Stance Comparison

[srv2miker 0]

A fried came to one of my last drop in nights and snapped a few pictures. I thought it was interesting to see how my stance has evolved since I've been playing. The first shot (my old stance) was taken about a year ago (at which point I probably had 12 months of ice time under my belt), with the second shot was taken two weeks ago.

The main differences are my glove position, the width of my base, and the positioning of my chest (more over my skates to help power down into my bfly).

Old:

New:

[goaliemanshark 6]

Im amazed you have two pictures that are so similar and comparable. Lucky! Im no goalie stance expert but isn't the old stance's glove position more ideal? Also are the new pads longer then the old pads or is your stance that different? Either way you look much better and more comfortable!

[hamstercaster 2]

It's a bit hard to evalutate because the second stance has a shooter in somewhat close. First stance, most would say that your glove position is not good and I would agree with that statement. Your glove is facing down, not quite at the fingers up position, nor facing the shooter. Blocker a bit low and back.

As for the second picture, I think that you would benefit from bringing your gloves a bit higher and forward. Gloves should be in front of your body. Stick positioning looks good to me.

[IniNew 51]

Very relevant actually:

http://ingoalmag.com/technique/goaltending-technique-effective-stance/

I just happened to be reading this a few days ago.

[Law Goalie 147]

I rather like Miker's new stance. At the very least, he looks a lot more settled and comfortable.

There really are two schools of thought on glove position. I personally prefer the 'active hands' position, with the gloves held well out in front of the body and the pocket of the glove aiming slightly downward at the puck, parallel to the vertical angle. (Key point: pocket-up, NOT fingers-up.)

Having said that, Miker's showing a rather excellent 'handshake' glove position, with the wrist slightly extended and the glove slightly more open to the shooter than a classic Quebecois goalie like, say, Giguere or Luongo (though they have different gurus/coaches, there are striking similarities). This is the hand position that Koho/Lefebvre gloves naturally favour (excepting the P3), which is part of the reason why, when he's trying an 'active glove' position in the first shot, he ends up with his glove in a 'yo-yo' position pointing the palm down at the ice. He's got his elbows tight to his body, showing no holes, and the glove is kept relatively low to force the shooter high, with the hand ready to sweep across the body for a gut-trap or cradle.

Much as I like Ken DiOrio's writing generally, that's not usually Kiprusoff's glove position or orientation: he rarely if ever goes fingers-up in a shot-ready stance. It looks more like he's experimenting in practise with that one. The classic Kipper glove position is the 'Finnish Flip,' which has the palm held partly open to the shooter, partly across the body, but well out ahead; in anticipation of the shot, the Fin 'flips' the glove closed across his body at the wrist, opening up the top corner; the wrist then spring back to full extension during the release, taking away space and giving a little momentum. It's argued convincingly that this is biomechanically unsound, but it certainly works well for a lot of Finnish goalies, and there may be a shooter-response component that can't be underestimated. Its also wrong to say that moving the glove down is faster than moving it up because of gravity, which is almost a null force in this situation; the human arm is much, much faster moving up than down, as one commentator on his piece observes.

It's hard to say, but it looks like Miker's blocker position is also good: it looks as though the blocker is far enough ahead of his pad that the sidewall won't catch on the side of his pad if he moves his stick to his glove-side (ie. 'blocker-lock'), which is one of the major potential issues with keeping the elbows against the ribs as per Allaire & Ian Clark.

[gxc999 7]

I rather like Miker's new stance. At the very least, he looks a lot more settled and comfortable.

There really are two schools of thought on glove position. I personally prefer the 'active hands' position, with the gloves held well out in front of the body and the pocket of the glove aiming slightly downward at the puck, parallel to the vertical angle. (Key point: pocket-up, NOT fingers-up.)

Having said that, Miker's showing a rather excellent 'handshake' glove position, with the wrist slightly extended and the glove slightly more open to the shooter than a classic Quebecois goalie like, say, Giguere or Luongo (though they have different gurus/coaches, there are striking similarities). This is the hand position that Koho/Lefebvre gloves naturally favour (excepting the P3), which is part of the reason why, when he's trying an 'active glove' position in the first shot, he ends up with his glove in a 'yo-yo' position pointing the palm down at the ice. He's got his elbows tight to his body, showing no holes, and the glove is kept relatively low to force the shooter high, with the hand ready to sweep across the body for a gut-trap or cradle.

Much as I like Ken DiOrio's writing generally, that's not usually Kiprusoff's glove position or orientation: he rarely if ever goes fingers-up in a shot-ready stance. It looks more like he's experimenting in practise with that one. The classic Kipper glove position is the 'Finnish Flip,' which has the palm held partly open to the shooter, partly across the body, but well out ahead; in anticipation of the shot, the Fin 'flips' the glove closed across his body at the wrist, opening up the top corner; the wrist then spring back to full extension during the release, taking away space and giving a little momentum. It's argued convincingly that this is biomechanically unsound, but it certainly works well for a lot of Finnish goalies, and there may be a shooter-response component that can't be underestimated. Its also wrong to say that moving the glove down is faster than moving it up because of gravity, which is almost a null force in this situation; the human arm is much, much faster moving up than down, as one commentator on his piece observes.

It's hard to say, but it looks like Miker's blocker position is also good: it looks as though the blocker is far enough ahead of his pad that the sidewall won't catch on the side of his pad if he moves his stick to his glove-side (ie. 'blocker-lock'), which is one of the major potential issues with keeping the elbows against the ribs as per Allaire & Ian Clark.

I'm not a goalie, so I won't pretend to be an expert. I think your second stance is more practical, especially for lower levels. I almost never see goals high glove side, even at C level, but low glove is a whole different story. The same is even more true blocker side, which you do a good job of filling up the mid-level blocker hole in both pictures. The more room you can take in the lower half of the net, the better. Very few shooters can pick top corner at an average beer league level anyway.

[Law Goalie 147]

Good point, gxc. What you're getting at is something that a lot of goalie coaches like to phrase as a mantra: "nothing under, nothing through." The idea is to prioritise spaces. First and foremost, you deny any shot along the ice. Second, you don't allow goals though the five-hole your arms and your body. Third, your play shots from the ice up, and from your core out. You force shooters away from the classic Shoot-Tutor dummy goalie with five holes, and give them only two rough triangles from the toe of your pads in the butterfly to each shoulder, and then to the post. The closer it is to your body, the greater the requirement to save the shot; in the end, the shooters are only really left with bar-down outside the shoulders as a primary option.

You're also right on to say that this works against lower-calibre players, with one caveat. A capable ringer playing in a low-level game will absolutely destroy a goalie who plays a purely passive game that prioritises the low net. (I'm not saying Mike does - in fact, I'm pretty damn sure he's a very active athletic guy in the net - but speaking in the hypothetical.) The problem is that a ringer won't be pressured: he'll have all the time and space in the world to analyse the goalie, pick his spot, and hit it.

Against competition consistently at your level (eg. an NHL goalie in an NHL game), prioritising the low net works extremely well until a shooter has time and space. At that point, you have to be an almost entirely anticipatory goalie: read and react, and work outside the system. Robotic goaltending works beautifully right up to the point where it fails spectacularly against an over-competitive shooter with time and space.

The most painful illustration of this is in goalie coaching. When a coach sees a goalie figure out a drill and master it as a scenario, he starts to tell the shooters to break the scenario: to use ice or angles previously outlawed, to stop pretending there's backside pressure, etc. Some goalies will figure the evolution of the drill and go with it; some will just stick to the system and get absolutely lit up.

[woody31 1]

Law, you seem to know everything about anything that has to do with being a goalie, and I noticed you seem to be able to name different stances, so I was wondering what you would classify mine as?

[Law Goalie 147]

Haha-- seem to know is the right way to put it, woody! I have the very convenient ability to sound authoritative on subjects of which I have only a preliminary grasp. It's one of the unfortunate side-effects of over-researching everything. I swear I'm not an expert - I just learn from them.

If you want a really thorough analysis of your stance, I can PM you with a couple of professional goalie coaches who do this kind of thing gratis on the internet (that is, if you haven't already found them).

The picture you've posted is not, unfortunately, a great one from which to analyse your stance. Part of the problem is that you're partially shifted to cover the post - not hugging the post, but shifting your stance to cover a very low-angle scoring threat. In fact, you look like you're actually in the process of leaning closer to the post. The other issue is the angle of the shot: ideally, if you can only post one picture, it should be one from as close to the puck's perspective (close to the ice, square and centred on your body) as possible.

Having said that, there are a few things I can spot in this picture. The first thing is a positive: you look balanced and relaxed in your stance, ready to skate or make a save-movement, but not overly tense. It's an appropriate stance for what appears to be a low-angle, relatively distant, and low-percentage scoring thread. Also, as per my observations about this being a slightly shifted stance, perhaps moving to a full post-hug as the puck moves below the goal-line, you've done what looks to be a really excellent job of getting the outside of your skate-boot against the post and filling the high short-side corner with your shoulder: absolutely textbook fundamentals. As long as you were going to keep moving to bring your glove-side elbow outside the post and press your hip snugly against the inside of the post, you're golden from that perspective.

It's hard to tell from the angle, but based on how you're holding the glove and the glove-side elbow (tight to the body), and the fact that it's a PS2/Revoke glove, my guess is that you play a pretty consistent Quebecois-style glove, with the thumb point up and the glove aimed more or less across the body.

The one thing that concerns me quite a bit is your stick. It's not really in a position to do anything - it's not even on the ice, in fact. From that position, you're at a disadvantage both in deflecting passes and stopping shot son goal. In particular, if the puck-carrier throws a shot along the ice anywhere from your five-hole to the bottom blocker-side corner, and you can only get your right pad on it, the rebound is going to go right back out into the slot, or even worse, out the side of the crease, leaving a wide-open net for a weakside rebound threat. You'd basically be creating an opportunity for the puck-carrier to pass the puck predictably off your pad to a guy anywhere from the low slot to below the circle.

As a rule, a goalie's stick-blade should never leave the ice between his feet when he's in his stance, or skating, or in the butterfly. The blade should (in theory) only move along the ice to intercept a puck (either in a save or a poke-check), and it should only come off the ice if you're making a blocker save close to or above the height of the pad (roughly 9" and up), transitioning to a paddle-down (which you should only do if there is ZERO chance of an immediate low shot - see the Cup-winning goal on Leighton for a bad example), or doing something relatively unorthodox, like diving stick-first to cover an open net, performing a blocker-to-glove Hasek-roll, or swatting a loose puck out of the air to put it into the corner.

So, as with any stance, some good, some room for improvement.

Thanks - nice diversion from other work. :)

One other thing... goaltending terminology (names for stances, etc.) is totally inconsistent. While some goalie coaches have general agreements about what to call things, some (namely Ian Clark and Zack Sikich) come up with somewhat outlandish ways of describing relatively simple movements. It's not a bad thing, necessarily -they're trying to introduce new terms that they feel are more precise descriptions of what they want to teach - but it can be damnably confusing.

Don't sweat what different goalies and coaches call certain moves or stances. Nobody can agree on this stuff. The basic movements are almost invariably consistent, no matter what they're called.

Conversely, the really bizarre stuff - like Joakim Strindberg's "Swedish Duck-Walk" - only has one name.

------------------

You know, I just had a thought about this thread.

A lot of other goalie forums have "Stance Analysis" threads. Maybe we can differentiate ourselves by making this a consistent "Stance Comparison" thread, where everybody posts at least two pictures. Whether they're two or more pictures of yourself, or yourself and a goalie you want to emulate, or to whom you think you're similar, it kind of a refreshing take on a very old goalie-board staple.

Great idea for a thread once again, Miker!

[woody31 1]

Found a picture in a squared stance. Yes I am well aware that my stick is not flat on the ice and that is making my shoulder drop, and I need to work on that. But anyways here is my squared up stance poised for your thoughts.

[Law Goalie 147]

Some guys would cry bloody murder for "double coverage" on your blocker - that is, that the blocker is overlapping with your pads in your stance. I'm not one of them. Because the stance is not a blocking position, but a base position for movements, spatial coverage is irrelevant. The only reason to care about double-coverage in your stance is if you care about visual coverage, ie. how you look to the shooter, and that only matters at the very low and very high levels of play.

This is apparently a pre-shot stance, so it's not surprising that you're in a deeper crouch and a wider stance: you're probably preparing to fire a hard knee-drive down into the butterfly. As a more relaxed 'basic stance' for skating, it wouldn't be ideal, but as a pre-shot stance your balance looks fine.

My real concern, as you rightly surmise, is with your stick. It's a problem. Strangely enough, I actually don't see your right shoulder dropping - your left looks lower than your right. I think there are a few other things going on.

Firstly, if you look at where the heel of your stick is resting on the ice, it's about 3-4" off-centre to the left of your five-hole. That says to me that your blocker-hand is simply too far to your left.

Second, although your blocker is clearly out in front of your pad, your stick looks a little took close to your feet - almost directly in line with your toes, in fact. This puts the stick black too upright, too close to perpendicular to the ice. That's unusual, since most goalies have the opposite problem: they ramp the stick way too far back, like a 9-iron golf club. The ideal angle for a stick is the 3-iron position, whether in the stance, butterfly, or any save movement. This requires you to have the stick a little ahead of your toes - somewhere between 4" and 8", most likely. A 3-iron stick gives you enough angle or 'loft' on the blade to ramp pucks away to the corner glass, and enough of a vertical surface to prevent pucks from skipping over the stick or ramping over you into the net. Some people claim that you can reliably ramp pucks into your gut in the butterfly with a 9-iron stick position. Those people are flat wrong. No-one has ever posted conclusive video evidence that this is a repeatable technique even in a controlled environment, nor that it is used with any success at any level; many coaches have shown the opposite.

Third, you're leaning to your left. Your nose and chin are actually in line with your left knee-block. That's not necessarily a bas thing - using a shifted stance to peek around a screen, for example, is important - but in a pre-shot stance with a direct scoring threat it's a little odd.

Fourth, and probably least important, it looks as though you're a little too deep in your crouch and bent a little too far forward at the waist. It's not a big deal, but we should be able to see a little of your pants from this angle, and it's not generally ideal to have your shoulder ahead of your knees. There are of course exceptions - Giguere plays almost folded in half at the waist - but if you're going to try that you'll have to adapt every other part of your game to suit.

I think with those four things in concert, we can explain why your stick keeps doing that.

Think of moving your 3-iron stick in an arc in front of your feet to ramp pucks off into the corner; the underside of the blade never leaves the ice.

You're definitely opening the glove to the puck on the shooter's stick more than most bona fide Quebecois goalies, but notice that the Tee of the pocket is still aiming as much across your body as out towards the puck - it's almost a perfect 45-degrees to the plane of your body, right in between the two extremes of a squared-up 'open' or 'active' glove aimed at the puck, and a 'handshake' glove position. Some would say you've found a nice compromise; others might say you have disadvantages of both and the strengths of neither. My advice would be to use it if it works, and maybe experiment with a 'handshake' position to see if it works better for you. You might find that a little more relaxed.

That's my one overall concern with this stance. Even for a pre-shot stance, it seems a bit tense. That's a very vague thing to glean from one picture, but it's my honest impression. I often say as much in studying shots of myself - I want to yell at myself to chill the hell out and enjoy the moment.

[gxc999 7]

I think this is a good thread for shooters and goalies like. Let me preface by saying I routinely played against a guy who was a really good skater at open hockey. I got to know him and he was a pro player in Europe, a center. So I saw him again two weeks later at open hockey, this time playing goalie. Turns out, he was also a pro goalie consultant. Speaking to him for a few minutes completely changed my mind on things. He was also very willing to mention that what works at one level may work at another. But one thing he mentioned that I agree never works, a lot of goalies at C level, and some at B level, are lazy stand up goalies. They don't have a pre-stance, they just have a stance that never changes and my God are they easy to score against.

I think the last stance picture we saw was close to a traditional butterfly prestance, eh lawgoalie?

[woody31 1]

So what you are syaing is to be more relaxed like in the picture below, and to have my stick at a partial angle, that makes sense. I`ll try your suggesttion on the ``hand shake`` position and see how it feels.

or like this

I'll post a picture after a few months into the season to see if it gets any different from your tips

But this is what I think you are trying to explain

Up:

Down

[Law Goalie 147]

Definitely keep us posted, woody! It's always neat (and informative) to follow these things as they develop. You'll learn as much by going through the process of posting them and looking at them objectively as you will from what we say.

Your stance looks really nice and relaxed in the first of the prior pictures, but still athletic. The glove position is closer to a 'handshake,' but still not quite there. I'm going to be posting a huge Warrior review in a few days, and I'll have some good demo shots in there re: glove position.

Your stick is still, however, doing really odd things in both pictures.

Also, look at your blocker in the second picture: the sidewall of your blocker is pressed (or locked) to the outside of your pad. That's exactly what I meant by blocker-lock: if you try to move your stick along the ice to your left (across your body), you won't be able to; you'd have to move it out and then over, and that's too slow.

I think you mainly need to work on keeping consistent blocker and stick position.

In the 'posed' off-ice shots, things with the stick and blocker look (naturally) much better. The stance picture is especially good. In the butterfly, your stick-blade is a little too far away from your pads and a little too ramped, but that's a very minor issue.

Also notice that you've opened your glove to the camera way, way more in the posted shots: the pocket is aimed right were the puck would be. Curiously, you've also moved the glove much further back than in your action shots. In the posed shots, it's sitting on your hip, which isn't a good sign; in the action shots, it's out ahead of your body. The key here is keeping the glove as far forward in your field of vision as possible. (Again, lots to come on this in my Warrior review...)

Just to be clear, I don't advocate a 'handshake' glove position - I don't think it's mechanically optimal, based on what I've read and seen - but it does work well for some goalies, and you may be one of them. Try everything; discount nothing until you've tried it and researched it.

[woody31 1]

I see what you mean with my glove, and personally I prefer having my glove upo and out, when i looked at my posed pictures, I think I look a bit uncomfortable, I can tell you that it sure felt akward, I think that i`ll stick with having my gloves up and out and keeping my stick in the proper position. Thanks for your help, and as I said before, i`ll post a picture after my next ice time ( which could be in a few weeks or a few days for all I know)

Also, I`m a big fan of the warrior product line but I bought the Reebok because it was much more affordable. I do, however know that I am planning on getting a 2010 Swagger stick for this season