No Holds Fighting

[docar15 1]

Collecting opinions on no-holds fighting rule.

Good idea? Bad idea?

Many have seen players hang on to another players jersey in a fight like it is his mother's skirt on the first day of kindergarten.

Some go so deep to hide their chins, it's embarrassing.

Rules suggestion is that if you fight, both hands are free. If you hold, get an extra for holding or even more.

Too dangerous?

[Law Goalie 147]

Extremely good idea. The vast majority of injuries in fights come from playing throwing or dragging each other down, which started out as a result of moron commentators calling "decisions on takedowns" for fights that were, as you say, largely skirt-grabbing contests. Apart from Fedoruk (several years ago), when was the last time we saw someone seriously hurt by a punch?

I would allow players to grab the sleeves of the opponent's jersey, but nothing from the shoulders in. The kind of crap that Kessler pulled on Ladd, grabbing his ankle and throwing him backwards, should have warranted a huge suspension.

[LivHockey84 0]

Andreas Lilja of Det had post concussion syndrome for about 11 months from a fight last year. He played his first game since the fight on Wednesday.

[Chadd 916]

If you don't want someone getting hurt in a fight, eliminate fighting. Eliminating holding in a fight will just increase the number of guys that end up with serious injuries like broken jaws, orbital bones and concussions.

[jumtao 0]

Eliminating the jersey grab isn't going to do much in my opinion. People can and will still get hurt. Mind you that if the jersey grabbing is eliminated, it becomes a boxing match which more often then not allows for cleaner blows to the face.

These are trained hockey players and not 'real' fighters. I think it's fine the way it is.

[Chadd 916]

These are trained hockey players and not 'real' fighters. I think it's fine the way it is.

More and more guys are training as boxers in the off season.

[Law Goalie 147]

That's why I like the compromise of allowing the sleeves to be held, but penalising wrestling. The punches still get slowed down, the arms can be controlled. It could even be extended to the neckline of the jersey to allow for the sweater-jab.

The crap with flipping the other guy over on his head has to end. It's dangerous and gutless.

[Chadd 916]

That's why I like the compromise of allowing the sleeves to be held, but penalising wrestling. The punches still get slowed down, the arms can be controlled. It could even be extended to the neckline of the jersey to allow for the sweater-jab.

The crap with flipping the other guy over on his head has to end. It's dangerous and gutless.

So you want the refs to become boxing judges in addition to all of the other stuff they do? There is already too much going on for refs to be expected to judge everything involved with a fight. Especially when you're talking about hand placement as the guys circle and throw punches. The refs would have to get pretty close to be able to see what was happening in a lot of cases.

[J22 0]

I wont try to speak for Law but i think what he is getting at is maybe there should be an additional penalty for the takedowns or tackles that are happening way to often lately?

[JDeezy 0]

Eliminating the jersey grab isn't going to do much in my opinion. People can and will still get hurt. Mind you that if the jersey grabbing is eliminated, it becomes a boxing match which more often then not allows for cleaner blows to the face.

These are trained hockey players and not 'real' fighters. I think it's fine the way it is.

I agree. I think the thing that has allowed fighting in hockey is that even the fights aren't "real fights" 90% of the time, it's a grappling match and people rarely get seriously injured. If shirt grabbing was banned, it would only allow cleaner head shots resulting in more KO's and concussions. IMHO, we dont need to moderate the aspect of fighting cause then it's just too much focus and adds rules ontop of rules. Next thing you know, boxing has to be a drill in hockey practice. Even people like Colton Orr and Cam Jansen need to be hockey players before and more so than they are fighters.

[docar15 1]

At first yes, but eventually, we may stop seing people like Semin getting into fights. I thought it would be a good idea to leave fighting to people who can fight. Separate fighting from good old physical hockey. Some of the fights right now look very sad. Basically my opinion is that if a person can't fight, they should not fight. If you think you are ready, but you are not, get knocked down and back to the bag you go. Just like in the rink.

On personal note, how many times did you have to hold your own punches back because the schmuck who started the fight would most likely get crippled if delivered 'full service'?

There was a show match on YouTube between a heavy and feather weight. Little guy kept coming in good, nice and active, great moves. Then the heavy knocked him out completely by accident, video stopped when they were up to 47 seconds and counting. If I find it, I will post it here. Very educational.

Again, just my opinion.

JDeezy - Didn't Manny Stewart open a place in NY :-)? I went to his gym in Detroit for a couple of years in mid 90s. He is one of the best. Kronk for life.

Maybe this no holds thing was a dumb idea, after all we are there to play or watch hockey, like you said.

If you don't want someone getting hurt in a fight, eliminate fighting. Eliminating holding in a fight will just increase the number of guys that end up with serious injuries like broken jaws, orbital bones and concussions.

[Kevin 5]

Fighting well takes lots of training. If I want to watch a fight, I will choose MMA or boxing. I do not watch hockey for fights.

Personally, I can't stand fights erupting every time there is a solid, clean open ice hit that puts the other player on his ass.

[Chadd 916]

At first yes, but eventually, we may stop seing people like Semin getting into fights. I thought it would be a good idea to leave fighting to people who can fight. Separate fighting from good old physical hockey. Some of the fights right now look very sad. Basically my opinion is that if a person can't fight, they should not fight. If you think you are ready, but you are not, get knocked down and back to the bag you go. Just like in the rink.

On personal note, how many times did you have to hold your own punches back because the schmuck who started the fight would most likely get crippled if delivered 'full service'?

What you are talking about is players no longer standing up for themselves when they have been hit by a cheap shot or overly aggressive play. The only fights would be between the otherwise useless players at the end of the bench whose sole job on the ice is to fight. I don't want to see trained boxers interrupt a hockey game, I want to see hockey. And if something happens that a player feels can only be remedied by fighting, that's when we should see that player fight the person that wronged him.

[NuggyBuggy 0]

In football, when a hard or even dirty hit occurs, no-one feels the need to seek additional retribution beyond what the officials and the league see fit to dole out. Players nail each other, but after that, play continues with no spectre of retaliation looming over the rest of the game.

I just don't understand how anyone could argue hockey is so different that additional checks and balances in the form of fighting should be required. I think it's clear this is a cultural issue and not a de facto requisite of contact sports.

[Chadd 916]

In football, when a hard or even dirty hit occurs, no-one feels the need to seek additional retribution beyond what the officials and the league see fit to dole out. Players nail each other, but after that, play continues with no spectre of retaliation looming over the rest of the game.

I just don't understand how anyone could argue hockey is so different that additional checks and balances in the form of fighting should be required. I think it's clear this is a cultural issue and not a de facto requisite of contact sports.

In the NFL players know that the league will hand out big fines and suspensions if they catch it on tape. Colin Campbell is unlikely to do anything and a $2500 fine is laughable to most players.

[chippa13 1844]

What you are talking about is players no longer standing up for themselves when they have been hit by a cheap shot or overly aggressive play. The only fights would be between the otherwise useless players at the end of the bench whose sole job on the ice is to fight. I don't want to see trained boxers interrupt a hockey game, I want to see hockey. And if something happens that a player feels can only be remedied by fighting, that's when we should see that player fight the person that wronged him.

My thoughts exactly. As for getting rid of the holds, that would get guys beaten to within an inch of their life since a fair share of the holding prevents haymakers and ends the fights when guys are exhausted.

[docar15 1]

My thoughts exactly. As for getting rid of the holds, that would get guys beaten to within an inch of their life since a fair share of the holding prevents haymakers and ends the fights when guys are exhausted.

Like I said, this was a bad idea. Lets make sure Bettman does not hear about it. He would probably be all over selling tickets to a hockey game and a boxing match under the same venue. Have a girl skate around in a nice bikini holding a sign what period it is will complete the picture.

[NuggyBuggy 0]

In the NFL players know that the league will hand out big fines and suspensions if they catch it on tape. Colin Campbell is unlikely to do anything and a $2500 fine is laughable to most players.

I agree this is true for the egregous offences, but what I am most perplexed about are hits that are supposed to be part of the game.

If a guy in the NFL gets hit by a hard, clean hit, and the recipient is taken off the field on a stretcher, play goes on, with everybody recognizing that the hit is part of the game.

If a guy in the NHL gets hit by a hard, clean hit, and the recipient is taken off the field on a stretcher, there is the expectation and even likelihood of some retribution, even though such hits are also ostensibly part of the game.

Even if a guy in the NFL delivers an illegal hit (say, a chop block, or a block in the back), the guy's team may get penalized but regardless, everyone goes about their business.

The NFL has been very good about doling out punishment for the serious infractions. But hits that are supposed to be part of the game are accepted by football players as such. Why is the latter so often not the case in the NHL ?

[Chadd 916]

If a guy in the NHL gets hit by a hard, clean hit, and the recipient is taken off the field on a stretcher, there is the expectation and even likelihood of some retribution, even though such hits are also ostensibly part of the game.

There are very few legitimate clean, hard hits anymore in the NHL. The vast majority of big hits are shots to the head or guys getting drilled into the boards. Some may call them clean, others will disagree. I wish we had more clean, hard hits instead of the cheap shots and attempts to injure that pass for hitting today.

[Jason Harris 31]

I agree this is true for the egregous offences, but what I am most perplexed about are hits that are supposed to be part of the game.

If a guy in the NFL gets hit by a hard, clean hit, and the recipient is taken off the field on a stretcher, play goes on, with everybody recognizing that the hit is part of the game.

If a guy in the NHL gets hit by a hard, clean hit, and the recipient is taken off the field on a stretcher, there is the expectation and even likelihood of some retribution, even though such hits are also ostensibly part of the game.

Even if a guy in the NFL delivers an illegal hit (say, a chop block, or a block in the back), the guy's team may get penalized but regardless, everyone goes about their business.

The NFL has been very good about doling out punishment for the serious infractions. But hits that are supposed to be part of the game are accepted by football players as such. Why is the latter so often not the case in the NHL ?

I've been saying the same thing for years.

Wes Welker was absolutely clocked in 2008 by Ryan Clark (I believe) of the Steelers. It knocked him out for the remainder of the game. There was no retaliation, even though some on the Patriots thought it was an illegal hit, since they felt Clark had time to pull up. The NFL agreed with the ruling on the field, meaning Clark wasn't fined, so the only fallout for the incident were some people suggesting that Matt Cassel threw the pass in an area that made Welker vulnerable.

Contrast that with the NHL and this recent quote by Claude Julien, lamenting that Mark Stuart is out with a broken finger he sustained while defending himself against Wayne Simmonds (who wears a visor), after making a clean hit against Anze Kopitar (who agreed after the game that the hit was clean).

That was as clean of a hit as you'll see, no doubt. They should have been jumping on the defenseman for making that pass (from behind the net), not jumping on Stewie, that's what they should have done. But unfortunately this league seems to be heading in that direction, when a good, clean hit is given, everybody -- (including) ourselves -- we go and defend our teammates.

Obviously, that was one of their best players that took that hit. If you look at what's going on around the league, it was kind of a normal reaction. Unfortunately, we have a guy right now that's out of our lineup because he stood there and defended himself.

[Chadd 916]

The NHL has a rule in place to handle the guys rushing to "defend" their guy after a clean hit, the instigator penalty. How many times have you seen it used in those situations? It's another case of the officials, and their supervisors, allowing the game to change for the worse through inaction. The funny thing is, people openly lobby for the removal of the instigator rule. If that happened, this stuff would get even worse.