Guidance for a novice goalie

[Carv 0]

Hi all,

I am looking for a little guidance. I have read many posts in the forum and the information is great.

My son has committed to playing goalie for his second year of Novice. He is new to the position. He is 8 years old. We are looking at 23" pads. I may have a great deal on some Reebok equipment from this year but if that falls through I have seen some other nice deals on some Reebok equipment from the past couple of years as well as Vaughn and Sherwood Cerberus and TPS (TheGoalieCrease). I would like to outfit him in the best bang for the buck stuff I can afford. I want him to be comfortable, safe and mobile so he can have fun, excel and make it to the NHL (kidding).

Having said all of that, is there any real difference to speak of between the Reebok Revoke, 7k, 6k, Vaughn, Sherwood, TPS, DR (seems to be lower grade)etc. in youth sizes?

Thanks in advance for the help.

[Law Goalie 147]

One major caveat with youth gear is that far too often it's designed to look like the big boys' gear to the detriment of its function as youth equipment.

I absolutely love the old Sherwood Cerberus youth/junior pads for new goalies: the C10, C8, and C5 specifically, the C6 and C2 much less so. The reasons are pretty simple: first, they're far and away the lightest pads you can get at that age; second, they're far and away the most mobile pads you can find, especially since the Jr. and Youth come in 9" widths, but also because they're unbelievably thin (in profile, that is); third, because they're very reasonably priced even at full retail.

The Cerberus pads (again, discounting the C6 and C2) are the minimalist design par excellance of goalie equipment. By comparison, Reebok pads are significantly bulkier in every sense: in measurable weight, in the boot-heavy balance of the pad, and in the overall thickness of the pad, especially from the knee up. For adults, this isn't such a big deal; for kids, who have proportionally less strength and balance, it can be very detrimental. Vaughn pads are a rough middle-ground.

To put it another way, the Reebok and Vaughn pro/adult designs don't scale all that well to the youth level; Sherwood's old designs scale much much better. All three are pretty comparable in material quality (the 7K is just a rebranding of the 6K). You're right to have singled out DR as a cut below in quality across the board. I would also look at Bauer, since their youth stuff is usually pretty good; the One55's in particular seem like a good low-profile design. That said, if you can find Sherwood C5/8/10 pads, buy them immediately.

Protection from pucks is not an issue at those ages, unless you're afraid that some wingnut of a coach is going to be blasting slapshots at him -- in which case, be more concerned for his head, heart, and groin than his shins. As long as the pad had some kind of proper knee-cradle resting on a knee-wing (which MUST be covered in synthetic leather, eg. Jenpro, or he'll stick to the ice every time he butterflies), and you buy him a pair of knee-pads, his knees will be protected from impacts to the ice in any situation. Buy the knee-pads and immediately remove any sort of thigh-board or thigh-gurd that is laced into the pads: they are the number one culprit in restricted mobility.

Though you did say you had sized your son in a 23" pad, and I assume that's correct, I do have a few bits of advice on the sizing front. The only thing that matters - at all - is where his knee sits relative to the knee-wing in both the stance and butterfly. If it's in the middle third, that's ideal; if it's in the bottom third, he'll have room to grow but probably a very little awkwardness at first; if it's in the top third, you'll risk smacking his knee on the ice and growing out of them way too soon.

Gloves are tricky. If he can't open and close the glove in the store, don't buy it; if he can't hold the gloves out in front of his body in an active stance, don't buy them. You want something he can actually catch with and wield effectively; if he can't lift his arms, there's no point. Let him try on everything and get what works, but be sure you lay out those conditions in advance, since he may well crave something that doesn't work.

As far as the core body protection goes (C/A, neck guard, pants, jock), you're looking for mobility over all else. Don't leave any part of his body unprotected, but it's much more important for him to be able to reach around his body and hug himself than to fill up more of the net with some monstrous Giguere-esque turtle-shell. Same thing for the pants and jock. He needs a little more than a bare cup down there, believe me, but he doesn't need some gigantic codpiece preventing him from skating. Likewise, goalie pants are fine, as long as they're not so stupidly over-padded on the inside of the leg that his knees are constantly forced 6" apart. He might need 1/2" of low-density foam there, nothing more.

Throat protection is a consideration. The Lexan danglers are not great (they clatter around and can restrict mobility and vision), but at the youth level, they are actually a definite improvement in safety (unlike the adult versions). The goalie-specific neck-guards are significantly more protective than the standard player ones, which are usually little more than ballistic nylon and a little flimsy foam (basically a skate-guard wrapped around the throat).

Don't bother buying him a goalie mask. The protection relative to a regular helmet and cage ranges from negligible to negative, and the visibility is usually much worse. There's no reason not to use the same helmet for both playing in net and skating out at his age and stage of play.

Don't be afraid of the used market. Kids that young usually have their parents looking after their gear, and their sweat isn't that toxic anyway. It's in the early stages of puberty that used gear becomes a very dodgy proposition from a hygiene perspective.

Good luck to you both!

[Carv 0]

Thanks for taking the time to respond Law Goalie. I really appreciate the insight.

There is an ebay store in Ontario (I am in Montreal) that is selling a couple of pairs of Cerebus 22's and a pair of 24's for $150 each. They are new. Shipping is minimal. That seems fair considering the other new stuff seems to be in the $250 range. I see some used in the area as well. We were sized as a 23" for Reebok pads. I am not sure whether we would be better off with a 22 or 24 in the Cerebus. Scott's ATK is 11.5". I believe the Cerebus comes with something called 'height adjustable wraparound knee cradle' or HAWK which might give us the flexibility to go with either size. I would like to leave room for growth obviously. Do you have any thoughts on how these may fit versus the Reeboks?

Thus far we have only tried on the Reebok gloves and they seemed stiff. Is there a brand that is generaly considered softer or easier to open/close? At this age they are not very strong.

Thanks again for the advice.

Chris.

[Law Goalie 147]

$150 is pretty good for new C5's, and the store you're looking at is a fairly reputable one for that sort of clearance gear. You might do a bit better used, but that is a decent price.

When you say your son was sized in a 23" Reebok, I'm assuming you went to a store (Rousseau's?) and had someone fit him. If you're confident that sizing accurately reflects the placement of his knee in the pad (and not just what the sales guy wanted to throw at you), and you're confident that you accurately measured his ATK at 11.5", you will definitely want the 24" pad. The 22" will almost certainly be too small.

Adjustable knee-cradles are not, unfortunately, all that effective, because moving the cradle doesn't change the position of the knee-wing. If you have a pad that's a little too big, it can help by ensuring there's a slightly more stable platform to land on; it will not make a pad that's too small fit in any way.

To be honest, I haven't seen a youth/junior glove I really liked since the TPS Bionic, and even that was on the heavy side. I'm just tired of seeing young goalies show up for coaching with a glove they can't close or handle at all. Kids do have very limited grip-strength, but like I said, many companies seem more interested in making the glove look good than making it easy to close. My only advice is to try anything you can get his hands on. If you do end up with a glove that is somewhat stiff, but better than the rest, you can help to break it in by steaming the glove (with a hand-held steamer, or just hanging it in the bathroom while you shower) then having your son open and close it as much as he can, and repeating that process often. Steam will soften the felt in the palm, melt some of the glue, and provide a little lubrication for the plastic and foam to slide around just enough. Don't use your own hands to open and close the glove; it has to break in to your son's hand inside the glove, not your hands outside it. Have him work on it while he's watching a game on TV, or just play catch with him using a puck. The more time he gets to practice his catching, the better he'll be and the more his glove will break in.

One thing I forgot to mention: it's really important to have a correctly-sized stick, and that's not easy to do. The height of the shaft means nothing, since it can be cut down; the height of the paddle is everything, which is why goalie sticks are measured in paddle-height (so a stick marked 20" has a 20" paddle). Most goalies (especially young goalies) use grossly oversized paddles, which hurts their mobility and their ability to make saves (especially with their blockers) far more than improperly sized pads. For reference, I'm 5'11", I use a relatively upright stance, and I prefer a paddle around 24.75".

He needs to try sticks with his skates on, and ideally also his pad and gloves, which will allow him to find his proper stance a little more naturally. That is the first measure of paddle height. He should be able to hold the stick comfortably with the blade flat on the ground between his feet, about 4" to 6" in front of his toes, tilted back slightly like a 3-iron golf club, with his gloves held out in front of his body, not resting on the pads or his hips.

The second measure is entirely dependent on wearing his pads, since it has to be taken in the butterfly (which is a good reference for most other save positions). Basically, he has to be able to make a smooth drop from the stance to his knees. Ideally, the position of his hands/gloves and his stick will not change between stance and an active butterfly (that is, a butterfly in which his hands are held out, not wedged against his body). When he drives his knees down, the stick should stay 4-6" ahead of the his pads, and his hands shouldn't move.

If the paddle is too short, he won't be able to maintain a comfortable stance without hunching over or slumping down. If the paddle is too long, he won't be able to butterfly properly - either the stick will slide out way too far ahead of his pads and tilt up like a ramp or a pitching-wedge, or it will push his blocker way too high, up towards his shoulder.

He'll probably go back and forth between two or three sizes several times in the store before he finds one he likes in both stance and butterfly. Generally speaking, a stick that feels 'good' in the stance will be too tall in the butterfly, and one that feels 'too short' in the stance will probably feel perfect in the butterfly. The trick is to find a happy medium.

A properly sized stick is, in fact, the basis of a proper stance. If you get the right one, your son will already be on the right track.

[LivHockey84 0]

In my opinion going with a trapper that is already used is the way to go. The pads can be new and by the prices you are saying you are getting a pretty good deal. But he has to be able to use the glove like a glove. the last thing a goalie needs to is have two blockers on his hands. I remember when i was 13(around '96) I began playing golaie and my first trapper was a Sher-wood and that thing just would not break-in and it severly effected my puck handling and rebound control.

[Law Goalie 147]

That's good advice.

Used youth/junior gloves routinely go for $20 or less on eBay, craigslist and Kijiji.ca, and you can always buy a separate blocker new if you'd prefer to keep things as clean as possible.

The inside of a glove (trap or block) can be sanitised and softened using shaving gel (NOT cream) that contains lanolin, which is a powerful moisturiser and a natural antibacterial agent that also makes things smell rather lovely.

[Carv 0]

I wanted to take a couple of minutes for an update on our progress. Over the last couple of days I have managed to pick up some gear. The Cerebus did not really pan out. There was something about them that turned my son off. They do look a little different. I was close to convincing him at one point but I want him to be excited about his stuff and I was having trouble finding something locally and matching the gloves for the Cerebus. In the end I found a pair of gently used Bauer One55's for $120 and a nicely broken in Vaughn glove and blocker set that you would swear were made to go with the pads for $50. All are white with black and silver. My son was ecstatic. I thought he was going to wear them to bed. I am just happy he can start using some decent properly fitted equipment and we saved a couple of hundred bucks on the gloves and pads alone. He has an early morning pratice tomorrow to give his new stuff a whirl.

I also picked up a used dangler, goalie throat guard and junior knee protectors for a combined $70. The thigh boards have been removed from the new pads as well. We snagged used goalie skates for $35. we are experimenting with an 18" and a 21" stick. There does not seem to be anything in between.

I would like to give the gloves the shaving gel treatment but I am a little unsure of how to go about it. I imagine you apply it somewhat sparingly. Do you rinse it out afterwards?

We still need a C/A and some pants(he is outgrowing his player pants) but I am very pleased with what we have accumulated thus far.

Thanks for all of your help and advice. I am sure I will have more questions shortly. I have booked marked a discussion about how to tie the pads up and will be using it as a reference.

Thanks again.

[Law Goalie 147]

Glad to help in whatever minor ways I can, Chris.

The Cerberus pads are very extreme; far and away the most minimalist design ever to see the light of day. They're not for everyone. The One55's are a great junior/youth pad, and I'm very pleased to hear your son's enthused with what he has and raring to go. It sounds like you get a great set of deals all around to equip your son. You will find the odd 20" junior stick around, but the sizing is very limited at that level.

The shaving gel treatment is very, very simple. You spray a little of the gel into the palm of the glove, onto the pieces that feel like synthetic leather; you can then scrub it in with a toothbrush, and it will foam up nicely. The shaving gel will simply evaporate over a couple of hours, leaving only the lanolin behind, so rinsing is actually counterproductive - shaving cream will not evaporate, which is why you can't use it. Subsequent treatments should be done with a little gel in your hand, since the toothbrush is quite rough on the synthetic leather.

If you can find a Brown youth/junior C/A, that is by far the best one on the market: a superior combination of protection and mobility. John Brown's legendary status is well deserved: his junior equipment is made to the same specifications as his NHL gear, only smaller.

Out of curiosity, which thread are you using as a reference for strapping pads?

[Carv 0]

I was refering to this thread.

http://www.modsquadhockey.com/forums/index.php?/topic/47873-my-kid-wants-to-play-goal-help-butterfly-questions/page__p__710947__hl__junior__fromsearch__1#entry710947

Are the brown junior goalie pants held in high regard as well? I see some on ebay.

[Law Goalie 147]

Brown's core body protection is of the highest calibre all around. The pants are on the heavy side, but supremely protective with good mobility. His C/A's and jocks are miles ahead of everything else.

[Carv 0]

Haven't had a chance to post in a bit. Wanted to drop by to say thank-you again. My son has had a few practies now with hist new gear and is doing very well. We were able to get the Brown pants.

I picked up a Bauer youth C/A as it seemed to offer moblity and an adequate level of protection for a Novice goalie. We attended our first weekly goalie clinic the other night and the gentleman running the practice suggested his C/A was a little light in the area in front of the shoulders and in the elbo joint. He pointed to how a bigger kids pads were harder in these areas and mentioned that if he were to get a puck there it could smart. I am not sure that there is a youth C/A out there that offers something with more protection than what he has. The exception might be the Reebok Pro Spec C/A but then I think this may limit his mobility. I would appreciate more input on this before I go and make a change.

[jcp2 2]

Your son can butterfly save? Props to him. My son is trying out goalie at the Mite level (he's seven) with the association's equipment that consists of tiny Vaughn legacy pads without a thigh board or knee wing, a Vaughn C/A that only reaches 3/4 down his belly, and an old Vaughn blocker and trapper, with the trapper being largely a pancake with a facsimile of a pocket. I tried catching with it and it doesn't. Anyway, aside from being nervous and possibly embarrassed in the beginning, he's having fun. The moves he has is drop to the knees with feet behind, whack stick with stick, and his favorite, diving at the puck in a sliding motion that looks like a two pad stack and knocking the puck away and the other player over. I only wish I were as aggressive as he is when I play, but then Mites are small and some of the grown-ups are really big.

[LivHockey84 0]

I hope he enjoys the equipment!

[rocknodster 0]

Good thread, my 6yo daughter is expressing serious interest in being a goalie - volunteering every period in novices, and borrowed another kids Vaughn gear the other week and played a whole game. She's having fun, but we all still have a couple of years before she goes up an needs to make a commitment to playing goalie. Anyone have any thoughts on the Bauer Prodigy gear?

When we buy it will be from Aus, or on holidays overseas - so it will probably be new gear. Until then I will keep researching...

[EvilPepe 24]

The Prodigy line is not bad, but for a marginal amount more you could do the Warrior Ritual youth line which I think is decent step up in quality.

[fatwabbit 93]

Good thread, my 6yo daughter is expressing serious interest in being a goalie - volunteering every period in novices, and borrowed another kids Vaughn gear the other week and played a whole game. She's having fun, but we all still have a couple of years before she goes up an needs to make a commitment to playing goalie. Anyone have any thoughts on the Bauer Prodigy gear?

When we buy it will be from Aus, or on holidays overseas - so it will probably be new gear. Until then I will keep researching...

Keep researching, and dont buy online unless you really know what you (she) wants and what fits her best. Am based in Brisbane myself, and over the years have spent a significant amount of time buying skates that never fit properly.

[andysly 1]

The Prodigy line is not bad, but for a marginal amount more you could do the Warrior Ritual youth line which I think is decent step up in quality.

My son is 7 and he wants to start playing hockey this Fall. Of course, he wants to be a goalie because he loves his idol Henrik Lundqvist. We were looking at the Warriors you mentioned the other day in the shop. But, of course, he NEEDS to have Bauer equipment since that's what Hank wears!!!

[rocknodster 0]

Cheers guys, I'll keep doing my research - some of the Vaughn gear looks good too.

[leafs1967 2]

I can second the jr ritual setup. I've just picked up a set for my 8 yr old son. The strapping options on the pads are great and he has no problem closing the glove. Very happy with my choice in gear for him.