Earthquake in Japan, Tsunamis in HI/CA/OR

[ndlancer95 0]

Just watched the news, a third reactor has lost it's cooling mechanism, and will either melt down or be controlled within 12 hours. Really praying that it's the second.

[RiSeOnFiRe 0]

Just watched the news, a third reactor has lost it's cooling mechanism, and will either melt down or be controlled within 12 hours. Really praying that it's the second.

And apparently the fuel rods are now exposed at reactor #2. Meltdown is a possibility and could damage the reactor vessel causing a radioactive leak.

Wow this is such bad news. There is a small storm crossing Japan soon and the surface winds blow west back over the island. If that reactor vessel is cracked half of that island could be affected.

[ndlancer95 0]

And apparently the fuel rods are now exposed at reactor #2. Meltdown is a possibility and could damage the reactor vessel causing a radioactive leak.

Wow this is such bad news. There is a small storm crossing Japan soon and the surface winds blow west back over the island. If that reactor vessel is cracked half of that island could be affected.

so basically if the reactor vessel does leak, the radiation will be carried by the wind of the storm to the entire island of japan? this is bad.

[RiSeOnFiRe 0]

so basically if the reactor vessel does leak, the radiation will be carried by the wind of the storm to the entire island of japan? this is bad.

I can't say definitively that the whole island could be affected because those surface winds could change or be light enough to allow the radiation to enter the upper atmosphere where the predominant winds blow east off-shore. Bottom line is the worst part of this disaster is still possibly looming in the immediate future. The fact that they have not flooded all these reactors with sea-water by now is mind boggling. I don't think anyone in Japan would care about the permanent loss of 3 to 4 reactors. Sure, they get over a third of their energy from these types of plants, but now is not the time to try and preserve them. Flood the reactors, cool the cores, and clean up.

Also, the White House just has a quick presser about the state of our nuclear plants and their safety. The suit was asked how our plants would hold up against a quake of 8.9-9.0 (if you don't know anything about the ranking system i suggest you look it up. 8.9 to 9.0 is a HUGE difference) and he babbled about how we have strong safety measures. What he really knows but didn't say is that our plants would be much more likely to fail and/or collapse. Japan has some serious building regulations with regards to EQs. Even though Cali has them quite often, i doubt our plants would fair any better.

[ndlancer95 0]

Figures I'm learning aboutthe richter scale in math. If I'm correct, each number is 10 times stronger? So if 1 is 1, then a difference from 8 to 9 is like 10 million/100million

[RadioGaGa 162]

There is a video floating (no pun intended) on Facebook right now from a guy who is right at the waters edge...it goes from the first bit of water trickling into a street, to wiping away full buildings in less than 7:00. The guy has higher ground, so he basically stands there recording, looking right it all happen.

You don't want to sit and watch it but at the same time...you are absolutely awe struck by the power and force of nature.

[Axxion89 32]

I can't say definitively that the whole island could be affected because those surface winds could change or be light enough to allow the radiation to enter the upper atmosphere where the predominant winds blow east off-shore. Bottom line is the worst part of this disaster is still possibly looming in the immediate future. The fact that they have not flooded all these reactors with sea-water by now is mind boggling. I don't think anyone in Japan would care about the permanent loss of 3 to 4 reactors. Sure, they get over a third of their energy from these types of plants, but now is not the time to try and preserve them. Flood the reactors, cool the cores, and clean up.

Also, the White House just has a quick presser about the state of our nuclear plants and their safety. The suit was asked how our plants would hold up against a quake of 8.9-9.0 (if you don't know anything about the ranking system i suggest you look it up. 8.9 to 9.0 is a HUGE difference) and he babbled about how we have strong safety measures. What he really knows but didn't say is that our plants would be much more likely to fail and/or collapse. Japan has some serious building regulations with regards to EQs. Even though Cali has them quite often, i doubt our plants would fair any better.

If you flood a reactor during meltdown at over 4000 degrees with water, you will get radioactive steam. THAT is what gets blown into the atmosphere and becomes a problem. What you are suggesting would throw tons of radioactive steam into the atmosphere and STILL the core and fuel rods would melt. The nuclear engineers know exactly what they are doing and it is a risk that comes with Nuclear power.

Also, I am not worried about any nuclear plants in the US getting effected by earthquakes since the Japanese nuclear disaster was caused by the Tsunami and not the quake itself. The waves knocked out the backup generators that ran the cooling systems. The reactors are designed to handle the shocks of earthquakes and even bombs. Case in point, our nuclear sea vessels are designed to withstand blasts and the same is true of those in nuclear power plants.

[EBondo 233]

There is a video floating (no pun intended) on Facebook right now from a guy who is right at the waters edge...it goes from the first bit of water trickling into a street, to wiping away full buildings in less than 7:00. The guy has higher ground, so he basically stands there recording, looking right it all happen.

You don't want to sit and watch it but at the same time...you are absolutely awe struck by the power and force of nature.

I can't help but watch this kind of stuff, as bad as it sounds. I'm fascinated by these natural disasters. I couldn't tell you how many hours I've spent watching CNN since the earthquake on Friday. I spent a good three hours looking at galleries and pictures from after Chernobyl. It's chilling stuff, but I can't seem to get enough of it. Mother Earth is a powerful SOB.

[burrn 0]

plant basically out of control. here we come, blinky.

[RiSeOnFiRe 0]

If you flood a reactor during meltdown at over 4000 degrees with water, you will get radioactive steam. THAT is what gets blown into the atmosphere and becomes a problem. What you are suggesting would throw tons of radioactive steam into the atmosphere and STILL the core and fuel rods would melt. The nuclear engineers know exactly what they are doing and it is a risk that comes with Nuclear power.

Also, I am not worried about any nuclear plants in the US getting effected by earthquakes since the Japanese nuclear disaster was caused by the Tsunami and not the quake itself. The waves knocked out the backup generators that ran the cooling systems. The reactors are designed to handle the shocks of earthquakes and even bombs. Case in point, our nuclear sea vessels are designed to withstand blasts and the same is true of those in nuclear power plants.

Yea I guess at this point its too late to flood them seeing as some of the fuel rods are exposed. I believe there has been yet another explosion and radiation levels have jumped 4X. This could be devastating.

[EBondo 233]

plant basically out of control. here we come, blinky.

Stay safe, dude.

[Wolfpack_1986 154]

If you flood a reactor during meltdown at over 4000 degrees with water, you will get radioactive steam. THAT is what gets blown into the atmosphere and becomes a problem. What you are suggesting would throw tons of radioactive steam into the atmosphere and STILL the core and fuel rods would melt. The nuclear engineers know exactly what they are doing and it is a risk that comes with Nuclear power.

Also, I am not worried about any nuclear plants in the US getting effected by earthquakes since the Japanese nuclear disaster was caused by the Tsunami and not the quake itself. The waves knocked out the backup generators that ran the cooling systems. The reactors are designed to handle the shocks of earthquakes and even bombs. Case in point, our nuclear sea vessels are designed to withstand blasts and the same is true of those in nuclear power plants.

It's a boiling water reactor design, it's fucking SUPPOSED to produce steam.

your post is so full of derp, i dont even know where to begin.

[RiSeOnFiRe 0]

It's a boiling water reactor design, it's fucking SUPPOSED to produce steam.

your post is so full of derp, i dont even know where to begin.

We know the object of these reactors is to produce steam, but that steam is deionized water that is constantly circulated, re-used and most importantly CONTAINED. The main difference between reactors 1 and 2 compared with number 3 is that 1 and 2's reactor vessels are both intact. In the case of number 3, the fuel rods are actually partially exposed. I hadn't realized that difference when I first proposed to flood them all with Sea-water. 1 and 2 were being flooded ON THE OUTSIDE of the reaction vessel which yes produced steam, but had low radiation levels. If Japan tried that with reactor 3, the water would come into direct contact with the fuel rods producing some intense levels of radioactive steam that would continue for hours if not days.

The latest is that Japan has actually suspended work on all reactors and is now playing the waiting game. This will not end well.

[Wolfpack_1986 154]

Figures I'm learning aboutthe richter scale in math. If I'm correct, each number is 10 times stronger? So if 1 is 1, then a difference from 8 to 9 is like 10 million/100million

difference from 8 to 9 on a true log scale is only 10 fold. 8 to 10, 100 fold, 9 to 10, 10 fold. basically take the two numbers, find the difference, then make that the exponent on 10... so 9-8=1... 10^1=10

the moment magnitude scale (replaced the richter scale to be a little more precise at the high end... or soemthing like that) actually has an extra power built in... so the formula where x is the difference in magnitude is really 10^(1.5*x). so, to determine how much stronger a 9.0 is over an 8.0, a 9.0-8.0 would be 10^1.5, or roughly 32 times more powerful. take that and go impress your teacher.

I can't say definitively that the whole island could be affected because those surface winds could change or be light enough to allow the radiation to enter the upper atmosphere where the predominant winds blow east off-shore. Bottom line is the worst part of this disaster is still possibly looming in the immediate future. The fact that they have not flooded all these reactors with sea-water by now is mind boggling. I don't think anyone in Japan would care about the permanent loss of 3 to 4 reactors. Sure, they get over a third of their energy from these types of plants, but now is not the time to try and preserve them. Flood the reactors, cool the cores, and clean up.

Also, the White House just has a quick presser about the state of our nuclear plants and their safety. The suit was asked how our plants would hold up against a quake of 8.9-9.0 (if you don't know anything about the ranking system i suggest you look it up. 8.9 to 9.0 is a HUGE difference) and he babbled about how we have strong safety measures. What he really knows but didn't say is that our plants would be much more likely to fail and/or collapse. Japan has some serious building regulations with regards to EQs. Even though Cali has them quite often, i doubt our plants would fair any better.

Agreed, they need to douse the things with whatever water they can get in there. problem is, they cant power any pumps. seawater will destroy the reactor, and is last ditch... even if there's $5 billion in damage, a new reactor will cost like $20b. but i think we've reached last ditch.

8.9 to 9.0 is a 41% increase in energy released... not insignificant, but the damage difference between the two is quantitatively comparable (this is conjecture and opinion on my part).

as far as your concern for our buildings and quakes, this is true. however all reactor designs are pretty much the same. there's really only a handful that are produced. Not to mention, nuclear reactors are handled with white gloves... theres a site in georgia where they broke ground, and graded the site but are currently doing painstaking gps and seismic monitoring... they take core samples, etc. this is in georgia. also, a more modern design would not have failed like this 1970's era reactor. the damage by the tsunami to the backup generators could still happen, BUT modern designs have a few more elegant fail safes. one is that they can use some excess steam from the cooldown after the reactor gets scrammed (turned off) to generate modest amounts of power. a second, is that the millions of gallons of spare coolant water they have doesnt need pumps to cool the reactor... they can be gravity fed.

Yea I guess at this point its too late to flood them seeing as some of the fuel rods are exposed. I believe there has been yet another explosion and radiation levels have jumped 4X. This could be devastating.

distance is something to consider here. a radiation source that emits fatal levels could be read as normal maybe 4 feet further out. there's also time to consider... i think i read that the peak they had at one point was 1000 microseiverts/hr... which even at 5x, 5000 uSv/hr.... 5000 uSv/hr is equivalant to 5 mSv/hr, or .005 Sv/hr.... 1 Sv/hr is only enough to induce nausea, and is a standard yearly dose. i think 4 Sv hits the LD 50/30 (50% of the exposed will die within 30 days)... I'm pulling these figures off the top of my head... so dont quote me.

basically the situation is bad, yes. tragic yet? no. they need to cool these reactor cores (and now potentially a storage pool)... but it will be difficult for the fuel to reach criticality. worst case, the fuel melts through the reactor structure and melts through some couple hundred feet of earth. then, the issue is ground water contamination. but, i think we're a ways away from this happening.

We know the object of these reactors is to produce steam, but that steam is deionized water that is constantly circulated, re-used and most importantly CONTAINED. The main difference between reactors 1 and 2 compared with number 3 is that 1 and 2's reactor vessels are both intact. In the case of number 3, the fuel rods are actually partially exposed. I hadn't realized that difference when I first proposed to flood them all with Sea-water. 1 and 2 were being flooded ON THE OUTSIDE of the reaction vessel which yes produced steam, but had low radiation levels. If Japan tried that with reactor 3, the water would come into direct contact with the fuel rods producing some intense levels of radioactive steam that would continue for hours if not days.

The latest is that Japan has actually suspended work on all reactors and is now playing the waiting game. This will not end well.

im going to need a source regarding flooding on the outside of the reaction vessel, because this doesn't make sense to me based on reactor designs, and a couple NE's that i've been talking to. even then, i'd suspect the source is misconstruing whats going on.

See, i think what you might have missed, was that the fuel is ina zirconium alloy rod, if that shell is breached, then uranium and other fission byproducts are in contact with the water, which is BAD. Otherwise, flooding the reactor with water and boron will produce minimally radioactive steam. this then goes to a primary, then secondary containment where some of the radiation is filtered.... but the containment may need to be prematurely vented to avoid issues with pressure.

basically, you want the water to boil. it sucks far more energy out of the situation than splashing shit on it hoping it wont boil. if raw fuel is exposed, that's a bad situation we dont want to be in.

[RiSeOnFiRe 0]

im going to need a source regarding flooding on the outside of the reaction vessel, because this doesn't make sense to me based on reactor designs, and a couple NE's that i've been talking to. even then, i'd suspect the source is misconstruing whats going on.

See, i think what you might have missed, was that the fuel is ina zirconium alloy rod, if that shell is breached, then uranium and other fission byproducts are in contact with the water, which is BAD. Otherwise, flooding the reactor with water and boron will produce minimally radioactive steam. this then goes to a primary, then secondary containment where some of the radiation is filtered.... but the containment may need to be prematurely vented to avoid issues with pressure.

basically, you want the water to boil. it sucks far more energy out of the situation than splashing shit on it hoping it wont boil. if raw fuel is exposed, that's a bad situation we dont want to be in.

I hadn't realized there was a shell over he uranium which makes the situation better, but the rumors of an explosion in/near the containment chamber may have done significant damage. I would not be surprised if Japan was giving some misinformation.

Secondly, I think your underestimating the amount of damage thats been done to the reactor building.

Obviously its hard to assess the extend of the damage but I would think any hopes of filtration have passed.

Out of curiosity, what do you do for a living Puck_it? You seem pretty literate with this situation.

[Wolfpack_1986 154]

again, there's secondary containment, primary containment, and the reactor vessel.

it's difficult to tell what was damaged, i think i heard secondary containment was breached. frankly we just dont know. i wouldnt worry about the ammount of radiation being released by the steam if the zirconium casing on the rods is intact. I wouldnt want to be on site, but as far as the impact off-site, down wind, there's worse things that humans do. like fly on airplanes.

I'm not a nuclear engineer, but i've done experiments at reactors before... radiation is something i can speak on in depth; biological implications will be regurgitated second hand info, because biology sucks; and design info is coming from what i do know, or nuclear engineers i've talked to.

heres a good picture for you... see the secondary containment? thats basically whats chilling above ground. i believe the japanese buried the rest of the reactor design... but what blew up, what's damaged is all speculation in large part.

[ggreen 0]

They temporally evacuated the plant due to high radiation levels. They have also cut back on the personnel at the plant from 800 to 50. It sounds like the plant workers that are staying behind to try and stop a total reactor meltdown are being exposed to very high (potentially lethal) levels of radiation. This really is a grave situation. Despite all this information coming out, the Japan Government is still insisting that the danger to the general public is minimal. For everyone in Japans sake, I hope somehow they're right.

[burrn 0]

unit 3 is a goner.

Judging by the pictures coming out, there's little hope that the vessel is intact.

this was taken on the 15th, local time.

the pile of debris on the left is supposed to be unit 3, in the center is unit 4.

radiation on site reached levels of 1000msv/h today (that's millis, not micros).

[Wolfpack_1986 154]

i think the worst part is, nobody there knows what exactly is broken at the moment right now, either.

unit 3 is a goner.

Judging by the pictures coming out, there's little hope that the vessel is intact.

this was taken on the 15th, local time.

http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/2671/92554487.jpg

the pile of debris on the left is supposed to be unit 3, in the center is unit 4.

radiation on site reached levels of 1000msv/h today (that's millis, not micros).

thats pretty rough...

if the radiation has indeed hit 1000 mSv/h, thats why the people left, thats roughly a years dose within an hour. but like i said before, this is on site. distance is crucial. right now, theres no evidence that the citizenry are in danger, but the situation can worsen. they have a substantial evacuated buffer around the reactor though.

word is they're sending guys in from the US to take a look, we'll find out

one last bit for the night... there's so much coming out around this that its tough to gage what is accurate or not. plus i'm finding myself falling behind at times.

really the only way to evaluate this thing is going to be a post-mortem... so, evaluations will change from time to time as we learn more.

[burrn 0]

yeah, as far as the highly-radioactive materials aren't blown offsite, keep distance and you're fine.

radiation levels in Tokyo, which is roughly 200-250km south of the plant, is still around 0.1-0.2 usv/h. that's background radiation. Nothing to panic about (yet), in Tokyo at least.

however, judging from all the pics and stuff, it's very optimistic to say that the fuel rods/waste is still intact. Personally, I think there is a very high possibility that the zircalloy has already melted to some extent, and that there is really not much water left in the vessels now. not to mention that the radiation levels are so high in there, noone could work to pump water in. in which case, ...whatever, you know.

I'll say it again anyway, here we come, blinky.

[RiSeOnFiRe 0]

i think the worst part is, nobody there knows what exactly is broken at the moment right now, either.

thats pretty rough...

if the radiation has indeed hit 1000 mSv/h, thats why the people left, thats roughly a years dose within an hour. but like i said before, this is on site. distance is crucial. right now, theres no evidence that the citizenry are in danger, but the situation can worsen. they have a substantial evacuated buffer around the reactor though.

word is they're sending guys in from the US to take a look, we'll find out

one last bit for the night... there's so much coming out around this that its tough to gage what is accurate or not. plus i'm finding myself falling behind at times.

really the only way to evaluate this thing is going to be a post-mortem... so, evaluations will change from time to time as we learn more.

This. There is so much confusion and misinformation out there right now and the stories keep changing.

[elevation 1]

Is this America? Can you believe sick sh** like this:

or read this!!!

http://img863.imageshack.us/i/derpl.jpg/

Disgusting!

God bless Japan!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mfyCI82lWM&feature=related

[Axxion89 32]

It's a boiling water reactor design, it's fucking SUPPOSED to produce steam.

your post is so full of derp, i dont even know where to begin.

on reactor designs, and a couple NE's that i've been talking to. even then, i'd suspect the source is misconstruing whats going on.

See, i think what you might have missed, was that the fuel is ina zirconium alloy rod, if that shell is breached, then uranium and other fission byproducts are in contact with the water, which is BAD. Otherwise, flooding the reactor with water and boron will produce minimally radioactive steam. this then goes to a primary, then secondary containment where some of the radiation is filtered.... but the containment may need to be prematurely vented to avoid issues with pressure.

basically, you want the water to boil. it sucks far more energy out of the situation than splashing shit on it hoping it wont boil. if raw fuel is exposed, that's a bad situation we dont want to be in.

If you flood a reactor during meltdown at over 4000 degrees with water, you will get radioactive steam. THAT is what gets blown into the atmosphere and becomes a problem. What you are suggesting would throw tons of radioactive steam into the atmosphere and STILL the core and fuel rods would melt. The nuclear engineers know exactly what they are doing and it is a risk that comes with Nuclear power.

Yes it is supposed to produce steam but its controlled steam. And the steam is created by using purified fresh water fed through a system not seawater dumped on top of the core. Since you seem to be a nuclear physicist you must definitely know that steam produces preesure and I am sure a man of your intellect know what happens when you increase pressure when it has NOWHERE TO GO!

I highlighted the areas that you point out that I basically stated that you called being "full of derp" which is basically what you said. Good job...

[Wolfpack_1986 154]

Except you're awfully naive to the fact that raw venting radioactive steam, is likely the better alternative to going china syndrome and contaminating ground water with fissile material and fission byproducts.

You implicated that dumping sea water would not stop a melt down... the reactor was scrammed, the fuel is subcritical, and will not start a reaction spontaneously (unless there's some severe melting and a sufficient geometry is obtained). But that is improbable, and can be stopped by using neutron poisons. Any steam would remove heat and cool the core to manageable levels...

[Axxion89 32]

Except you're awfully naive to the fact that raw venting radioactive steam, is likely the better alternative to going china syndrome and contaminating ground water with fissile material and fission byproducts.

You implicated that dumping sea water would not stop a melt down... the reactor was scrammed, the fuel is subcritical, and will not start a reaction spontaneously (unless there's some severe melting and a sufficient geometry is obtained). But that is improbable, and can be stopped by using neutron poisons. Any steam would remove heat and cool the core to manageable levels...

Your basing your logic on a number of assumptions. Your first assumption is that there is groundwater underneath the reactor. From all new reports about the plant, it is built upon solid bedrock and until I can find further information, there has been no mention that a meltdown would result in molten radioactive material reaching groundwater as feared in 3 mile island.

Perhaps I did not explain my point about the dumping of seawater fully which is my fault. Yes dumping seawater is better than leaving the core to melt. But they are fighting a losing battle where the water is just evaporating faster than it can be replaced and that steam is building up pressures. The super heat is actually separating the hydrogen from the oxygen in the steam creating the hydrogen gas which is causing the explosions (This phenomenon has a few names, such as the decomposition of water of super heated electrolysis). So while the water being dumped is cooling the reactor, it is also creating hydrogen gas and high pressures making the area unsafe.

Overall, there isn't much that can be done at this point except to manage the situation as to limit he radiation leaks until the core temperatures naturally begin to cool in a few weeks due to decay.