Pronating and No Lace Skating

[BenBreeg 493]

I thought I might start a little journal thing to document trying to figure out my pronation issues.

Background

I have been skating since I was about 10 or so and am 45.  I played through high school and then men's league with a pretty good chunk of time spent not playing and just coaching.  I started playing again about 9 months ago.  I know that I tend to favor my left side.  When I am just standing around, that is the default foot I will put my weight on.  My right ankle always used to get issues with posterior tibialus when I would run.  My right knee tracks inward (the left doesn't) when I do something like a one-legged squat.  So for the running injuries I would try to strengthen the interior calf, do lateral band walks, lying lateral leg raises with weights, etc.  That never really solved it.

So that carries over to skating where it is harder to get on my right outside edge than any of the others and just casually standing I tend to default to my right inside edge and am pretty square on my left skate.  I have read most of the articles on the internet about pronation in skating.  I contacted a figure skating skate guy and he mentioned the MLX but said most skates now have little room for moving the holder.

So I decided to try the unlaced skating approach and see what happens.  I had been down two eyelets except when playing, then just down one.  I am on old Bauer Supreme 7000s (yeah, I need new skates badly...).

So we went skating yesterday and while I didn't take the laces out this time, the tongue was flopped pretty far out and barely touching where it wasn't out of the boot.

Observations:

-it took a while but I started to realize that even when I was on my right skate, my upper body was a little left, while when on my left skate I was more over it (defaulting to how I am when I am just standing around)

-I seem to plant my left skate and drive more through the heel, my right skate I seem to be a little forward of that spot (yes, they have been recently profiled and should be the same, so it is probably attributable to me)

-I was able to do crossovers and turns decently, backwards was a little harder because you tend to be on your toes more and the heel wants to lift out of the skate more

-Muscles around the ankle and inside of my lower leg definitely started getting sore as the session went on, and they are a little sore today

-When I played this morning laced up to one from the top, I seemed better on my right skate, more square on my edges and was able to get on the outside edge a bit more easily even after only one session

 

Will continue to see how this goes and report back periodically.

[Vet88 674]

15 hours ago, BenBreeg said:

-I seem to plant my left skate and drive more through the heel, my right skate I seem to be a little forward of that spot (yes, they have been recently profiled and should be the same, so it is probably attributable to me)

-I was able to do crossovers and turns decently, backwards was a little harder because you tend to be on your toes more and the heel wants to lift out of the skate more

-Muscles around the ankle and inside of my lower leg definitely started getting sore as the session went on, and they are a little sore today

- As the ankle folds inwards, your weight transfers slightly forward. It's not your profile, it's your body finding a different balance point when taking into account the pronation. Your weight will transfer back towards the heel as you keep training, your alignment over the blade improves and your muscles strengthen / become more coordinated..You will be able to monitor this yourself as you do inside edge drills, the right will sound a little more thin and reedy compared to the left.

- If you want a fantastic calf workout skate backwards for about 30 minutes with laces undone, it really loads the calves up. At first your heel will want to lift but as you keep practising your skating style will change and the heel lift will become much more reduced and eventually vanish. Backward crossovers are a very good way to load up the inside edge of the pronating foot and build strength. Because you are a little bit more balanced over the forefoot / mid section of the foot, the arch takes a lot more load. Any weakness there (typical of most pronators) means the ankle will fold inwards much more easily than skating forward. You have to focus really hard on keeping the ankle straight.

- Sore muscles means your body is doing what it is meant to, using your muscles to stabilise the ankle / foot instead of relying on the boot and pulling the knee into the correct alignment.

Congratulations, first steps to rebuilding your skating muscle memory. When you get to the 4th+ eyelet down then things start to get really interesting as you lose most of the boot ankle support. Keep at it. Also consider video taping your progress, you will see how it can make you a much smoother skater as your muscles start to optimise your skating style. If you want a control drill to validate how much things are changing, try one foot slaloms, if you can generate full power into both edges whilst doing 1 foot slaloms with no laces then you have nailed it. It will also allow you to track how much the right is improving compared to the left

[BenBreeg 493]

Thanks for the feedback!  One foot slaloms with no laces, that will be my goal, but it is probably aways away.  Unfortunately i will probably only be able to dedicate one day a week on this but we will see how progress goes.

As an aside, my son (turning 8 soon) is down two eyelets with no ill effects, he actually said, “now i can bend forward!”, when i went down one eyelet, so that right there was positive.  Kept him at one down for regular practice/game (adm).  Is that correct for him?  Unlace to build up, back to regular for games/practice?

[Vet88 674]

Yes, that is right. He needs to find his optimal eyelet down point for games. For practices you want to try and mix it up, start practice with eyelets dropped then at some point during the practice lace back up to game mode eg at the end when they have a mini game / scrimmage. Keep working at dropping an eyelet every few months or so, his ultimate goal is to be able to practice with laces fully undone / none. You may need to talk to his coach so they understand what you are trying to achieve because there will be a performance hit as he practices this way until his skill set improves.

[BenBreeg 493]

5 minutes ago, Vet88 said:

Yes, that is right. He needs to find his optimal eyelet down point for games. For practices you want to try and mix it up, start practice with eyelets dropped then at some point during the practice lace back up to game mode eg at the end when they have a mini game / scrimmage. Keep working at dropping an eyelet every few months or so, his ultimate goal is to be able to practice with laces fully undone / none. You may need to talk to his coach so they understand what you are trying to achieve because there will be a performance hit as he practices this way until his skill set improves.

Thanks, that makes sense.  He is in ADM and I am his coach.  Practices are uber organized by the guy who runs it.  Stations and no wasted time so we can't tweak skates between drills.  Then game days are separate.  I will have to see how that works out but the season just ended and he will just be doing free skate and some little stuff over the summer so I will have a lot of control over what we do for the next 5-6 months.  BTW, he saw the picture of Daryl Evans and thinks it's really cool, so he's into doing this.

[Vet88 674]

Practices are next level hard compared to free skate, you are having to react to the puck (when it doesn't do what you want) and other players. This means edge transitions and until he begins to gain real control over his outside ankle muscles this edge transition is hard to do "at will". It comes, it just takes time. On the plus side he is young and will get there quick, 8 is a great age for him to be doing this.

And if he wants to see someone actually training with laces undone, have him watch this: Wally Kozak knows his stuff, one of the most respected Canadian coaches out there.

 

[BenBreeg 493]

So week 2 of untied skating.  It was definitely easier just to skate, my left side was basically right on.  If I didn’t have the pronation issue on the right I would probably be able to do a lot more pretty quickly.  Getting on the right outside edge is still a challenge.  It kind of goes from on the flat and suddenly flops to the edge all of a sudden.  But one thing I noticed is that since I favor my left side, my head and upper body lead early when turning left, while when turning right I don’t think that naturally happens.  Doing Gretzky turns is actually pretty good on both sides for some reason.  One thing that helped my clockwise crossovers was actually focusing on keeping my shoulders parallel and not dipping my inside one, which I must be doing.  Didn’t get the soreness during skating either.

Backwards was ok but getting on that right outside edge was even tougher.  Couldn’t push it much because this afternoon session was filled almost entirely with really little kids.

My son on the other hand if flying.  Crossovers both was yesterday with laces two down.  Trying to get that inside foot/outside edge engaged for turns but that is a process.  Toward the end we were ready to go soon and he wanted to try 3 eyelets down.  So we did.  I told him to just take it easy and focus on staying over top of his….and he was gone before I finished my sentence! 😊  He did ok actually.  A couple wipe outs because he instantly tried to do everything he had been practicing but not bad.

I don’t know whether to keep them down as he learns new skills or to learn the skills with 1 or 2 down then reinforce them by progressively unlacing.  Thoughts?

[Vet88 674]

19 hours ago, BenBreeg said:

I don’t know whether to keep them down as he learns new skills or to learn the skills with 1 or 2 down then reinforce them by progressively unlacing.  Thoughts?

There isn't a lot of difference from 1 - 3 down, the boot is still supporting the ankle relatively well and the foot is still locked in. Given his age and the speed they learn at and that he was off and skating ok at 3 down I'd leave him there. That's where he is now beginning to hit some walls and he needs to work at these skills along with everything else that will rebuild / retune his base memory muscle control. As you drop eyelets heading towards lace free you will hit these walls all the time over the next few years, don't get discouraged about this. Just cast your mind back to what you were doing 3 or 6 months ago and realise how far you have come in that time. These walls stay there until you are lace free, going flat out and skating with control, only at that point does it start to go away. Even if it is just for your own satisfaction, I really do recommend that you take a video of him skating now and then again every 3 months or so. It gives you and him visual comparison points and these are really important in reinforcing what he is doing.

On another note, if you ever put him in inlines later on I'd be willing to bet that he will notice very little difference (other than stopping) if he skates in them laces untied. Your body finds a natural balance point when the heel isn't jammed into the pocket and it doesn't matter if you are in ice or inline boots, the transition is relatively easy.

As for your pronating foot, I know what you are going thru. I had to rebuild mine after surgery, you are having to relearn how to "walk" (ie skate) on that foot and get all the body alignment working properly. But it is worth the effort and there is, for me, almost no better feeling on the ice than when you find that deep outside edge. 2 foot slaloms are good, also skating in a tight circle (i do this with the stick and lean on the stick so it partially holds me up) and really concentrate on supinating on the outside edge, you want to go past the point of control (have your foot collapse on the ice) so you learn where the limit is and then keep pushing towards that limit.  

[BenBreeg 493]

Will keep working on it.  Tried some one-foot slaloms, but it was more of a wiggle 🙂

did you do anything with insoles or anything else to the skate or just solve it via practice?

[Vet88 674]

22 hours ago, BenBreeg said:

did you do anything with insoles or anything else to the skate or just solve it via practice?

I have always used superfeet and these stayed in when I went lace free. However recently I left them at home by mistake and had to borrow some flat insoles from a rental boot, I didn't notice that much difference. I also use powerfeet inserts and I believe these definitely help as they provide some lock for your forefoot. Other than that everything else is stock standard retail. Muscle strength and recovery has a lot to do with how well you skate on any given day. Even after all the practice I have done, yesterday I was in a 2 hour scrimmage with only 2 on the bench, today I found it really hard to keep my form correct. Tiredness has much more of an impact when lace free than laced up.

[BenBreeg 493]

Two more weeks at this point.  It would probably be much better if you could do this multiple times a week but it is what it is.  It generally takes about 20 minutes to get used to it each time I go out there.  While the right (problem side) still kind of collapses onto the outside edge as opposed to a smooth transition I can feel on the left, there are other things you figure out as you do this.  It helps you become aware of what everything but your feet/ankles are doing as you skate.  Where is your head vertically relative to your feet as you put weight on each skate?  For my, pretty sure I was more over my left skate than my right, just from years of favoring the left side as well as more counter clock-wise skating.  I think my weight is different forward to back when turning left than right.  I imagine my hips are different, etc.  So one thing is you become aware of these things, but it is something I think is going to take a long time to address.

It is harder to get a deep knee bend on my right foot, the weight still wants to move toward the front of my skate.

Another is that while I don’t have the soreness I had the first skate, there are definitely different stresses being put on the body (lower leg/ankles of course, but also the knees and hips).  So it would be something to monitor less you end up causing more problems by overdoing it (probably especially true for those of us over 40).  I tempered this by doing drill-type skating interspersed with just easy laps where I tried to just spend more time with the weight on my right skate or do one-foot glides.

Lastly, it still feels like there is benefit even at this early stage when you lace up regularly, so that is a good spot check.

[Vet88 674]

14 hours ago, BenBreeg said:

Another is that while I don’t have the soreness I had the first skate, there are definitely different stresses being put on the body (lower leg/ankles of course, but also the knees and hips). 

Yes and it helps to understand why this is happening. From the day we are born, the brain is hard wired to make our body work as efficiently as possible. Any extra energy used to do a motion is energy wasted and it can mean the difference between life and death. This is what is happening when you go lace free, your brain is now having to figure out how use muscles to skate as efficiently as possible. This also includes joint alignment and as your brain figures the muscles out it is also working out alignment issues (notwithstanding any physical defects). Over time this soreness and stress will disappear as this optimization occurs. As to overuse, I am more injury free today than I have ever been in my skating life - knees, groin, back are all good and these used to all give me issues when laced up. I'm training as hard now as I did 10 - 15 years ago and at 55+ and 15 - 20 hours a week in skates that is a good thing to say. You are never to old to learn.

I see that you are starting to find your balance points on the skate and now understanding the areas where you struggle. With practice this will change and a lot of it is organic change because of the above but it does take time, sadly there is no quick fix.