Its not just the CBA that NHL needs to FIX

[Borsch 0]

For me CBA is not even important, the important thing is to get hockey as a sport to the level where it was in the 80's and up to mid 90's. The broadband internet has really opened my eyes(I'm in my 20s:) to what hockey should, must look like when played properly. I ve watched the entire '72 summit, bunch of soviet games from the 70's-80's, "classic" penguin/blues/philly games, etc. The current state of the game where the best players in the world have trouble scoring over 40goals per season, goal per game average below 4... just the way the game looks/flows - IS WRONG. The game is much more robotic, with less and less skill on display. And the usual excuses - "less talent these days", "trap"- are not good enough. Like the saying goes - problems start at the top!, and that is exactly right in this case. Its NHL top officials major fault that they failed to see several bad tendencies developing and now ruling(ruining more like ;) ) the game.

1 all the grabbing/interference! -Mario Lemieux spoke not only his mind but "the creative hockey player's mind" about it on numerous occasions. What exactly has NHL done to tackle the problem? So little=nothing! Two on ice referees, video evidence... but with nothing was ever used to full effect. The use of arms should be banned completely for use by a defending player: shoulder, chest, hip, stick- only legal means to check a puckcarrier. NO HOOKING.

2 Late checking/"finishing a check" - how frustrating it is for a playmaker or ANYBODY to dish a pass and get hammered 2 seconds later! And that is exactly what is going on in NHL hockey today (playoff especially so).The rules state that only a player carrying a puck is open to being checked, that means that after he's got rid of the puck he should not be touched. Where are all the "give's-and-go's" which are the main, basic manuver on which the combination passing play (for which hockey was famous and loved) was based? Not in hockey they are not, not any more. You can "give", but you cannot "go" .

Soccer - "the beautifull game?" Hockey deserved the same definition sometime long ago. I hope to hell that NHL collapses and new league with brighter management, officiating, understanding of the game of hockey appears. The current bunch of indifferent bastards with Gary Bettman at the helm of them should have their monument errected with sign "please spit here!"

Rant over :)

[Eazy_b97 1]

I agree that the game had a much better flow, but the major difference I see are

A. Overall talents increased, theirs rarely an offensiv specialist, everyone plays at both ends now

B. There are no soft goals. Watch the tapes, people scored from outside bluelines. A slapshot from the boards at the blueline was a scoring oppurtunity.

C. Checking (like you mentioned). Nobody turns away from a hit, it seemed like their was a checking line which hit everybody all the time, and then the rest of the lines only hit when necessary

I LOVE the hitting aspect and would not like to see it taken out, but the clutching, grabbing, picks and holds I could definately do without. Too many guys get a little space and are then grabbed or hooked back into place. It would be huge for this to be stopped because its an everyshift occurance.

[crosskore 0]

Nice first post :)

[MDE3 0]

Borsh..you should be getting the call from Shanahan any minute....good job.

I like the hitting too, but the finishing the of a check...like was pointed out... well after the puck is released, is purely interference....but now accepted as a standard "good defensive play"

Goalie equipment..tone it down a bit and make the saves depend more on reflexes than the size of the trapper, arm pads, leg pads, and blocker. With bigger goalies and bigger pads...it is not surprising the goal counts have dropped.

"Left wing lock" the approved name for weak side interference.

Obviously..removing the clutching and grabbing requires a wholesale rewrite of the defensive coaches handbook. Now body position would be the operative word at all times defensively...."reaching out and 'clutching' someone" would be strictly for telephone users. Make skating the most exciting part of the game again.

For all the talk about new sticks and faster shots...I do not know if this is true.

Does anyone remember the skills contest from a few years back where Bobby Hull came out after the hardest shot contest, and fired a 115 mph bullet in street shoes at the age of 57, and his second shot missed the net, but broke the glass?(wooden stick I believe). Not hard to figure why he was never invited back. Make all the up and coming players work on a farm bailing hay by hand for at least two years before allowing them to make the bigs.....real strength training.

[Chadd 916]

Late checking/"finishing a check" - how frustrating it is for a playmaker or ANYBODY to dish a pass and get hammered 2 seconds later! And that is exactly what is going on in NHL hockey today (playoff especially so).The rules state that only a player carrying a puck is open to being checked, that means that after he's got rid of the puck he should not be touched.

Actually he is considered "in posession" of the puck until another player gains control of the puck and is fair game to be hit until that point. I agree with you, just quoting the rule.

Look at the old games and the third line guys barely saw much ice time and the fourth line guys would get a shift or two. Now you see teams rolling four lines every night.

Coaches preach defense at the expense of offense because it's easier to win that way.

[Borsch 0]

Thanks for all your replies guys! :D

Clearly hockey as a game (not just business;)) is not at all well, so lets get this discussion going. Just on a side note: I believe that once (IF that is possible) the GAME side of things is sorted out there'll be no probs with sorting out the business side, promoting the game, getting bigger audiences... so on.

Actually he is considered "in possession" of the puck until another player gains control of the puck and is fair game to be hit until that point. I agree with you, just quoting the rule.

Thanks for clearing that out. But, really even that rule is largely ignored: a player mkes a short pass and by the rule is not fair game after (say) 0.2 seconds but gets checked full second and more afterwards. Checking is so completely free of THINKING behind the process nowdays (as Jagr said "body checking for body checking’s sake")... Nobody of the numerous "goon" players dominating todays game bothers to check if that puck is already under control of another player, they just go and hit,hit, hit. Had referees enforced the rule consistently and with a frame of mind of protecting the creative player (ie slightly taking the side of the puck carrier), it would not have developed into a clear problem it is today.

But even regardless of that, if these goons checked legally, without using their arms and hooks, without being "all over him like a new pair of shoes"...

Oh, I dunno... People say that players are bigger and faster nowdays. But Mike Gartners speed record was nowhere near beaten in the last ten years(same for Fedorov's 2nd and 3rd place). And he (and Fedorov at the time) did not have composite soles, and all other heavily marketed gimmicks. (This also backs up MDE's post about modern sticks that do not really shoot harder then wood ones from the yesteryear)

North American mentality of "just shoot it at the net" certainly does not help, because rather then work for a high % scoring shot, players are taught to launch it from anywhere which makes the game look disjointed and kinda luck based...

I think games are run by coaches more and more, players themselves are not allowed to "just play" anymore. Players are just coaches puppets, do not have their own brains, ideas ,understanding of the game, they just do as they told: skate in such-and-such formation, dump it in, shoot it at the net ("good things might happen")...

Goalies pads definitely seem to have gone much bigger(why did the league allow that?), when I first watched the '72 series I was amazed at how "small" Tretiak looked.

NHL's expansion has diluted the talent level, there is no doubt about that (another example of Bettman's indifference for the game side of hockey)

All in all its all NHL fault. Even the defensive coaching and so on. The atmosphere and the rules of the game in the 80'sto mid90's encouraged creative, thinking pass-n-skate hockey. The atmosphere and the rules of today’s NHL suit brainless dump-n-chase, "good defence" fests.

[hip check 0]

Just a few comments:

Players are all bigger now - you have to have some amazing skill as a small player to play the game now at the NHL level. Frank Mahovolich and Phil Esposito were big players 30 years ago, average sizes today.

Skill development at lower levels is greater now, so there is less disparity between the great and the good players.

Coaches can win, therefore keeping their jobs, if they have a solid defensive emphasis. The reason for the lock, trap, whatever (it's been around since the beginning) is because you can win without having to have the most skilled players, just the most disciplined.

Goalies are no longer just 'the guys who can't skate' on the team. They have developed their skills faster than any other position has, making it harder for everyone to score. Equipment size fits in there somwhere, but that's just a small part of the equation.

The league let the clutching and grabbing creep in, and now has to work hard to clean it up. There's going to be some growing pains with it for sure, but I think if they stick to it good results will come.

[mack 44]

Looks like Shanny's work is being done for him.

[MDE3 0]

I think one of the things that was mentioned needs some expansion. (my specialty :D )

The "discipline" part of the game, and the "systems" we see, are actually a result of the N. American teams getting beaten so badly by the European teams in the 50's through the 80's ..particularily by the Russians who not only had great systems to develop individual players, but tremendous team discipline, and well coached team "systems" as well. Gradually these "systems" were incorporated into the NHL coaching hand books....to a great extent.

The old NHL game was played at a more intuitive level, where it was more art than science, which I think was one of the points Borsh was trying to make, and this "art" had more appeal, than the systems currently being so widely employed both defensively as well as offensively.. I will always remember a great quote from Larry Robinson talking about Guy Lafleur (who are these guys???) when it appeared that Lafleur had made an errant pass. Lafleuer's response was..."Well I just passed it to where he should have been" ...and Robinson said..."I couldn't really argue with the man". This was the classic Montreal Canadians in their hayday....a phenominal collection of intuitive hockey players....that drove Scottie Bowman nuts.... because he was one of the coaches trying to install some "systems" play within the Habs club.

Do not get me wrong...the Russian teams of this era were amazing to watch too, because the combination of their wonderfull skating skills along with their discipline and well practiced systems was also very artistic. Like a well choreographed ballet on skates.

The zenith of all the hockey games I have ever seen..the most entertaining and exciting game I had the pleasure to see, was the New Years battle between the Montral Canadians and the Red Army team in 1971 or 1972(either way I am close lol). It was a classic match up between the most natural "intuitive" collection of players I have ever seen..the Habs of that era, and the most disciplined and well coached team in the world. The shots on goal were 65 - 15 in favor of the Canadians...the score was 3-3. Talk about entertainment.

That's what is missing more today in the current NHL than anything else. The artistic entertainment of the sport. It seems to have given way to the financially driven "winning is the most important element". As the NHL is now finding out, the entertainment of the artistry of hockey may be more important financially than who wins or loses a specific game/season. Someone always does...but it's how they do it that counts.

[Chadd 916]

Looks like Shanny's work is being done for him.

The funny thing is the NHL has been running meetings like Shanny's for the last several years. The board of governors has been the group deciding what rules are implemented.

On a related note;

I don't get the people who complain about the changes the NHL has made over the years and then say the NHL needs more changes. I know some poeple just want things the "old way" but that isn't realistic. We could go back to rules forbidding forward passes or fining a goaltender every time he leaves his feet. Many of the NHL players who complain about the interference in the NHL are also the same guys who complain that the refs are making too many calls when it goes against their team.

[Borsch 0]

Looks like Shanny's work is being done for him.

What exactly did Shanahan say/propose to do?

MDE3:

I know what you are saying:) Systems must be present however, I'm not supporing anarchy if not what I mean :D Man to man coverage, neutral zone trap- whatever - all strategies are fine by me. (A good bunch of players in a good team will take it apart anyways - if D's dont interfere/hook/grab/check late/foul. ) As long as d's keep their hands close to thier body, sticks on the ice... chest, hip, shoulder, poke check - only legal means to defend. Also NO interference.( Maybe new penalty should be introduced: "grabbing"? And make calls on the foul play with no mercy. No "leveling up penalties". See it - call it!) This would create space on the ice which would naturally encourage players and coaches alike to play fluent pass-n-skate hockey.

[MDE3 0]

I think the thing that drives everyone nuts who loves the sport as a spectator, not necessarily as a player, is where the dump and chase results in a series of non calls (interference) from the defending team holding up the "chasing " players; followed by a scrum for several seconds along the boards; followed by a face off and possibly another scrum in the defensive circle, followed by a clear and then a chase into a neutral zone trap....zzzzzzzz.

[Chadd 916]

Yeah, but coaches love that stuff. Not a single good scoring chance against them in your scenario.

[MDE3 0]

With some exceptions...I know there are those dedicated fans who can appreciate the game being played that way, but...I also know that's why I switch stations in the middle of a game.....and I imagine I am not alone....Hence the current crisis beyond the CBA. That style of game is appealing only to a much smaller audience than the free flowing "artform" I referred to above.

[MDE3 0]

Looks like Shanny's work is being done for him.

What exactly did Shanahan say/propose to do?

MDE3:

I know what you are saying:) Systems must be present however, I'm not supporing anarchy if not what I mean :D Man to man coverage, neutral zone trap- whatever - all strategies are fine by me. (A good bunch of players in a good team will take it apart anyways - if D's dont interfere/hook/grab/check late/foul. ) As long as d's keep their hands close to thier body, sticks on the ice... chest, hip, shoulder, poke check - only legal means to defend. Also NO interference.( Maybe new penalty should be introduced: "grabbing"? And make calls on the foul play with no mercy. No "leveling up penalties". See it - call it!) This would create space on the ice which would naturally encourage players and coaches alike to play fluent pass-n-skate hockey.

The problem is that the defensive "systems" we are talking about are based on being able to interfere without being called for it.."trap", "left wing lock", "picking up your man in the defensive zone"...all are based on slowing down attackers by directly holding or hooking with the stick, arms, or hands.

Call all of the current non calls mecilessly, and you would have a third of the season with TV games running over allotted time slots (read costing the league money) from all the stoppages...but it really has to happen to open up the space and get the flow back.

[mack 44]

Borsch-

Shanny's just proposing to get a committee of various people who are involved with the game (officials, players, etc.) to go over ways to get the game back to respectability.

[KC8NIY 0]

Maybe the NHL should take a serious look at what the NCAA did this year. Before the season even began, a memorandum was issued community wide, in effect stating that all penalties that were on the books would be called.

The goal they are trying to accomplish is exactly what is discussed in this thread. Open up the game more. Get rid of the "levelling up". Essentially, take away any and all discretion by the referee.

Initially, this created almost consistant power plays throughout the game. Numerous 5-on-3 situations. It was not uncommon to see games with 30 or more penalties called. Most people hated it as first, as there was no flow to the game, and almost seemed to contradict the task at hand.

It has been 2 months now. The result: there are nowhere near as many penalties being called, because there are nowhere near as many being taken. The first 4 weeks of the season really was an adjustment period for all involved. Coaches, players, referees, fans. The game has since opened up alot more than in the past, and you really can see those who are offensively gifted perform. Defensively, it does not appear to have affected many teams (looking at GAA's and SOG's).

I truly like the product on the ice MUCH better than in past seasons. I don't see any reason why the NHL could not do the same.

[Borsch 0]

mack:

Cheers for that. I hope they get some people like Lemieux... Actually he'd be perfect! Gretzky running team Canada and Lemieux running the NHL :D

MDE3:

"Call all of the current non calls mecilessly, and you would have a third of the season with TV games running over allotted time slots (read costing the league money) from all the stoppages...but it really has to happen to open up the space and get the flow back. "

I don't think that would happen - I mean "games running over alloted time". Coaches of fouling teams will lose games on powerplay goals and would be forced to adjust. Only first five games or so will be like that. Of course NHL can go public and issue a video to each team showing exactly what they are not goona be tolerating any longer. (I wish... )

"scrum for several seconds along the boards; followed by a face off and possibly another scrum in the defensive circle, followed by a clear and then a chase into a neutral zone trap....zzzzzzzz. "

"ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ...." describes that kind of play perfectly :D And I'm not just a spectator, I play the game too (or did you mean NHL players? Nobody enjoys it anyway, I think. Apart from Chadd perhaps;) hehe)

[MDE3 0]

About the additional calls making games run over for a third of the season.....

I might have been exaggerating a bit (see the reference to what is being done this year in NCAA hockey in the post above), but that is an issue for the television contracts, because adding a lot of additional penalties to games would add significant minutes to the time slot for a game.

Why do you really think no touch icing is being introduced, and the wider lines too? Of course there is some benefit to the flow of the game, but even more benefit to reducing the minutes involved for the overall time slot...read $...by reducing the number and duration of stoppages. Thus saving the NHL money in their contracts with the Television networks.

Advertising for games is sold as timed packages..so many slots of such and such duration...obviously you need some time stoppages to air these ads. But what happens when you have more stoppages than you have paid ad slots to fill them with? What happens when a game is scheduled to take 2.5 hours and runs 3 hours? Someone has to pay for that extra air time..because some one elses ads are not being aired when they were supposed to be....see what I mean?

You can always add in television "time outs' to a game if there are not enough stoppages, but you cannot just throw more ads out there than you are being paid for, and the network time costs money. So too many stoppages increases the cost to air each game, and generates no more revenue.

[Borsch 0]

MDE3

I do see what you mean ;) But for me NHL 's got to start fixing the Game itself -whatever the cost is in the short term. They MUST!!!!!!!

[EndBoards 0]

I'll vouch for the NCAA game as well. I've been watching as many of those games as I can (mostly Minnesota and Wisconsin) and the college game is awesome - especially UM. I've watched lots of games and have only seen maybe 2 or 3 periods of zombie hockey.

The teams pass & skate way more than in the NHL. Plus, there are 4 or 5 solid open-ice hits per game. You maybe see one hits of that quality in 4 or 5 NHL games..

As far as the NHL game goes, I think the attention should be given to scoring chances, not the scores themselves...

I understand the cost and architectural issues, but the ice surface has to be enlarged. I say go to the international rink and beyond. A pair of 6'6" D-men along with a trapping wing can defend the entire 85' width of the ice. Add 15' to that, and some holes would start to develop. Add 25' and you're really cooking. I'd also add some length to all of the zones.

Since that option will never happen.. The next best thing is to widen the blue & red lines & go back to the 11' areas behind the nets.

I also think that obstruction/interference penalties should be called more. The problem is that refs don't want to blow the whistle late in a close game. They don't want to be seen as deciding the outcome with a powerplay - especially for a foul that occurs away from the puck.

So - take away the power play on obs/int calls. Just throw the offender in the box for 2 minutes with no change to manpower. On each repeat offense, the penalty time goes up by 2 minutes. It doesn't effect the immediate outcome, but it does make repeat offenders less valuable to their team.

Also, I know that this is controversial, but they've gotta go with the after-OT-shootout for regular season games. I understand all of the arguments against, and I used to agree with them, but for the sake of popularity I've swung to the pro-shootout side (as long as shootout stats for both shooters and goalies are tracked seperately from regular game stats).

Whew.. sorry for being long winded..

[MDE3 0]

MDE3

I do see what you mean ;) But for me NHL 's got to start fixing the Game itself -whatever the cost is in the short term. They MUST!!!!!!!

Actually I agree with you, but the economics I was pointing out make for a "cannot see the forest for the trees" scenario. I do not agree that the status quo can remain, the NHL will just have to bite the bullet and get it done.