Help the Newbie

[interpathway 9]

Best thread I've read through in quite some time.

[Gwyren 0]

<thumbs up>

It looks really good. Great job and a good read.

[TheWay 0]

I just noticed how in the final pictures my pants are clearly visible between the knee pad and pants. I think I might stitch the thigh wraps onto the pants, will that cause further problems?

Next things on my modification list are the patches on the medial edge of the pads and attaching the thigh guards to my chest.

Would some additional padding under the floating shoulder guards be of any help to my C/A pad?

Also forgot to mention that in the photos I am without my neck guard (the fabric, not lexan one), a piece of equipment I thought would be important given the lack of neck coverage from the CA protector.

[TheWay 0]

Alright, it's time to wrap this topic.

I'm going to go through the equipment and list the modifications I've don with pictures.

PADS

This is where most of my mods have happened since I last posted. One of the first things I did was to cover the cordura knee wings. I've replaced these with a Jenpro and vinyl bag that I then sewed into place.

I covered the weak seams with some rough patches. This is the repair I feel is the ugliest and most likely to fail, it will probably be replaced by a latrger patch if I think that it isn't working.

Contrary to what was suggested I reattached the thigh boards. I found that when testing the lack of a laced in knee pad was opening up large holes between my pants and the knee pads. I don't have the ability to buy lace in knee pads right now so I used the thigh boards with an extra tight wrap of the strap on the thigh board and a modified lacing style that you can see in the photo.

The last pad mod was in relation to another post I did about a faulty knee-lock strap. I replaced this with the same material from Tuxedo Source for Sports who were gracious enough to sell me a length of the stuff. Only problem was that it was 1” wide rather than 2”, so I improvised.

C/A & Pants

The only mod here is the addition of a vinyl strap to the bottom of the C/A to allow for me to tie it into the pants. Do newer models have this feature typically?

GLOVE

You've seen it earlier in the post.

STICK

This is the cheap RBK stick I picked up. It's 25” and says Turco on it (whatever that means). I taped the section that my hand will rest on above the paddle as well as the blade and the tip of the stick. Is there anything special anyone else does with their stick?

EVERYTHING ELSE

No mods here, I just attached the Lexan neck guard to the helmet.

[Axxion89 32]

Everything looks good, what kind of mask is that? It might be the angle of the picture but the cage looks too big for it?

[Law Goalie 147]

It's the angle, trust me: I know that mask well. It's a 3rd generation NXI Phantom, and for whatever reason, the corners on the cages always look high set.

One suggestion, and I don't know why I've never seen this on other pads, but you could try lacing the thigh-boards into the knee-wing or the knee-block, rather than the back of the pads. The only time they're ever going to be useful as protection is in the butterfly, so why not get the orientation perfect there? It may take some finessing, but it could work well.

[TheWay 0]

Actually the only time the boards will be useful is when I'm in a really narrow butterfly, when the pads are butterflied in front of my legs the pants cover the gap nicely.

I actually tested a number of lengths of rope for the thigh board and found that the one pictured is best. You'll notice that in the picture there is still slack in the lower line, it hits it's maximum tension when the pad is at vertical since anything more has the pad over-rotating.

[TheWay 0]

Alright guys, I took the pads out on the ice.

It got nice and cold here in Calgary this week and so we set to getting the rink in. Three floods later it's skate-able (but not playable).

My initial thoughts were about the skates as I went without pads initially. I love the GRAFs, they are infinitely more comfortable than my player skates and function very well in every regard.

Following that I put the pads on and had a similarly positive experience. 45 minutes later I had only two things that didn't work as I had envisioned.

First, the bottom strap on the pads was positioned terribly. Currently the buckle is on the lateral side of my skate which makes it terribly difficult to access. My question is, since this strap runs straight through the boot of the pad is it easier to replace?

Second, the toe bridge utterly failed for me. I did up the right toe bridge only in a way that I thought would work. The left pad kept overrotating because of the lack of a toe bridge (which I fixed) and the laces on the right toe bridge got caught at some point and were sliced right off. What do the goalies of MSH do with their toe bridges to make them work?

All in all it was a great experience and I can't wait to have the ice playable enough to get full gear working (read: some shooters on the ice).

[Axxion89 32]

Alright guys, I took the pads out on the ice.

It got nice and cold here in Calgary this week and so we set to getting the rink in. Three floods later it's skate-able (but not playable).

My initial thoughts were about the skates as I went without pads initially. I love the GRAFs, they are infinitely more comfortable than my player skates and function very well in every regard.

Following that I put the pads on and had a similarly positive experience. 45 minutes later I had only two things that didn't work as I had envisioned.

First, the bottom strap on the pads was positioned terribly. Currently the buckle is on the lateral side of my skate which makes it terribly difficult to access. My question is, since this strap runs straight through the boot of the pad is it easier to replace?

Second, the toe bridge utterly failed for me. I did up the right toe bridge only in a way that I thought would work. The left pad kept overrotating because of the lack of a toe bridge (which I fixed) and the laces on the right toe bridge got caught at some point and were sliced right off. What do the goalies of MSH do with their toe bridges to make them work?

All in all it was a great experience and I can't wait to have the ice playable enough to get full gear working (read: some shooters on the ice).

In regards to the toe ties, I had the same problem where the toe ties got sliced by my skate. Best thing to do is eliminate the slack. For me, I leave about an inch of slack at most 2 inches in order to avoid that. Another method is to tie knots in the ties until theres about an inch worth so its faster to measure out. Remember to zig zag the ties between the cowling and up and you should be good. Another more informed goalie (cough Law Goalie cough) can comment on the buckle and also give added advice about the toe bridge.

[jcp2 2]

I've also seen people wrap tape around the toe ties, use paracord or another elastic cord for toe ties, or even go without a toe tie at all. If you try the latter, you'll need some sort of elastic device at the knee level to spring the pad back to center when standing up. A tighter knee lock strap, an elastic knee strap instead of a leather or nylon strap, or some sort of elastic between the knee cradle and knee pad (a la Revoke knee pads) have all done the trick for me in various forms. Going without a toe tie also speeds up the dressing process.

[jconc1941 0]

not a bad set up for gear!

[Law Goalie 147]

Thanks for bumping this thread, jconc; I lost track of it along with everything else except work.

In regards to the toe ties, I had the same problem where the toe ties got sliced by my skate. Best thing to do is eliminate the slack. For me, I leave about an inch of slack at most 2 inches in order to avoid that. Another method is to tie knots in the ties until theres about an inch worth so its faster to measure out. Remember to zig zag the ties between the cowling and up and you should be good. Another more informed goalie (cough Law Goalie cough) can comment on the buckle and also give added advice about the toe bridge.

I've also seen people wrap tape around the toe ties, use paracord or another elastic cord for toe ties, or even go without a toe tie at all. If you try the latter, you'll need some sort of elastic device at the knee level to spring the pad back to center when standing up. A tighter knee lock strap, an elastic knee strap instead of a leather or nylon strap, or some sort of elastic between the knee cradle and knee pad (a la Revoke knee pads) have all done the trick for me in various forms. Going without a toe tie also speeds up the dressing process.

The toe-to-skate connection is definitely the trickiest thing to get nailed down (note: please do not use nails).

When tying any toe-tie, you need to pass through the cowling at least twice: both laces crossing through the front hole and again through the middle, then tying on top of the foot. If you want a totally secure hold, or have extra slack in the lace to use up, you can cross again through the rear hole of the cowling. I advise a *minimum* of two inches of knots between the toe of the pad and the toe of the skate, and usually three inches: unless you're unbelievably flexible, anything less than that will put horrendous strain on your MCL in even the most basic butterfly movements.

I think the best overall solution remains sliding toe-bridges. They're basically foolproof - anyone who can tie a skatelace as per the above can use them - and they allow the foot a great deal of medial mobility behind the pad while still keeping the pas at a consistent height on the skate. Basically, they have all the advantages and none of the disadvantages of simple knotted toe-ties. Here's a picture of one from Pete Smith's 6000 series, now updated as the Warrior Ritual, thankfully minus the infant reflux brown:

Toe-buckles are the traditional method, but they actually function rather like a sliding toe-bridge when done somewhat loosely. You don't get quite as much mobility or as much control, but they're usable.

I've had great success with elastic toe-ties (aka 3mm 'shock cord' from MEC/REI) but they're much more difficult to set up properly. They may seem to be working fine for ages, and then if the elasticity starts to go a little, you may find yourself chopping both cords in half in one skate. On top of that, you can't just tie them; you need to use a plastic cord-lock (trademark Cord-Loc) to secure them, which is one more little fiddly piece to break, or fall out of your bag, or wear out (they're just little plastic or metal spring clamps in a tube, really). Even under ideal conditions, the elastics can sometimes slip right over the toe of the cowling and end up under your blades. Elastic toe-ties are great, but they're very high-maintenance.

Going without toe-ties, as jcp said, is a viable option. Not only does it greatly speed up dressing and undressing time - toe-ties are by far the most laborious process involved - but it also more or less completely eliminates the risks of injury associated with butterfly play, since your foot will keep rotating behind the pad as far as it wants to. I've you've ever suffered a significant knee injury, or are worried about it, get rid of your toe-ties and live with the drawbacks. Having said that, I've never seen a single high-level goalie who doesn't use some sort of connection between the toe of the skate and the toe of the pad -- the toe and the knee are quite simply the two major connection and control points on a modern pad (the thigh-strap and the boot/ankle straps are a distant second tier), and doing without one of them sacrifices performance. (If I ever hurt my knees, my toe-ties will vanish; until then, I'm keeping the finicky elastics.) Also as per jcp's post, without toe-ties, the knee becomes the dominant control point on the pad: tighter elastic knee-locks, a connected knee-pad, etc. all work well, though you can get by with a properly placed and relatively tight knee-strap as long as you're *very* forceful about snapping your knees up coming out of the butterfly: with a crisp enough movement, you can throw the pad consistently back into place, but it's a technical skill that needs time to develop.

[TheWay 0]

Well I'm glad this topic is back up and running now.

I've taken the pads out twice since I last posted and have butchered at least four ties since.

The first time was at a charity hockey game for a jr. High school I substitute at regularily. Prior to the game I tried replacing the boot straps on the pads but failed miserably and then ran out of time leaving me with one pad not strapped to my boot at all. That same skate was the one that, unsurprisingly, got the toe tie cut.

Long story short we won the game 12-8 with 5 of their goals coming on a 'blitzkreig' of breakaways caused by bad line changing in the second. All of the equipment worked very well and I was quite happy with it.

Second time out was at the local outdoor rink where some boys ran some breakaways and ripped some slappers into me. Prior to this I fixed the toe ties and boot straps and reinforced the chest guard with one of the thigh boards.

On that note, I did remove the KOHO thigh boards from the pads because they did, as Lawgoalie guessed, get caught in my pants. I replaced them with a similarly laced CCM thigh guard (the triangular one) to add some thigh protection because I don't trust the kneepads and don't have the money to but proper ones.

Back to the second time out. All of the equipment worked well and was good on protection. I took one slapper off the corner of my mask from 50' and didn't feel it. The only shot that stung was a direct hit to the thumb of the glove and one that grazed my calf while in the butterfly.

I'm going to try some truck grade shock cord on the toe bridges. The plan is to remove the toe panel, tie up the pads and then reef the hell out of some shock cord and tie it into each grommete.

I think it's worth a try.

[Law Goalie 147]

Yeah, those knee-pads (useful as they are) are not all that bulletproof. If you ever get to see shots of Marty Biron in the dressing room, he's wearing a pair, but they've had two or three additional pieces from other knee-pads added on top by the trainer. Then again, the only knee-pads I ever really trusted were Brown's, which run well over $100, and which I *still* just had to beef up with parts from some Itech pro knee-pads. Keep your eyes peeled on Kijiji locally; knee-pads come up quite regularly, especially the RBK/Itech pro design with the round plastic cap at the knee, in the $10-$20 range, and even if they don't fit you (based on your physique, it's very doubtful) you can easily chop them up and add them to the Bauer's.

Possibly stupid question: how are the toe-ties currently attached? I checked back, and I can't find a shot of the boot-channel or toe on your pad. There should be two parts being held to the pad by the two toe-bolts: the toe-plate (the leather-covered plastic cap over the open toe) and the toe-bridge, which should be a piece of heavy leather folded double with two holes in the middle for the toe-ties. It almost sounds from what you have planned that you're going to lace the shock-cord through the body of the pad itself, which shouldn't be necessary.

If you pads don't have a toe-bridge, there's a quick, dirty and cheap way to make an effective one. Measure between the bolt-holes on the toe-plate, from centre to centre: it should be around 3" but do check. Next, grab a spare strap, fold it over, and try to match up the holes in the strap with that measurement, and then with the toe-plate holes themselves. Then all you need to do is drill or punch the corresponding holes in the strap wide enough to accommodate the toe-bolts (clamp the straps if possible, they really grip the bit), and then very slightly widen the holes through which you'll be running the toe-ties; you can even chose holes that are closer to the medial (inside) edge of the pad to make your own offset toe-bridge. Finally, bolt your new toe-bridge between the pad and the toe-plate; you may need slightly longer bolts.

You can also do the above with a piece of suitably stiff plastic, provided you file down the edges of the holes you drill for the toe-ties with a rat-tail file. This is somewhat quicker, actually, since plastic's easier to drill, but if you've got extra straps lying around, that lasts much better. You *can* also just drill two holes in each toe-plate and run the toe-ties through them, but I don't especially like this method: first, it exposes the lace to all kinds of abuse from pucks, sticks, skates, etc., and second, it will eventually warp and break the toe-plate. If you use another piece of plain plastic behind the plate, it's much easier to replace and the lace remains protected.

One other thing: I've not sure what the elasticity of truck-grade shock cord is, but the 3mm stuff from MEC (mine is white with blue tracers) is *very* stretchy. If I hang my pads upside down by the elastic ties, they stretch the elastic most of the way to their limits, and if I 'bounce' the pads up and down a little bit, the cords' elasticity bottoms out. In brief, it's very deformable stuff, and that's what you want. I also have a bunch of the 4mm MEC shock-cord in black, and it's way, way too strong to use for toe-ties.

Great to hear you're enjoying the ice in the cage, especially outdoors -- I envy you that. The weather here in Hogtown has not been kind to pond hockey enthusiasts.

[TheWay 0]

The weather here is pleasant for now, next week we are expecting at least one day with a high in the mid -20s.

The toe assembly is a double leather toe pad bolted around the front of the pad with two small shoelace grommetes bolted through the lower layer.

I replaced the laces on the bridge and I think I"ve fiddled it into something that works with skate laces. Next order of business is fixing up the left pad's upper straps and knee lock which are both more-or-less toast. The top two straps are torn out of their moorings (one was off before I got the pads) and the stitching on the custom knee lack strap is coming undone. I think I'm going to attach the strap to the ridge that the thigh boards were formerly attached to as the medial knee block has a slot to make the strap change direction.

The knee pads have been good, like I say I've only taken one puck near there and that was before I was getting my legs into a good butterfly, with a refined technique that minor gap is not showing anymore on anything coming in hard.

Other than that all is well, tonight we had five on five at the rink with two goalies, awesome times.

Funniest moment of the evening, I stop a wraparound on the right of the net before the guy over there picks up the rebound and launches it to his guy in the slot to the left of me. I dive across the crease and totally snag the thing, but didn't realize I had it in the mitt, it felt like it deflected up. So after firing a new puck into play I look in the mesh and holy hell there is my best save of the night sitting there.

[jcp2 2]

Having said that, I've never seen a single high-level goalie who doesn't use some sort of connection between the toe of the skate and the toe of the pad -- the toe and the knee are quite simply the two major connection and control points on a modern pad (the thigh-strap and the boot/ankle straps are a distant second tier), and doing without one of them sacrifices performance.

The key adjective is "high-level." I'm somewhere closer to the bottom.

[Law Goalie 147]

Exactly, and very much worth drawing attention: it's about the individual's decision to balance performance (control of the pad) and injury prevention, being knowledgeable about their own risks and level of reward.

The only reason I mentioned high-level goalies was to illustrate that there is in fact *some* trade-off of pad control for that injury prevention.

By no means was I suggesting that someone who doesn't use toe-ties is a poor goalie. In fact, I'd say rather the converse: that goalies who aren't being paid millions (or at least many tens of thousands) above an unbelievably high standard of medical coverage and who play with toe-ties of any kind after knee injuries are out of their minds. It's their choice, naturally, but I still think it's utterly nuts.

If you wear no toe-ties, you're at substantially reduced risk of ligament injury. If you wear your toe-ties tight with static cord against the toe of a stiff modern pad, with minimal lateral flex through the shin and boot and a relatively square toe, you're at a very great risk of injury. *Anything* you can do to get away from that maximal risk, whether it's tying a few inches of knots, investing in sliding toe-bridges, or playing with elastic cord, is well worth doing.

Other than that all is well, tonight we had five on five at the rink with two goalies, awesome times.

Funniest moment of the evening, I stop a wraparound on the right of the net before the guy over there picks up the rebound and launches it to his guy in the slot to the left of me. I dive across the crease and totally snag the thing, but didn't realize I had it in the mitt, it felt like it deflected up. So after firing a new puck into play I look in the mesh and holy hell there is my best save of the night sitting there.

That's what it's all about: the boys, the atmosphere, and the save nobody - not even you - can believe.

[woody31 1]

I advise a *minimum* of two inches of knots between the toe of the pad and the toe of the skate, and usually three inches: unless you're unbelievably flexible, anything less than that will put horrendous strain on your MCL in even the most basic butterfly movements.

Better late than never to read through this thread but this small section might save my knees. I only tie a small knot which might amount to no more than 3/4's of an inch at most, and on a day after a hard fought game or a tough workout in practice my knees, or more specifically my MCL area kills me at different points of the day, especially while travelling down stairs, so this my save me from this discomfort

[Law Goalie 147]

It almost certainly will help. When I was taking about a tight toe connection being a risk factor for injury with modern pads, I meant both sudden catastrophic injury (a player falling on top of you in the butterfly, for example) and gradual chronic wear and tear.

[TheWay 0]

Hello again.

THe knee pad issue has been addressed.

I initially bought the ITech 3-piece wonder and was most unimpressed due to the hard knee plate's limitations. I tried them once and then went home and cut the kneecap out of them.

However, after doing this and trying to figure out how to fix it I found a pair of Brown's on kijiji for 30$.

I've compared the coverage of the two (will post pics when I find my camera cord) and find them to be very similar, the main difference being that the Browns don't interfere with the knee lock on my pads.

They also feel like they are loads more protective.

Problem solved. Anyone interested in some ITech kneeguards that are separate from their hard knee plates?

On another note, the guy who sold me the Browns was trying to sell off a glove. I'm considering buying it because the one I rebuilt is becoming almost impossible to open sufficiently.

http://calgary.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-sell-sporting-goods-exercise-hockey-Eagle-Sentry-Pro-2-Goalie-Catcher-W0QQAdIdZ350150893

Is this thing any good?

Regardless of that fact the chain link "glass" is up behind the boards at my rink and I may as well take advantage.

[Law Goalie 147]

Brown's for $30 are a great find.

I'll try to find some time to post how I hacked the top two-thirds of my Itech knees onto my Brown's: basically, I just sewed the upper corners of the Brown's along the same seam that attached the top piece to the middle piece on the Itech ones, then sewed the Itech elastics on wherever they fit. The result was even better frontal protection and the complete elimination of the one weak spot the Brown's had, on the outside (lateral) of the knee on shots from around the goal-line.

The Eagle Sentry 2 was a really nice glove... not everyone's cup of tea, but very well made. Good catching glove, as opposed to a frying pan blocking glove; I prefer TPS gloves and the 5500, but it's in that vein. $75 is an OK deal: you should be able to talk him down a bit, but it's a pro-level made-in-Canada glove.

[TheWay 0]

Good to hear about the glove. Looks like I'll get it for 65 which is entirely reasonable for my purposes.

I was thinking the same things about the Browns and Itechs. The main complaint I have with the Itechs is their interference with the knee lock on my pad, it also seems that I have to wear the Brows really high on my knee to get them high enough to prevent holes. Looking at them it wouldn't be hard at all to integrate the two by stitching binding to binding.

[Gummer12 134]

As an Eagle Fanboy.. that's a Steal for that glove. I own 3 Fusion gloves, and they're all super comfortable and very well built. One is finally starting to get a dead palm after years of use. thankfully I found another one just like it on ebay. But Definitely get it and enjoy it. The break might be a little different than what you're used to, but give it time.

[TheWay 0]

The break is definately different than the Brians but I'm pretty sure the Brians is super abnormal too.

I went out to the rink and took shots for a couple hours last night and love the glove. The mobility difference is unreal and it is leagues better at actually catching the puck.

Only issue last night is that the slack in the toe bridge was too tight and now my MCL areas are super sore.

[Law Goalie 147]

Eeek. That's definitely one to watch carefully. Tying permanent knots in the toe-ties to set them at the length you want is a good way not to forget.

Glad to hear you like the Sentry: like wex said, it's a brilliant for those who like the feel, and a terrific catching glove.