room (if your son is still growing then 1.5 sizes up from a perfect fitting XXXX skate might not be a bad idea).

I've never used XXXX skates so I can't compare them to KORs performance wise, but I've been happy with my KORs. I find them both comfortable and responsive.

[legiahockey 3]

to decide between any vapors ask yourself a few q's. is his foot still growing and how fast? and if he grows fast resale of vapors will be better than kors. how heavy is he? might not need the stiffness of xxxx's. remember jr sizes dont have sr stiffness. and what level is he playing? another does my kid need top of the line skates. and have him ask around the rink. ive seen lots of "used once" skates for sale super cheap from buddies that bought the wrong size or fit. recently brand new one75's for 120 bucks...so you could try that to. whatever you choose goodluck to your kid and good luck to your wallet to lol :)

edit- about the u's. performance wise best skate i ever used....only had them for a month though. extremely responsive. you can get alot of good deals on them and i believe he'll out grow them before durability becomes an issue anyway. but this skate is very hit or miss on heel width.it never hurts to try them on though. and your question on is any skate worth an extra 225.....thats something i cant answer for you as im 19 and am lucky to not have to worry to much about what i spend now. you know your spending limits better than me......sorry it was such a long post

[goodguy 7]

fatwabbit Posted Today, 08:56 PM

It depends on which model Kor as well, whether you are goign with the Shift 1 or shift 2

Here's a reference to the skates that I've got, or what I should have gotten to get the same size/fit

Bauer XXXX Size 8D

Kor Shift 1 Size 9D

Kor Shift 2 size 9.5D - thick neoprene sock at the front, takes up 1/8" of the toe cap?

Torspo Surge 221 size 9D - fit is perfect, toes barely feathering the toe cap.

The Kor Shift 2 is supposed to also fit slightly deeper.... I've done a quick comparison with both skates last week, and my foot has about 1/8" more volume in the shift 2 when I did the pencil test.

I have KOR Shift 1's, 2's and Torspo 221's all in size 8.5D. The Shift 1's and Torspos feel perfect. The Shift 2's fit well, but my right toe is pressed right against the end...it's not bent, but there's no room at all. My right foot is slightly longer than my left. The toe doesn't bother me when I skate though and I'd rather have my one toe a litte pressend than slop myself.

When I tried on my teammates 7.5D One90s they felt like the right length, but weren't quite wide enough for me (I believe I'd need a EE in that skate). I believe the XXXX skates are around the same lengthwise as the One90s. Therefore I'd say you'd need to go up one size from the correct size of XXXX skate in the KOR Shift 2's...maybe 1.5 sizes if you want a little extra room (if your son is still growing then 1.5 sizes up from a perfect fitting XXXX skate might not be a bad idea).

I've never used XXXX skates so I can't compare them to KORs performance wise, but I've been happy with my KORs. I find them both comfortable and responsive.

How would you compare your Torspos to your KOR's - which is better?

Also, tell me your thoughts re the Shift 1 vs SHift 2's - thanks for your help.

to decide between any vapors ask yourself a few q's. is his foot still growing and how fast? and if he grows fast resale of vapors will be better than kors. how heavy is he? might not need the stiffness of xxxx's. remember jr sizes dont have sr stiffness. and what level is he playing? another does my kid need top of the line skates. and have him ask around the rink. ive seen lots of "used once" skates for sale super cheap from buddies that bought the wrong size or fit. recently brand new one75's for 120 bucks...so you could try that to. whatever you choose goodluck to your kid and good luck to your wallet to lol :)

He plays AAA level and the reason I got the XXXX's was 1) I got them for cheap brand new (at the time) and they were Junior price and 2) I wanted to eliminate the skates as "good or bad" and forget blaming the skates for his performance. Knowing the Vapor XXXX's fit him well and were top skates, I could stop wondering whetehr the skate was "good" or not.

With three boys playing hockey, I have got to start looking at cutting costs somehow as they all seem to need some new equipment every season.

I guess I could go with the Senior Vapor XXV's from HG at like $169 or so and I would be relatively certian they would perform near the XXXX's as most people say there are very minor differences.

I was just thinking the KORs may be a great find if they truly perform as some have claimed (i.e. They form to the foot ala One95, etc).

I was under the impression the Juniors were the same construction of the Seniors relative to their size. So the stiffness would be relatively similar regardless of size. Is that not true? Are you saying that a 5.5 junior XXXX is not as stiff as a size 6 senior XXXX (the next size up) due to the skate being constructed as a "senior" skate?

[legiahockey 3]

from what i hear jr's are much softer. but from a 5.5 to 6 im not sure. theres already a huge price jump so id guess ya. but maybe someone else can chime in if im wrong. and i think the xxv's at that price are great. people were very happy with them at 269-299. and like you already said. look at how many vapors you see in every league everywere you go. there doing something right. ive seen one pair of kors on an i-leaguer is all. if you cant try on the kors ahead of time id skip out on them for sure. i think your kid will be alot happier

[althoma1 575]

goodguy Posted Today, 12:08 AM

How would you compare your Torspos to your KOR's - which is better?

Also, tell me your thoughts re the Shift 1 vs SHift 2's - thanks for your help.

Torspo allegedly bought the KOR Shift 1 mold off their original Chinese factory. That would make sense as the fit and sizing of the Torspos is the same with the key differences being a slightly thinner tongue, a longer and stiffer tendon guard, there's no toe sock, the holders are riveted on and aren't Pitch 3's, and there are removable insoles. They're similar skates - I don't have the Torspo holders as I use the Torspo boots with Sprung holders for roller. I like the built in moldable footbed in the KORs and the toe sock, but I like the longer stiffer tendon guard on the Torspos. If I had to choose between the two for ice skates I'd pick the KORs due to the fully moldable built in footbed and the fact that they come with the Pitch 3 holders (some of the best steel out there and the ability to try out different pitches is a great bonus).

As far as the Shift 1 vs the Shift 2 goes the Shift 2's are lighter, they have the holders riveted on and use superfeet, are slightly deeper and higher cut with higher tendon guards. I find my Shift 1's a little more comfortable (perhaps because I've used them more and they have the fully moldable foot bed). I do notice the Shift 2's feel a little lighter when I'm on the ice so it feels like my feet are a bit quicker, but I wouldn't say they're miles ahead from a performance perspective.

I think a great Frankenskate would be the Shift 1 with its lower cut, toe glove and moldable footbeds, either the Torspo 221 or Shift 2 tendon guards and the weight of the Shift 2s. They're all good skates, but I'd go for either of the KORs over the Torspos. If you can't find the KORs in your size then the Torspos are a decent potential third option.

[fatwabbit 93]

How would you compare your Torspos to your KOR's - which is better?

Also, tell me your thoughts re the Shift 1 vs SHift 2's - thanks for your help.

I didnt have the Kors long enough, maybe a few skates in each. Each of the skates were converted to inline with a sprung chassis

Kor Shift 1 - felt good, even better after baking. I did feel more flex in the skates than the Torspos, maybe resulting in the best game I've had all season. Non-removable insole, and converting these were done at the LHS. Had relatively average volume for my feet, just barely passing the pencil test

Kor Shift 2 - got a size 9D, which was half size too small. I didnt stay on these very long due to the size issue, but nonetheless more volume in the foot area than the shift 1.

Torpos - stiff as hell, but not as stiff as retail XXXX. Initial opinion was that it was too small, but after baking my foot sat into the heel pocket well. Its difficult to explain, but the boot feels very thin, and lacing up the eyelets creak but remains solid. I had quite a number of issues with blisters on the inside of my feet the first few skates, but I patched up my feet in the affected areas with some medical tape and after a few skates there was no more blistering. Ankle support is good, sucks my foot into the ankle lock well... no slop while skating. Only thing you need to worry about it to ensure that you dont crank up and lace them up really tight.

As you can tell I cant give you a direct comparison because none of the skates were fitted at a LHS... I lucked out with the Torspos, getting the right size and width.

[Chadd 916]

i would honestly get the kid vapors. ive been in almost evry type of skate on the market and the kors felt the worst. they just felt dead and like my feet were tied to bricks. the xxv's and x'40's both felt very nice to me in the store im sure hed like them.

Outside of my custom S500s, the Kor was my favorite. I had better feel of the ice with them than anything from Bauer or CCM.

goodguy Posted Today, 12:08 AM

How would you compare your Torspos to your KOR's - which is better?

Also, tell me your thoughts re the Shift 1 vs SHift 2's - thanks for your help.

Torspo allegedly bought the KOR Shift 1 mold off their original Chinese factory. That would make sense as the fit and sizing of the Torspos is the same with the key differences being a slightly thinner tongue, a longer and stiffer tendon guard, there's no toe sock, the holders are riveted on and aren't Pitch 3's, and there are removable insoles. They're similar skates - I don't have the Torspo holders as I use the Torspo boots with Sprung holders for roller. I like the built in moldable footbed in the KORs and the toe sock, but I like the longer stiffer tendon guard on the Torspos. If I had to choose between the two for ice skates I'd pick the KORs due to the fully moldable built in footbed and the fact that they come with the Pitch 3 holders (some of the best steel out there and the ability to try out different pitches is a great bonus).

As far as the Shift 1 vs the Shift 2 goes the Shift 2's are lighter, they have the holders riveted on and use superfeet, are slightly deeper and higher cut with higher tendon guards. I find my Shift 1's a little more comfortable (perhaps because I've used them more and they have the fully moldable foot bed). I do notice the Shift 2's feel a little lighter when I'm on the ice so it feels like my feet are a bit quicker, but I wouldn't say they're miles ahead from a performance perspective.

I think a great Frankenskate would be the Shift 1 with its lower cut, toe glove and moldable footbeds, either the Torspo 221 or Shift 2 tendon guards and the weight of the Shift 2s. They're all good skates, but I'd go for either of the KORs over the Torspos. If you can't find the KORs in your size then the Torspos are a decent potential third option.

Kor was rejecting a very large portion of the production from the Chinese factory, Torspo does not to the best of my knowledge. The factory uses manual methods of applying the fiber and resin and the skates can be very different from one skate to the next.

[TomMc#4 0]

if you look on ebay you can pick up xxxx's for $200-300, cheaper if they are used once etc

[snobrder_ad 0]

goodguy Posted Today, 12:08 AM

How would you compare your Torspos to your KOR's - which is better?

Also, tell me your thoughts re the Shift 1 vs SHift 2's - thanks for your help.

Torspo allegedly bought the KOR Shift 1 mold off their original Chinese factory. That would make sense as the fit and sizing of the Torspos is the same with the key differences being a slightly thinner tongue, a longer and stiffer tendon guard, there's no toe sock, the holders are riveted on and aren't Pitch 3's, and there are removable insoles. They're similar skates - I don't have the Torspo holders as I use the Torspo boots with Sprung holders for roller. I like the built in moldable footbed in the KORs and the toe sock, but I like the longer stiffer tendon guard on the Torspos. If I had to choose between the two for ice skates I'd pick the KORs due to the fully moldable built in footbed and the fact that they come with the Pitch 3 holders (some of the best steel out there and the ability to try out different pitches is a great bonus).

As far as the Shift 1 vs the Shift 2 goes the Shift 2's are lighter, they have the holders riveted on and use superfeet, are slightly deeper and higher cut with higher tendon guards. I find my Shift 1's a little more comfortable (perhaps because I've used them more and they have the fully moldable foot bed). I do notice the Shift 2's feel a little lighter when I'm on the ice so it feels like my feet are a bit quicker, but I wouldn't say they're miles ahead from a performance perspective.

I think a great Frankenskate would be the Shift 1 with its lower cut, toe glove and moldable footbeds, either the Torspo 221 or Shift 2 tendon guards and the weight of the Shift 2s. They're all good skates, but I'd go for either of the KORs over the Torspos. If you can't find the KORs in your size then the Torspos are a decent potential third option.

+1 for a good review of the Kors. after all my research from different sources, these are the results that transpired when i was looking at these skates. I personally have the Shift 2's, while these are my first skates, i have nothing to compare them too, but they do feel great. Recommendation id add though if you end up purchasing these is, bake twice. I baked them once for fitting before hitting the ice with them, now after 3 practices, there are a couple spots ive found i need to form and shape a little more and better around my foot, so tonight they will go in the oven one more time before tomorrow nights practice.

I

[goodguy 7]

Great advice guys...

I was in one of JR's old haunts and saw some KOR Shift2's on display. Damn they still wanted like $329 for them.

Anyway, had my kid try them on next to his current 5.5 JR Vapor XXXX's, a new pair (size 7) Vapor XXXX's, and the KOR Shift 2 (size 8.5).

I can see why the KOR's had trouble catching on:

1) The KOR's looks a bit klunky next to the Vapors (maybe it is the large ass toecap necessitated by the carbon molded bottom or something else but they don't look "fast like the Vapors" as my kid stated).

2) KOR was going up against some seriously dug in notions about skates, etc. (when the skate shop guys all skate in Bauers, that is usually what they push).

3) They don't "try on well". Since they are not baked, and rely upon that so heavily to really see their benefits, it is hard to get buyers to feel good about them in the shop.

4) The neoprene toe cap BS screws up everything when trying on. Not sure if I fully understood the neoprene toe cap liner as it seems like something they didn't really need to have. Maybe it has some good benefits but I don't ever remember many people complaining about their toe cap.

- The biggest problem with the neoprene (which is really just a small layer of neoprene glued to the upper/inside/front of the toe cap) is it completely screwed up the fitting of the skate. Get this - my kid wears a size 9 gym shoe, is coming out of a 5.5 Vapor 40 (which his toe is just touching the cap), would probably take a size 7 Vapor 40 new (if we went that way - with some slight room to grow), but had to take an 8.5 shift2 in the KOR due to the space taken up by the neoprene. The problem is the neoprene makes him think the skate is too small when the holder/steel/boot is probably a good fit at size 8 - but I had to bump him up to a size 8.5 in order for him to say the front was not pushing on his toes. So with an 8.5, he will probably be skating on too much skate, which will be sloppy and hurt performance - especially after the skate is baked and the neoprene loosens up. I guess the good part of that is it appears you could just pull the neoprene out and he would get more life out of the skate - but it was just hard to "know" if the skate was fit right as the neoprene gave a false sense of measure. Too many variables. Maybe if I were buying for myself it would have been easier. When I put the good fitting size 7 Vapor next to the 8.5 KOR - the Kor was longer overall and just seems to be just seemed like too much boot becuase you have to factor in the neoprene and go up in size. It is not like I could rip the neoprene out of the boot in front of the sales guy in order to get a better idea.

5) The moldable shell seemed to have sharp edges which protruded inside the boot right about above the ankle area - hard to know if those would be an issue after baking.

6) Were not as light as the Vapors but pretty close.

7) very deep boot and the eyelet areas are very pliable due to the shell finishing about two inches below the eyelets. Just a strange feeling when lacing as most of the top skates now are so friggin stiff at the eyelets when trying to lace them, it just give you an impression of a very soft skate when lacing. It also really adds to the impression of a super high volume boot as the eyelets can get pretty close together (compared to other boots) after cranking the laces tight.

The good things were:

1) Aside from the klunkynessm they were a nice looking skate in color and style.

2) Seemed to be a decent quality skate.

3) The price (online) is right.

The things I think about when buying skates are: that you will never really know if the skates work as you hoped until you get them on the ice (and that can take quite a bit after baking, wearing around the house, and profiling). So I imagine that is why many buyers do not want to take many chances with such an inexpensive (non-returnable) item.

Kor, while a good product by all accounts, left too many questions in the buyers mind pre-sale. My opinion anyway. I still may buy a pair for myself as I think they are good skates but my kid looked at me like "you aren't going to make me wear those are you?" as if they just were not as "cool" as the Bauers. Kids don't want to always stand out and have others say "what kind of skate are those?" but I guess we all have a fear of being too cutting edge sometimes.

[armada 0]

goodguy your thoughts on the Kor skates are identical to mine. If it wasn't for the price and the fact that they are my roller skates I would be a bit disappointed in them. Coming from the One95's the comfort level isn't close. My biggest issues with the skate are the toe box, very pliable eyelets and the constant rubbing against my upper outer ankle bone. If I had to do it all over again I would save up a few more dollars and purchase a different skate. But for the price that I paid for this type of a skate I can't complain too much.

[majg65 0]

Be careful, you get what you pay for online. I posted recently on the big Kor thread. I just bought a pair of Shift 2 on Ebay (Buy It Now or best deal starting around $100). No mounting plate. Cheap insoles. 2 blocks of thick padding (similar to the VN in some hockey helmets) underneath the insole (one under the heel, one under the forefoot; big gaps where there is no padding). There is some material coming from the sides of the boot which only covers the very sides of the carbon sole from the inside. So there is this thick channel right down the middle. I guess the padding is supposed to fill it in. The left skate does not have the toe liner. I'd suggest having the seller check the skates for you before you buy, and perhaps get a picture of the inside with the insole removed.

[usahockey22 0]

If you are sure you know your kid's size in the bauer, just keep checking ebay and this site for some lightly used vapors. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it", especially at a young age, you don't want to be throwing him off. Money is the issue, so just go the used route, and when your older kid(s) outgrow the skates, pass them on down to the younger ones. No sense purchasing brand new skates every year or two when the feet are still growing so fast.

[goodguy 7]

If you are sure you know your kid's size in the bauer, just keep checking ebay and this site for some lightly used vapors. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it", especially at a young age, you don't want to be throwing him off. Money is the issue, so just go the used route, and when your older kid(s) outgrow the skates, pass them on down to the younger ones. No sense purchasing brand new skates every year or two when the feet are still growing so fast.

Excellent advice !!! and I think you are right.

"If it ain't broke don't fix it" is VERY true with kids.

Don't know if I ever told you about my FBV experiment (switching my kid over to FBV before a tourney game). Dumb idea.

Not that change is bad but changing anything about a kids game when it is working well is hard for them to adjust to.

Now, us older (never going to be anything great) hockey losers can change all day long searching for that extra edge.

Sort of like that new golf driver I am always looking at.