Justin Bourne on the use of Gay slurs in hockey.

[dsjunior1388 81]

http://bleacherreport.com/tb/b1ksF

[Ahriman 1]

could we at least attempt to discourage people from posting a url and calling it a thread?

[MorePower4me 0]

Hmm Tough one.

I think that the NHLPA and the teams can/should make sure that no slurs of any type are allowed in the locker rooms (they are paid employees, they can behave like them) but trying to remove all traces of a**holes from the arena seems hopelessly optimistic.

Especially when they get drunk, and especially when 'groupthink' kicks in...

Sadly I think this will be a problem for a while longer.

[RecLeagueHero 0]

Someone needs to tell this guy to stop being such a fag.

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

[dsjunior1388 81]

could we at least attempt to discourage people from posting a url and calling it a thread?

sorry about that, I planned on weighing in after the conversation got some momentum.

[Ahriman 1]

Reminds me of this:

[Skoda10 14]

It's just like last night's South Park, you just have to change the meaning of the word. :P

Seriously though, it's going to be a long process, each generation those type of sayings/slurs will become less and less acceptable and then eventually fade away. Although I think comments related to being girly or hitting someone with your purse will always be with us, as oppossed to specific homosexual slurs.

[n3ss 0]

i think joking around in the locker room or wherever is harmless. IMO, the straight community is overly afraid of offending people. the funniest gay slurs i've ever heard came from a gay dude.

[Ahriman 1]

i think joking around in the locker room or wherever is harmless. IMO, the straight community is overly afraid of offending people.

first part no second part yes. You dont know everyone as well as you think you do, you will offend people, or maybe not offend, I certainly think less of people who cant come up with something creative and resort to using slurs. And if people weren't so damn afraid of offending each other maybe everyone could have some frank discussions about what is acceptable and what isnt and why they feel that way instead of just pretending hurtful words dont exist until someone commits a hate crime.

[MorePower4me 0]

I think the comic got it right on.

Many of the chronic offenders feel that it is a god given right to say whatever they like, whenever they'd like because they have 'freedom of speech' - the worst ones will mention some family member (typically fictitious) dying or being injured in that pursuit, so they are doubly entitled - and damn the consequences or how anyone else feels about it.

I feel the same about friends who insist in rattling off f-bombs every 4 seconds in a public place with kids nearby. Yes, you can say it, but why? You just sound like an idiot.

I blame overly violent video games...

j/k - but I really don't see this getting fixed anytime soon. These same idiots are the ones shouting racial slurs at the games too, and they've done it for years. The only obvious difference is that you are more likely to find an overly drunk, ready to fight person of whatever race you are insulting than a drunken, blood thirsty homosexual, (not that they don't exits, just less common,) so the fear of getting pummeled is less.

I really think its all those people understand.

[goblue9280 33]

Changing the culture around arenas an inside locker-rooms is a huge (if not impossible) undertaking. There are always going to be idiots. What professional sports in North America needs is a gay Jackie Robinson. A superstar at his sport who has the mental fortitude to be able to continue to play at a high level while brushing off the abuse from teammates, opponents, and fans. The problem is that back in Jackie Robinsons day, there was an entire league of black professional players to hand pick a guy from who had the right combo of mental, emotional and physical strength necessary to take on the job. A league of gay professional hockey players (or baseball/football/basketball) doesn't exist to my knowledge, thus we are all left waiting for an existing superstar to step up, come out of the closet, and be that guy... who knows when that will happen.

[Wolfpack_1986 154]

Changing the culture around arenas an inside locker-rooms is a huge (if not impossible) undertaking. There are always going to be idiots. What professional sports in North America needs is a gay Jackie Robinson. A superstar at his sport who has the mental fortitude to be able to continue to play at a high level while brushing off the abuse from teammates, opponents, and fans. The problem is that back in Jackie Robinsons day, there was an entire league of black professional players to hand pick a guy from who had the right combo of mental, emotional and physical strength necessary to take on the job. A league of gay professional hockey players (or baseball/football/basketball) doesn't exist to my knowledge, thus we are all left waiting for an existing superstar to step up, come out of the closet, and be that guy... who knows when that will happen.

sean avery

[cptjeff 0]

Actually, in pro sports in general I've often wondered if it's Derick Jeter. Yes, he always seems to have a girlfriend, but he's getting up there, never really been that serious about a relationship, never been engaged, so on and so forth. It could very well be that he's just a committed bachelor or bad at or slow with relationships, but the thought has crossed my mind on occasion.

However, I'm not sure it'll happen anytime soon. Being gay isn't like being black in that it's not immediately obvious. A gay athlete growing up in locker rooms hearing all the gay slurs and such in locker rooms is going to keep it private for fear of exclusion from the team atmosphere, and the fact that you're playing with a lot of the same people for years can't help. You would have to fit in. Once you get to the pros and hear the same thing, it's probably worse. If you come out as gay, you make enemies in the locker room. It doesn't matter if they're bigots and completed wrong. You get branded a locker room cancer, so on and so forth. Look at what happened with Magic Johnson when he got aids. Huge issues and rumors that he had to dispel among guys that he had known for years.

When we hear the first big names of gay athletes, they will probably be retired players. The only active players who could pull it off would be superstars- guys with not only the talent to make them irreplaceable, but with the force of personality to get things straight with teammates and to put up with all the shit from opposing players.

However, once you have a guy who comes out it will be the equivalent of Jackie Robinson. If the manliest of the manly, a pro athlete can be gay, it will change people's perception in a way that a million protests and lectures never can.

[RecLeagueHero 0]

Actually, I'd just say Jeter is smart enough to realize that, especially for someone of his material wealth, marriage is bum deal. Looking at the raw numbers of men that fall into what they call "the marriage strike," if you're going to use that as your basis for whose gay then a lot more 2-10% of the population is gay. The whole thing smacks of wanting to make homosexuality out to be the same thing as race, and it's just not.

[cptjeff 0]

That could very well be the deal with Jeter. I don't know about his personal life, I don't claim to. I'm just saying that I wouldn't be totally shocked if he was gay. I hardly think that not being married or being a bachelor at age 30 whatever means you're gay, but in our culture it's not the norm. It could just mean he's into groupies and doesn't want a wife interfering with that. I don't know.

You say it's not the same thing as race. I agree. But that does not make bigotry acceptable in any way. Just becuase the bigotry against gays is not as bad as that against race does not mean it's acceptable. And that point is disputable. Our culture's bigotry against gays is in many ways more entrenched then racism was. The big thing that keeps it from flaring to the top is that there's really no outward indication of sexual orientation. You can't break out a firehose on the street and start hosing down all the gay people. You can't really tell.

But the violence is there. Look up the Stonewall inn, Matthew Sheppard...

[Law Goalie 147]

What, nobody's a fan of scurrilous language any more?

The only response to an attack of wit is an even wittier counterattack. Anything else is implicit capitulation and simultaneous demonstration of inferior mental ability.

Which is why political correctness is not only witless, it's cowardly and embarrassing.

[cptjeff 0]

"Dude, that's gay..." Is pretty much the anti wit. "You're a moron." Is a far more impressive display of wit. I would even rate your mom jokes as more witty then that.

Racial and Ethnic slurs are never "witty", what makes 'gay' and 'fag' as insults any different?

[chippa13 1844]

i think joking around in the locker room or wherever is harmless. IMO, the straight community is overly afraid of offending people. the funniest gay slurs i've ever heard came from a gay dude.

I think the rule follows along with any ethnic or racial slurs, if you're among that group it is permitted but don't use them if you're not.

[Law Goalie 147]

"Dude, that's gay..." Is pretty much the anti wit. "You're a moron." Is a far more impressive display of wit. I would even rate your mom jokes as more witty then that.

Racial and Ethnic slurs are never "witty", what makes 'gay' and 'fag' as insults any different?

What part of the comparative adjectival form went whoosh? If I said one thing was good, and another better, would you be similarly confused?

And, for the record, calling someone a "moron", unless you happen to know the Attic, is a far greater display of dimwittedness. "Gay," at least, is of Frank coinage, and the original denotative meaning of 'merry' directly related to its current connotation of 'homosexual' through a figuration of implicit hyperbolic metynomy that took, oh, eight hundred years to take shape.

Or, to put it another way, "Don't teach your grandmother to suck eggs."

If you think racism can't be witty, I'd suggest you read David Goodman Croly; he perpetrated a piece of satire so durable that ignorant white supremacists are still playing it out on themselves to this day.

[dsjunior1388 81]

Changing the culture around arenas an inside locker-rooms is a huge (if not impossible) undertaking. There are always going to be idiots. What professional sports in North America needs is a gay Jackie Robinson. A superstar at his sport who has the mental fortitude to be able to continue to play at a high level while brushing off the abuse from teammates, opponents, and fans. The problem is that back in Jackie Robinsons day, there was an entire league of black professional players to hand pick a guy from who had the right combo of mental, emotional and physical strength necessary to take on the job. A league of gay professional hockey players (or baseball/football/basketball) doesn't exist to my knowledge, thus we are all left waiting for an existing superstar to step up, come out of the closet, and be that guy... who knows when that will happen.

An interesting theory that I've heard is that it would take a 5 star recruit in some sport, whos openly gay in High School and basically is too good for anyone to ignore or "shun" for being homosexual. And this person is either A: Bold enough, or B. Naive enough, to be able to go through College sports and into the pros being openly gay from the get go, and that will be the most likely way for a "Jackie Robinson" to break down the barrier and possibly open the floodgates.

[RecLeagueHero 0]

That could very well be the deal with Jeter. I don't know about his personal life, I don't claim to. I'm just saying that I wouldn't be totally shocked if he was gay. I hardly think that not being married or being a bachelor at age 30 whatever means you're gay, but in our culture it's not the norm. It could just mean he's into groupies and doesn't want a wife interfering with that. I don't know.

The average age for marriage for a man, according to the Princeton study, is 27.7 years in the US. For most of the western world the average age for a man to be married is over 30. So yeah, it's pretty normal in this day and age for a guy 30 years old to be unmarried.

You say it's not the same thing as race. I agree. But that does not make bigotry acceptable in any way. Just becuase the bigotry against gays is not as bad as that against race does not mean it's acceptable. And that point is disputable. Our culture's bigotry against gays is in many ways more entrenched then racism was. The big thing that keeps it from flaring to the top is that there's really no outward indication of sexual orientation. You can't break out a firehose on the street and start hosing down all the gay people. You can't really tell.

But the violence is there. Look up the Stonewall inn, Matthew Sheppard...

Considering that homosexuals have obtained top tier positions in business, entertainment, the academic world, and even government, it's more than a bit stupid to claim the only thing that keeps people from breaking out the firehoses is that you can't automatically tell if someone is a homosexual or not. Violent incidents that are racially motiviated still happen from time to time, violent incidents that aren't really motivated by anything happen from time to time, so what? Sure, it's tragic, but violence is a part of life.

The vast majority of people are more than fine with allowing consenting adults to do whatever it is they want to do in their bedrooms. In public terms, a lot of people believe it's wrong and don't want to see it legally normalized. Some people want to frame the issue in terms of anyone that doesn't believe homoseuxality is A-OK must have some pathological hatred of homosexuality and I don't believe that's fair. As it relates to the subject at hand, I just don't think some off color locker room jokes have anything to do with homosexuality. Culturally speaking there's a common thread of playful humor in suggesting something about another person you know not to be true. Combine with the occurance of young men's need to establish pecking orders, often resulting in them questioning eachother's manhood, you're going to get jokes designed around implying another individual is gay. I can certainly imagine that for someone whose really gay it might not be a lot of fun. But what do you really suggest be done about it? Historically, we can go back to the Spartans taking shots at the Athenians over their relative tolerance of homosexuality behavior as proof of their lack of masculinity. It's nothing new, it's nothing that's likely to ever change. If being called a fag in the locker room is what qualifies as a "bad thing" in your life it's pretty clear that your life isn't very hard.

[cptjeff 0]

"Dude, that's gay..." Is pretty much the anti wit. "You're a moron." Is a far more impressive display of wit. I would even rate your mom jokes as more witty then that.

Racial and Ethnic slurs are never "witty", what makes 'gay' and 'fag' as insults any different?

What part of the comparative adjectival form went whoosh? If I said one thing was good, and another better, would you be similarly confused?

And, for the record, calling someone a "moron", unless you happen to know the Attic, is a far greater display of dimwittedness. "Gay," at least, is of Frank coinage, and the original denotative meaning of 'merry' directly related to its current connotation of 'homosexual' through a figuration of implicit hyperbolic metynomy that took, oh, eight hundred years to take shape.

Or, to put it another way, "Don't teach your grandmother to suck eggs."

If you think racism can't be witty, I'd suggest you read David Goodman Croly; he perpetrated a piece of satire so durable that ignorant white supremacists are still playing it out on themselves to this day.

Okay, let me get this straight. You're saying "Dude, that was a gay move" is a particularly witty statement?

I'm not sure what part of your statement flew over my head, but it sure read to me like you were defending the use of terms that are commonly used as slurs, whatever their origin- and yes I'm aware of the original meaning of gay- as "attacks of wit".

My statement was meant to state that I do not believe that those statements contain even an ounce of wit, and even a profoundly unwitty comeback would be a wittier comeback.

Also, satire is different then using the term in seriousness. A statement like "Man, you looked gay on that shift" uses the word as a pejorative. A comedian using satire to mock those who make such statements is on the opposite end of the spectrum.

If you told somebody "That was a niggardly play" after they screwed up, you would be thrown out of the rink. And rightfully so. It is not witty, it is bigoted.

Perhaps I completely misunderstood you and you would agree that such statements are to be abhorred. However, I find it rather difficult to read your post in a manner that would reveal such a view. I read your post as defending bigoted uses of the word as wit, and I responded to that reading of your post. If that interpretation was wrong, I apologize. If it was correct, I stand by everything I said.

The average age for marriage for a man, according to the Princeton study, is 27.7 years in the US. For most of the western world the average age for a man to be married is over 30. So yeah, it's pretty normal in this day and age for a guy 30 years old to be unmarried.

Jeter is 35, 6 or 7 years over the US Average. Again, I don't claim to have any knowledge of his personal affairs, he's just struck me as deviating from the norm of pro athletes, who seem to me like they marry quite young.

Considering that homosexuals have obtained top tier positions in business, entertainment, the academic world, and even government, it's more than a bit stupid to claim the only thing that keeps people from breaking out the firehoses is that you can't automatically tell if someone is a homosexual or not. Violent incidents that are racially motiviated still happen from time to time, violent incidents that aren't really motivated by anything happen from time to time, so what? Sure, it's tragic, but violence is a part of life.

Hate crimes should never be excused as "a part of life". Forgive me for thinking such things are abhorrent.

Also, I never intended to imply that we are a recognizable feature away from straight up violence. Drastic violence like that was rare even during the civil rights movement. However, the point was that it's foolish to claim that bigotry against gays is not as bad as bigotry against different races because gays are rarely assaulted in the streets in the manner blacks were, as is often claimed, though not explicitly by anyone on this board. Please do not take my points out of context.

The vast majority of people are more than fine with allowing consenting adults to do whatever it is they want to do in their bedrooms. In public terms, a lot of people believe it's wrong and don't want to see it legally normalized. Some people want to frame the issue in terms of anyone that doesn't believe homoseuxality is A-OK must have some pathological hatred of homosexuality and I don't believe that's fair.

This vast majority would include the majorities who have made gay sex illegal in several states, yes? And the large groups, especially in deep southern states, who have driven people out of neighborhoods becuase they didn't agree with what they did in the bedroom?

If they don't indeed care what they do in the bedroom, what is the objection to legalizing gay marriage? Marrage as a legal institution is a granting of rights- rights to file jointly in some states (some don't require marriage, many do), which lowers the tax burden, the right to live in "families only" zoned neighborhoods, visitation rights in the hospital, automatic power of attorney, automatic property transfer upon death- if passed through a will instead things become subject to all sorts of taxes and regulations. If things pass to your spouse automatically or are jointly owned, there's no paperwork, no duties and fees...

As for it not being fair to characterize the debate in that manner, you're going to have to defend that point. Why is that not in every way fair? "I believe interracial marriages aren't A-Okay, but I'm not bigoted at all, that's not a fair characterization". If you don't care about what other people do in their own bedroom, why are you so eager to pass laws that restrict the rights of people based on what they do in their bedrooms? Do you see the contradiction here?

As it relates to the subject at hand, I just don't think some off color locker room jokes have anything to do with homosexuality. Culturally speaking there's a common thread of playful humor in suggesting something about another person you know not to be true. Combine with the occurance of young men's need to establish pecking orders, often resulting in them questioning eachother's manhood, you're going to get jokes designed around implying another individual is gay. I can certainly imagine that for someone whose really gay it might not be a lot of fun. But what do you really suggest be done about it?

Stop viewing sexuality as an insult. Perhaps being secure enough in yourself that you don't need to question another's manhood? Some things are not proper in public conversation. Many of those things used to be routine, until somebody realized what they really meant. Is "Hey tiny dick" not enough?

Historically, we can go back to the Spartans taking shots at the Athenians over their relative tolerance of homosexuality behavior as proof of their lack of masculinity. It's nothing new, it's nothing that's likely to ever change. If being called a fag in the locker room is what qualifies as a "bad thing" in your life it's pretty clear that your life isn't very hard.

And which ancient greek society do we consider more enlightened?

All things considered I don't really consider being called names in the locker room that big a deal. I know that most of the people in that locker room don't really give it a second thought or seriously mean what they're saying. I do have a problem with the existence of that terminology as an insult and the fact that such usage is acceptable. Gay as a rote insult is also much, much more recent. Think within the last 10 years recent. Serious insults about sexuality are as old as time. Using them as a matter of course in everyday speech isn't. Taking those serious insults and making them more and more acceptable is a problem in my book.

I think that's more then enough for now.

[RecLeagueHero 0]

Jeter is 35, 6 or 7 years over the US Average. Again, I don't claim to have any knowledge of his personal affairs, he's just struck me as deviating from the norm of pro athletes, who seem to me like they marry quite young.

Here's the point: suggesting someone is a homosexual because they aren't married by the time you think this should be is ignorant, don't do it.

Hate crimes should never be excused as "a part of life". Forgive me for thinking such things are abhorrent.

Many things that are abhorrent are a part of life. Of course, I noticed you simply glossed over the fact that reality vs your opinion of how homosexuals are treated is radically different.

Also, I never intended to imply that we are a recognizable feature away from straight up violence. Drastic violence like that was rare even during the civil rights movement. However, the point was that it's foolish to claim that bigotry against gays is not as bad as bigotry against different races because gays are rarely assaulted in the streets in the manner blacks were, as is often claimed, though not explicitly by anyone on this board. Please do not take my points out of context.

Homosexuality is behavior, race is not. Comparing the two is just insulting.

This vast majority would include the majorities who have made gay sex illegal in several states, yes? And the large groups, especially in deep southern states, who have driven people out of neighborhoods becuase they didn't agree with what they did in the bedroom?

And here we go with the "those evil rednecks" speeches.

If they don't indeed care what they do in the bedroom, what is the objection to legalizing gay marriage? Marrage as a legal institution is a granting of rights- rights to file jointly in some states (some don't require marriage, many do), which lowers the tax burden, the right to live in "families only" zoned neighborhoods, visitation rights in the hospital, automatic power of attorney, automatic property transfer upon death- if passed through a will instead things become subject to all sorts of taxes and regulations. If things pass to your spouse automatically or are jointly owned, there's no paperwork, no duties and fees...

Because legalizing homosexual marriage is a public sancation of homosexual behavior. This is taking your behavior out of the bedroom, demand that soceity at large recongize it, and legally sancation it. There's no such thing as a "families only" neighborhood. Descrimination on the basis of familial status is high illegal, even more so in housing.

As for it not being fair to characterize the debate in that manner, you're going to have to defend that point. Why is that not in every way fair? "I believe interracial marriages aren't A-Okay, but I'm not bigoted at all, that's not a fair characterization". If you don't care about what other people do in their own bedroom, why are you so eager to pass laws that restrict the rights of people based on what they do in their bedrooms? Do you see the contradiction here?

One could absolutely feel that way. Who you want to date or marry is an extremely personal preference, and not being attracted to a certain ethnic group is a long way from hating them all. There are lots of vaild reasons why someone might think uni-racial marriages are better. Divorce rates among interracial couples are much, much higher than the national average. Cultural and social support, especially among extended family, is typically better in uni-racial marriages. What you are doing is simply poor logic. You've assumed that because bigots oppose something that everyone who doesn't agree with it must be a bigot. It's kind of like saying because that car is black, everything that is black must be a car. It's a shame they don't teach rehtoric in schools anymore.

Stop viewing sexuality as an insult. Perhaps being secure enough in yourself that you don't need to question another's manhood? Some things are not proper in public conversation. Many of those things used to be routine, until somebody realized what they really meant. Is "Hey tiny dick" not enough?

Most people are creeped out by homosexuality to one degree or another. It's not necessarily a bad thing, in and of itself. Of course, it is if you have some pathological hatred. On the other hand, heterosexual relationships are pretty vital to our survival as a species. It's just how it is. You can frustrate the hell out of yourself by trying to make the whole world conform to what you want it to be, of you can chose not to make homosexual references and accept the rest of the world for how it is.

And which ancient greek society do we consider more enlightened?

I wouldn't really consider either soceity enlightened. The Spartan system of government, duel kings, was unique and it worked pretty well. Sure, the Athenians dabbled in democractic rule. But they pretty much just proved why pure democracy is unworkable. Practices like black balling allowed the Athenians to have people they simply didn't care for banished, and legions of other civic abuses carried out by vote. Both soceities were slave holding, but at least in the Spartan military system one could rise in social status by merit based action. In Athenian soceity you were either born to wealth or you weren't. So like many things in life, nothing is so simple as you'd like to make it out to be.

All things considered I don't really consider being called names in the locker room that big a deal. I know that most of the people in that locker room don't really give it a second thought or seriously mean what they're saying. I do have a problem with the existence of that terminology as an insult and the fact that such usage is acceptable. Gay as a rote insult is also much, much more recent. Think within the last 10 years recent. Serious insults about sexuality are as old as time. Using them as a matter of course in everyday speech isn't. Taking those serious insults and making them more and more acceptable is a problem in my book.

You could look at it that way, or you could say that the fact it's so common is because homosexuality has gained a lot of social approval. In the past homosexuality was so taboo no one even thought about it. That's obviously changed.

[Wolfpack_1986 154]

this is getting retarded

[RecLeagueHero 0]

That statement is offensive to the mentally challanged. We definately need to change the locker room culture of people calling eachother retarded. I mean, you never can tell if you're actually talking to a retard when you say something like that.