Innovation

[Chad Seibel 2]

OK, I have a question for you guys. Who do you fell is the most innovated company in inline hockey? Please take a second and think over the last few years at what has been brought to the sport and who did the bringing. Do not just say your favorite brand, but lets see what you see in the sport and why you think that way.

[Sprungster 5]

"Innovation may refer to incremental and emergent or radical and revolutionary changes in thinking, products, processes, or organizations. Following Schumpeter (1934), contributors to the scholarly literature on innovation typically distinguish between invention, an idea made manifest, and innovation, ideas applied successfully in practice."

Here's both.

[sdcopp 1]

Chad I think you’re asking the impossible here to name just one company. I mean let’s take a look:

Mission: materials across the board every year for the last few years. The materials the skates have been built from in and out, the breathability and materials of the pants, shin sling, Fuel TI/Titanium sticks with the titanium wrap VDS blades and soft touch coating in an affordable package, broad use of magnesium alloy in chassis. If anyone is truly the most innovative, it’d be Mission by quantity of innovations since each year they have seemed to change up everything they offered. Not all innovations are good ones though as the DNA strands eventually proved, and by pushing out so much new there’s the higher likelihood of having a bad year across the board. There’s also the upside of possibly having an amazing year across the board.

Tour: DPS outsole system, skate external materials, design/graphic changes in new products, off the shelf sublimated jerseys with killer graphics. You guys have always done a good job doing your own thing, the one thing is the line-up/naming convention seems haphazardly changing as the new products are released intermittently and lack a sense of cohesion comparatively to the other big inline brands. I think it's fine to rename each year/product cycle so long as it's a fresh new line with cohesion up and down the line instead of having old line interspersed with new line. The Hummer offer you guys did direct to consumer might well be the best program I ever saw come from a company and completely innovative.

Rink Rat: the company that turned dual pour wheels inside out and built an immediate foundation from that as a top wheel company. The world cup wheel is probably the best hands down wheel for outdoor rinks.

Revision: the other new giant among wheels, the popular debate being which is better, Revision or Rink Rat? The C-Note frame and wheel can’t be overlooked either as significant innovations to work/think outside the proverbial box.

Sprung: nuff said as far as innovations go, innovation is all Keith knows as he came from so far out of left field that there’s no great comparison to what Sprungs offer those who love them.

Labeda: Labeda is an interesting one. They don’t make my list of constantly innovative companies. They are more of a milestones followed by steady sales. The original Gripper Snapper, the Gripper Millenium and the latest Addiction wheel all examples of where they have met the challenges of the market and raised the bar a little higher. They have put themselves back into the mix recently with the Addiction wheel.

Each company has contributed something to shift the paradigm even a little bit. The innovations that really matter are the ones that keep a company going. I loved Nexed skates with the 2 degree frame, but they are one of many companies that just didn’t last. Quickchange while super innovative had sort of a failure to launch issue.

[Chad Seibel 2]

SD, good reply. I can agree with some of your statements, but I guess I am coming more from a standpoint of not just bringing in new products, but ones that stick and stand the tests of time and performance and a little changing of the market.

I agree for example that Sprung is way outside the box and delivers a new product to the market and they may arguably be a good innovation and a great product, but are they the most innovative company in years?

Who cares about the inline hockey world enough to look at the sport and address the needs of it? An example would be the upper body protector. Here is a product that was not in the market and Tour saw the need for a protective garment that would help protect the players who did not want traditional shoulder pads. I know I am putting a plug out there for the company I work for, but I just think sometimes marketing gets in the way of what is really happening out there and which companies truly care about our sport.

For the record, I see Tour as developing and innovating a lot for the inline world and I like to say that we are the most innovative, if not right there with any company. Now saying that, I am curious if i am just drinking my own propaganda kool-aid or if others see us that way as well.

Chime in people and agree or strongly disagree with me, that is my purpose here. I like to know the truth, but be ready to back up your thoughts in a healthy discussion.

[steve66 45]

On the whole, taking into account the number of innovations, the quality of the innovations, and the length of time they have been introducing innovative products i have to give Mission the nod. If you break down the possible categories like SD did in his post, I agree that in other areas such as wheels and chassis to name two, you would have to rightly say that other companies are perhaps more innovative.

[sdcopp 1]

Chad,

I can agree that Tour has done a lot for the sport and always been there for the inline player. That is why I respect guys like you and Walt so much, I know that there are companies that support those of us that choose wheels to steel. All of the companies I listed out are companies that I personally feel have had the inline game close to their heart, thus no Reebok/CCM or Bauer (prior to the acquisition of Mission, we'll see what that future holds) mentions.

A couple times now you talk about marketing getting in the way. I agree that sometimes the big flashy gimmicks behind less weight, skate faster, better feel, shoot harder, etc. does sway people's decisions. The hook with that is the companies that often succeed with such marketing are the companies people trust already and have track records of making at least competant product if not downright good ones. I say don't bash the marketing, but rather market bigger and better while keeping it ethically sound. Innovation without marketing leads to dead-ends. I think inline has a huge audience of players and fans that would respond very well to viral marketing via things like Youtube, and there's only been a few scratches on the surface of that from events like Narch and Torhs. Itan Chavira is a prime example of self-marketing that works, love him or hate him people watch what he posts on video channels online.

Back to the topic at hand though, I think your propaganda kool-aid is well founded as Tour has been there for well over a decade along with only a couple other brands. Brand I think is more important though instead of any individual product advancement or innovation. Evolution and growth has to accompany the innovations. Some areas Tour has taken the lead or at the least been neck and neck with a competitor, and others Tour is behind.

[TheEdge27 2]

"Recent research has shown the empirical evidence for globalization of corporate innovation is very limited. And as a corollary, the market for technologies is shrinking. As a world leader, it is important for America to provide systematic research grants for our scientists.

I believe there will always be a need for us to have a well-articulated innovation policy with emphasis on human resource development. Thank you...."

-will ferrell

[littlehockeymatt 0]

I'd say tour has come ALONG way in the past few years. example skates: (my old skates tour code 1) those where great skates. problem was durablitly. But from the cobalt q's and the tabu tour looks like there going the right direction, even in the pants(customizeable) i got the lion heart pants a year and half ago and great pant and i miss the hummer frame(just not into the hilo as much i liked the hummer). Mission(current skates) one word "outstanding" the boss blacks i have are comterable, and the new solider se pants i have are very breathable. Both companies are doing great, but i must say im concerned that bauer will ruin the skates. but i dont know. i havnt tried there new skates. (bottom line for me i love mission boots and the hummer frame) and pants are the same

[hehatemefrisbee 0]

Roller hockey in itself is innovation. I truly admire the companies like Mission, Tour, Revision, Labeda, Sprung, and Rink Rat. These companies arent like Bauer or Reebok that kind of jumped on the bandwagon. Mission and Tour especially have been there since day one. So, with that in mind, and being an inline player for almost 15 years, I have had the opportunity to use a roller specific product from all of the above mentioned companies. Mission im my mind were the most innovative company out there. They constantly had new ideas and different thoughts on how to make a piece of equipment for roller and for ice. Sometimes it didnt work, and to me thats ok, because at least they tried. Sadly, I feel like since they have been taken over, they lost a bit of their soul.

Now with Tour, you have a lot of innovations in their history. The fishbone skate, then bringing the Hum'er with the DPS outsole. That is truly innovative thinking. To get top end speed by cutting a groove in the boot without sacrificing comfort takes some outside of the box thinking. Tour has always had one of the most comfortable skates on the market, especially during a time when Missions would just ruin your feet because they were just so damn stiff. Tour started to think a little out of the box with the wave shaft. I never used it, so I couldnt tell you if it worked, but the idea of energy flowing down the waves of the shaft was a pretty novel idea. Now Chad I kind of have to disagree with you in regards to the upper body protector. Yes there was a need for it, but you guys met the demand, you didnt exactly come up with something that took a risk. Their was a demand, and you met it with a very good product. And now you see Mission and various other companies have copied you with their own versions.

The Sprung chassis, while not my cup of tea, is an innovation in itself. As others have stated, it is a completely new idea and approach to how to get the maximum in performance. However, my complaint with it is it seems to cater to the ice player trying to play roller. Just my thoughts.

Revision is my new number one innovator. The Variant wheel has its own technology that other wheels cannot replicate. To me its the best wheel made to date, and the quality control is unmatched. As a guy that weighs over 200 lbs, to get a wheel that will last me the entire season playing 3-4 nights a week is pretty damn impressive. But they are going beyond wheels. The viceroy stick for instance. Ive never even used it, but I can tell looking at the roller world that its starting to get some exposure. Now it may just be a normal stick at a good price, my point is here is a wheel company that is ambitious enough to build its own stick and put its name on it. Takes some cajones. But on top of that they decide to throw all the usual chassis constructions and set ups out the door, and come out with something I dont think anyone would have thought they would ever see. A 100 mm wheel!? when i saw it I thought they were nuts. But now I see kids using these skates and loving them. Must be doing something right. I hope they have continued success because roller hockey needs innovation to stay alive and fresh.

The bottom line is what I just said. In order for roller to stay alive in a time when recreation sports are suffering more than ever, we need fresh ideas and innovations. In a poor economy there tends to be a cautious approach to business, just look at Reebok's 2010 ice hockey line for evidence of that. While in some cases caution is the right way to go, sometimes playing it safe is the wrong way to go. Im glad that you asked this question Chad. I think as a representative of Tour, you can take the responses back to whoever makes the big decisions there, and tell them what the roller players need and want to see. This is why MSH is such a great tool for manufacturers, players, and retailers.

[diablo42 0]

I'm not a big fan of their products but I think the most innovative hockey company is MISSION. Since the begining, always challenging their own and the other companies products, taking risks, looking for better performance.

You can love it or hate it, but you can't ignore it...........

[Sprungster 5]

"The Sprung chassis, while not my cup of tea, is an innovation in itself. As others have stated, it is a completely new idea and approach to how to get the maximum in performance. However, my complaint with it is it seems to cater to the ice player trying to play roller. Just my thoughts."

This is how innovation helps grow inline hockey.

[Chad Seibel 2]

Great feedback people. I think this sport needs this healthy dose of iron sharpening iron. People looking at this sport should see passion and they should see innovation. I hope companies like Revision can continue to do what they do. They have brought some interesting things to the game.

However, the wheel that I think is heads and tails above any wheel i have tried out there, the Addiction, by Labeda. Tour does use specifically Labeda wheels on our skates, but this wheel is the real deal. It is a truly great wheel that for all our testing in choosing a wheel supplier for our new skates is well above the competition in the development of new technologies in wheels.

I can remember 15 years ago when I broke 38 wheels in 14 games in the RHI, we are well beyond that now and I cannot wait to see where we will go. What are ideas you guys are hoping for?

[mattzilla 0]

"However, my complaint with it is it seems to cater to the ice player trying to play roller. Just my thoughts."

I agree with this statement somewhat. I don't want my inlines to feel like ice. i want my inlines to feel like inlines.

[hehatemefrisbee 0]

"The Sprung chassis, while not my cup of tea, is an innovation in itself. As others have stated, it is a completely new idea and approach to how to get the maximum in performance. However, my complaint with it is it seems to cater to the ice player trying to play roller. Just my thoughts."

This is how innovation helps grow inline hockey.

Which is a valid point. It does help grow and the ice market is a good market to go after, since they already like one form of hockey. I wasnt trying to criticize, just offering my thoughts. In fact, I think you do have a great product. Its just not something i personally like.

I can remember 15 years ago when I broke 38 wheels in 14 games in the RHI, we are well beyond that now and I cannot wait to see where we will go. What are ideas you guys are hoping for?

I think if you are asking what I would like Tour to do, I would like it if you guys came up with a better way to release skates. If I go on inlinewarehouse.com I see four different skates that are top of the line. Now I know that its true that they do have some older skates on there, but I think if you moved a little towards the mainstream as far as naming your products you would see greater brand recognition.

I think in general I just want to see companies going above and beyond the idea of just putting new graphics on a product and calling it new.

[Chad Seibel 2]

"However, my complaint with it is it seems to cater to the ice player trying to play roller. Just my thoughts."

I agree with this statement somewhat. I don't want my inlines to feel like ice. i want my inlines to feel like inlines.

I like this!

[Sprungster 5]

I like this!

Change is part of innovation. Resistance to change in universal. Inline skates can feel different now. Innovation.

[ncbrock 0]

I think Keith is a big innovator. I havnt really had a piece of equipment that really changed me that much it was just some new equipment (besides switching from a wood to composite stick) The sprungs are great technology and is pushing the sport forward. I dont really think of mission or any other company is making something completely different or blowing people away, sticks are sticks, i dont see any company trying to change those besides warrior (spyne technology) and rbk (o stick) Skates are skates, I havnt seen a step forward in skate technology because its a basic idea that really cant be changed besides materials.

Keith changed the way I looked at skates.

[sdcopp 1]

@Brock:

Don't mistake small innovations as lack of innovation. Oftentimes the big ideas either completely shift the paradigm or die quickly. Oftentimes they end up doing both once their lifecycle is complete. That's why I said all innovations require evolution and growth, a new idea is not enough by itself, and any company who has pinned their success to a single product has either been acquired or failed in the long term, at least every company that comes to mind that only had one big shot of product and ideas.

[Lufria 1]

First off, great topic. Also nice to see Chad on the boards and with this healthy discussion on innovation and just how much inline hockey is designed with innovation in mind!

I have to give the nod to Revision Hockey for innovation. For those of you that know me, I refuse to skate on anything but Revision wheels. Our team is sponsored by Revision and give us team pricing on equipment.

Nabeel and Revision constantly are finding new ways and new methods to make already existing products better. Their wheels and marketability are absolutely key in their success - TORUS technology might be a nice implementation to their wheels, but it really steps up when the Wheel Matrix is applied. Rather than make 5-7 different lines of wheels, they make a quality outdoor wheel and a quality indoor wheel, and customize your skating ability by placing wheels in specific combinations.

Then you have their skate, which truly requires a bold move by a company to attempt to do something that isn't exactly accepted by the inline community immediately by placing a 100mm wheel in the rear of the skate. Everyone has their opinions on it, but you can't deny when the entire PRO Buffalo Wings out of Buffalo New York is skating on them.

This is proof that innovation is a large part of a successful hockey company, especially inline hockey. With so many competitors and companies over saturating the market, it's the small, special stuff companies do to win the customers over.

[RevisionHockey 0]

This is a great discussion. My hats off to Chad for posting what I may feel is perhaps the best question I have seen yet on any of these forums that both gives consumers an opportunity to give their opinions, and provides great motivation for manufacturers. I think all of the companies in question have been innovative whether it be consistently, currently, or at one point in time. I know the owners of Revision always insisted on innovation, as a matter of fact what many people may not know is that is where the name of our company was born. Neal Piper and Tony Gabriele felt that the technology behind wheels for inline hockey had become out dated and felt it was time for a new vision or "Revision" of how a wheel helps a skaters performance on the rink.

I feel Mission was the leader in innovation for quite sometime. Now I am not so sure. Perhaps they have been forced to protect their large customer base by not being too risky moving forward the last few years.

Tour I feel with the implementation of the hummer chasis, along with some of the other points Chad mentioned previously has certainly stepped up in the last few years.

LaBeda - originally provided the first step in bringing wheels towards what they are now.

Revision- as for our company we take tremendous pride in not making products that just mirror what is in the market place and simply add another vendor to the list. We believe the true growth will be through the integrity of the purpose behind the brand. Bringing products to the market designed to give the experienced skater an advantage on the rink resulting from an increase in performance. Thanks to the many of you who support us and have taken notice of this.

I think all guys like myself, Chad, Sean, Joe etc can ask for is that even if you do not chose to purchase our products that they are respected and considered based upon the fact that we produce quality products, and that we do our best to give back or contribute to the great sport of Inline Hockey. As there are some brands out there without going into details that do not. Ultimately you must purchase the product that best suits your needs individually.

I hope many more people will respond to this discussion, and I look forward to reading all of your responses.

Regards,

Nabeel Gerges

[Hoffer 0]

I also agree this is a great discussion and have really enjoyed readying everyone’s input. I don’t think that there is one company in the industry that is the most revolutionary but by an effort through numerous company’s the equipment we wear has really changed in the past couple years. Here is a list of company’s I think that have really brought innovation to the industry.

Sprung – To me its easy to see just how much they have changed the game when it comes to frames. They have given all those ice players who want to play roller the ability to play and still feel like they are skating on ice. As a player who has used sprungs, they defiantly give you the ice feel, but for those of us who started playing roller first it is not always what you are looking for. None the less a real game changer

Mission – In recent years what really comes to mind for me is the thorax girdle, if I recall it was a real first in roller hockey protection when the first version came out. It was light, tight fitting and still very protective.

Tour – The hummer frame and DPS technology is huge. I skate solely on the hummer and you can see the impact it has had in roller hockey as more and more players use the hummer frame on non-tour skates and dremel out part of the outsole to duplicate the DPS technology.

Revision – In recent years I would say one of the most innovative company’s in the industry. The Torus technology gives their variant wheels a feel that for me has remained unmatched by any other company, however the wheels do not seem to last as long as other brands, I hope this has been addressed in the new 2010 Variants. Secondly, the Vanquish skate brings yet another option for skaters and their big wheel technology has already became a proven choice for many skaters.

Labeda – I cannot speak on the addiction wheel, I have yet to use it.

So what will be the next big innovation in the industry? I personally hope soon a company will release a fully thermable boot like the one95, totalONE, and U+ ice skates.

[sdcopp 1]

I agree with Hoffer that a fully heat formable skate is the next logical step in skate evolution for the inline side of things, the technology and materials for it is getting better each year.

One thing I would like to see is mid to upper end protective that breathes better than the stuff on the market now but is equally protective. No rink feels great mid-summer once you have all your gear on, and while jerseys, pants and protective items like the Thorax girdles for example have made strides to be better, shins and elbows in particular remain relatively unchanged as far as the breathable focus goes. That might just not be feasible from a business perspective though.

The other items I think there is a distinct lack of is outdoor focused products. ABS blades are getting fewer and further between, and other than low end skates there's no real outdoor skate packages. I know at least one of the outdoor rinks in my locality will be busy with nicer weather throughout the week through summer and into early fall, and I'm sure there are other regions that have had similar support from their city's park and rec associations with getting outdoor rinks put up. Maybe a $200ish line skate with some randing around the boot instead of just a small scuff patch and outdoor wheels with internal structure and comfort that indoor skates of the $200 price point offer. Again, may not be a real feasible business plan, but food for thought.

[Chad Seibel 2]

Here is a question for ya....If innovation comes to the sport that does not pan out, does that mean that is was a bad try?

[hehatemefrisbee 0]

Here is a question for ya....If innovation comes to the sport that does not pan out, does that mean that is was a bad try?

Any try in my book is worth it. If it didnt work, you have to look back at the reasons as to why. You know maybe there are some things that were great about it, that didnt exactly catch on at the time. Perfect example, the Mission Flyweight shaft. At the time Mission wasnt big in sticks or shafts, but that started the whole tapered shaft business that spawned the one piece stick. So while the produce didnt exactly take off for Mission, its changed the thinking of everyone else. All new and exciting ideas are a good thing!

[Sprungster 5]

Here is a question for ya....If innovation comes to the sport that does not pan out, does that mean that is was a bad try?

If you don't shoot you don't score.