skate pitch angles

[orphan 0]

Some skate salesmen talk about the pitch or lie when comparing different skate brands. For example, they might say that one brand is set at 8 degrees and another is set at 4 degrees.

How is this angle defined? An angle requires two lines or planar surfaces to be defined. If the blade is a radius, the how can they measure an angle from it? If the sole of the boot is one of the reference lines, then what is the second one?

[JR Boucicaut 3804]

A line from the heel cup up to the tendon guard...

[orphan 0]

Ohhhh ...

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing <_<

I know these guys thought they were talking about the holder, but it's really a function of the boot design!

I was futilely trying to understand this in the context of blade profile. Now I have to think about it some more

[JR Boucicaut 3804]

Were you talking about blade pitch or boot pitch?

If you're talking blade pitch, your lines would be one 90-degree line on the back of the holder, then one going down the sole plates. It'll go downward.

[Jimmy_Wolf 0]

It's a little bit of both the angle of the boot and the radius of the runner.

Let's say you put a Graf on one foot and a Bauer on the other. Then you rock both feet at the same time (make yourself balance back and forth) you will notice a different point of contact with the floor/ice.

I think that a player can easily get used to a new boot profile, but the contact between the runners and the ice is another thing. Some players who have skated on CCM or Graf all their lives can find it very hard to switch to a TUU blade for example. The reason that the weight is more concentrated on the heels with the TUUK. But if you contour the TUUK to the radius of a Graf/CCM blade, or shim the heel part, the player will have his life much easier.

Even easier, you have a player switch skate brand, and to put his old holders/runners on his new boots will make the transition even easier.

Lok at the NHL. Many players switch skate brands, but always keep their good old TUUK blades. This way, they shorten the transition period. Many guys who used to wear Bauer, who switched to CCM, Easton... kept their TUUK on.

Joe is just an example: http://cache.gettyimages.com/comp/53133668...4D2604A015CF9DF

and after: http://cache.gettyimages.com/comp/55731002...4D2604A015CF9DF

[orphan 0]

Were you talking about blade pitch or boot pitch?

If you're talking blade pitch, your lines would be one 90-degree line on the back of the holder, then one going down the sole plates. It'll go downward.

JR

I guess I didn't know exaclty which I was asking about. I'm just trying to make sense out of several "buzz words" that seem to get jumbled together and confused by sales people. (Some of the Graf dealers who have been to the "mandatory" taining in Calgary throw up a smokescreen of cool sounding rhetoric, but then get vague when pressed for more detail.)

So now I know that there is boot pitch as well as blade pitch. And, as I suspected, the blade pitch is not defined by the blade itself.

Another one that confuses me is the profiling that some shops sell. They spec the profile as a ratio such as 25/50 or 35/50, where the second number is the length of "flat" blade and the first number is the length of "flat" that is in front of the center line of the blade. I didn't even know that there was a "flat" spot! I thought that the runners had a constant radius over the working length (e.g 9', 11', etc.)

Is a profile that has a flat indeed a valid way to profile? If so, how is the remainder of the blade contoured?

[Jimmy_Wolf 0]

orphan Posted on Oct 14 2005, 12:19 PM

  QUOTE (JR Boucicaut @ Oct 14 2005, 11:29 AM)

Were you talking about blade pitch or boot pitch?

If you're talking blade pitch, your lines would be one 90-degree line on the back of the holder, then one going down the sole plates. It'll go downward. 

JR

I guess I didn't know exaclty which I was asking about. I'm just trying to make sense out of several "buzz words" that seem to get jumbled together and confused by sales people. (Some of the Graf dealers who have been to the "mandatory" taining in Calgary throw up a smokescreen of cool sounding rhetoric, but then get vague when pressed for more detail.)

So now I know that there is boot pitch as well as blade pitch. And, as I suspected, the blade pitch is not defined by the blade itself.

Another one that confuses me is the profiling that some shops sell. They spec the profile as a ratio such as 25/50 or 35/50, where the second number is the length of "flat" blade and the first number is the length of "flat" that is in front of the center line of the blade. I didn't even know that there was a "flat" spot! I thought that the runners had a constant radius over the working length (e.g 9', 11', etc.)

Is a profile that has a flat indeed a valid way to profile? If so, how is the remainder of the blade contoured? 

You don't wanna have flat spots on your runners. A flat spot is what a contour is supposed to get you rid of. A flat spot on a runner will make it harder for your feet to smoothly roll on the ice. A bad flat spot is one of the reasons why a player develops bone spurs at the heel.

Those 25/50 and 35/50 are more, I think, the percentage of blade that's in contact with the ice at the front, middle, and back, or something like that. I know Cag One uses this kind of chart, but I thought the numbers had to total 100, like 60/40, or 55/45...

I try to go on their site to see if they have the chart, but I seem to can't get on.

I personally think the best contour are made with Blade Master type of machines.

[jimmy 194]

All skates have a "flat" spot, that's what the radius is! If you have a 11' radius circle, say a big hula hoop. And you tap it on the ground, the part of the hoop that touches the ground is the flat spot of that circle. Take the earth for example. many thought the earth was flat, when in truth it was just a big circle. Still the earth looks flat where you are, doesn't it? Hmmm. That's all a skate radius is, just a smaller circle. The "flat" spot is the gliding surface of the blade. There is also a toe radius and a heel radius on a blade. The flat spot can be moved off center forward or back. That changes pitch.

The 25/50 Cag uses is just a code they use on their machines for the radius and pitch, no different than say 11'/neutral on a Blademaster, Fleming Gray or any other radius grinder.

jimmy-wolf, CAG numbers do not have to equal 100. Don't know where you got that misinformation. Also Contours do not get rid of flat spots per say, the get rid of TWO flat spots,often put on blades by bad sharpeners. Two flat spots, inhibits pivoting and turning.

[Jimmy_Wolf 0]

jimmy Posted on Oct 14 2005, 08:26 PM jimmy-wolf, CAG numbers do not have to equal 100. Don't know where you got that misinformation. Also Contours do not get rid of flat spots per say, the get rid of TWO flat spots,often put on blades by bad sharpeners. Two flat spots, inhibits pivoting and turning.

I had pictures of the Cag One different radius options. I thought the numbers had to equal 100%, but I might be wrong. Next time I visit the store I saw it at I will post the pix...

But I'm pretty sure flat spots are not tolerated in a well done contour...

[jimmy 194]

jimmy Posted on Oct 14 2005, 08:26 PM jimmy-wolf, CAG numbers do not have to equal 100. Don't know where you got that misinformation. Also Contours do not get rid of flat spots per say, the get rid of TWO flat spots,often put on blades by bad sharpeners. Two flat spots, inhibits pivoting and turning.

I had pictures of the Cag One different radius options. I thought the numbers had to equal 100%, but I might be wrong. Next time I visit the store I saw it at I will post the pix...

But I'm pretty sure flat spots are not tolerated in a well done contour...

Your misinformed on both points. Apparently you are not a skate sharpener or a radius technician. You have to have a flat area. The size of the flat is adjustable, that is the radius. You are confusing the normal gliding area flat spot with a problem of having two flat spots, which is bad.

All the Cag numbers mean is the size of the radius. 25mm =6' radius, 50mm=11ft radius, etc. Nothing has to equal 100. Not sure where you got that nonsense. A 25/50 simply is a operator code which means 2 inches (50mm) of gliding surface with 1 inch each side of center.

[djinferno 2]

Someone should make a radius chart for skate brands...

Right now, I can skate in a Mission and graf holder, I can't do a tuuk and never skated in a E-Blade...

[Jimmy_Wolf 0]

jimmy Posted on Oct 14 2005, 09:04 PM

  QUOTE (Jimmy_Wolf @ Oct 14 2005, 08:41 PM)

QUOTE 

jimmy Posted on Oct 14 2005, 08:26 PM jimmy-wolf, CAG numbers do not have to equal 100. Don't know where you got that misinformation. Also Contours do not get rid of flat spots per say, the get rid of TWO flat spots,often put on blades by bad sharpeners. Two flat spots, inhibits pivoting and turning. 

I had pictures of the Cag One different radius options. I thought the numbers had to equal 100%, but I might be wrong. Next time I visit the store I saw it at I will post the pix...

But I'm pretty sure flat spots are not tolerated in a well done contour... 

Your misinformed on both points. Apparently you are not a skate sharpener or a radius technician. You have to have a flat area. The size of the flat is adjustable, that is the radius. You are confusing the normal gliding area flat spot with a problem of having two flat spots, which is bad.

All the Cag numbers mean is the size of the radius. 25mm =6' radius, 50mm=11ft radius, etc. Nothing has to equal 100. Not sure where you got that nonsense. A 25/50 simply is a operator code which means 2 inches (50mm) of gliding surface with 1 inch each side of center. 

I will try to get you the picture from the hockey shop I know tomorrow.

It's the Cag One info I'm missing. As I said, I'm not a big Cag Obe fan. I do sharp skates, more in the past than I do now, but I'm not so much of a profiler... If you could get us some more info on that Jimmy, that would be great, as the contour/pitch theories have always been a lot of interest to me.

I'll get back to you later. I'll also try to get some more info on that topic once I get informed by hardcore profiler...

[Chadd 916]

Someone should make a radius chart for skate brands...

Right now, I can skate in a Mission and graf holder, I can't do a tuuk and never skated in a E-Blade...

Mission/Graf 11'

CCM 10'

Tuuk 9'

[djinferno 2]

Someone should make a radius chart for skate brands...

Right now, I can skate in a Mission and graf holder, I can't do a tuuk and never skated in a E-Blade...

Mission/Graf 11'

CCM 10'

Tuuk 9'

So If I understand this, 11' radius means that you have more surface of your blade on the Ice then a 9' radius?

My question is, does a E-Blade have the same pitch as a mission pure fly (What I'm skating on now)?

As you know, I now hate graf after what I went thru with them... Tried a bauer and I could barely control myself...

I'm looking at going with a Vector Pro Or RBK 8 but I'm nervous about the pitch and I kind of got use to the soft type boot that wraps around your feet.... Like Graf 703, Mission S500, Pure Fly etc... Also I 'm looking for a boot that allows forward lean...

Thanks for the help

[Jimmy_Wolf 0]

djinferno Posted on Oct 14 2005, 09:32 PM

  QUOTE (Chadd @ Oct 14 2005, 09:17 PM)

QUOTE (djinferno @ Oct 14 2005, 10:08 PM)

Someone should make a radius chart for skate brands...

Right now, I can skate in a Mission and graf holder, I can't do a tuuk and never skated in a E-Blade... 

Mission/Graf 11'

CCM 10'

Tuuk 9' 

So If I understand this, 11' radius means that you have more surface of your blade on the Ice then a 9' radius?

My question is, does a E-Blade have the same pitch as a mission pure fly (What I'm skating on now)?

As you know, I now hate graf after what I went thru with them... Tried a bauer and I could barely control myself...

I'm looking at going with a Vector Pro Or RBK 8 but I'm nervous about the pitch and I kind of got use to the soft type boot that wraps around your feet.... Like Graf 703, Mission S500, Pure Fly etc... Also I 'm looking for a boot that allows forward lean...

Thanks for the help 

To my knowledge, Nike have a pretty forward flexing boot... As it says it: FLEXlite, as in flexible... but they come with the TUUK or Lightspeed holders. If I were you, I would keep your old Graf holders (if you still have them of course) and put them on a Nike boot.

[Chadd 916]

Someone should make a radius chart for skate brands...

Right now, I can skate in a Mission and graf holder, I can't do a tuuk and never skated in a E-Blade...

Mission/Graf 11'

CCM 10'

Tuuk 9'

So If I understand this, 11' radius means that you have more surface of your blade on the Ice then a 9' radius?

My question is, does a E-Blade have the same pitch as a mission pure fly (What I'm skating on now)?

As you know, I now hate graf after what I went thru with them... Tried a bauer and I could barely control myself...

I'm looking at going with a Vector Pro Or RBK 8 but I'm nervous about the pitch and I kind of got use to the soft type boot that wraps around your feet.... Like Graf 703, Mission S500, Pure Fly etc... Also I 'm looking for a boot that allows forward lean...

Thanks for the help

If you like the pure fly, the Vector Pro might be the worst possible choice for you. The pro tack is also not a softer ankle like you are looking for. The Nike has some similar concepts but is also a taller skate, about an eyelet or so taller.

[NuggyBuggy 0]

All skates have a "flat" spot, that's what the radius is! If you have a 11' radius circle, say a big hula hoop. And you tap it on the ground, the part of the hoop that touches the ground is the flat spot of that circle.

I don't get it. Unless we are assuming that the hula hoop deforms when you are touching it on the ground, it is still circular. And if it's circular, it's not flat, by definition. An 11' circle and a 8' circle are still circles, which are not flat, anywhere. So what am I missing here ?

[djinferno 2]

Someone should make a radius chart for skate brands...

Right now, I can skate in a Mission and graf holder, I can't do a tuuk and never skated in a E-Blade...

Mission/Graf 11'

CCM 10'

Tuuk 9'

So If I understand this, 11' radius means that you have more surface of your blade on the Ice then a 9' radius?

My question is, does a E-Blade have the same pitch as a mission pure fly (What I'm skating on now)?

As you know, I now hate graf after what I went thru with them... Tried a bauer and I could barely control myself...

I'm looking at going with a Vector Pro Or RBK 8 but I'm nervous about the pitch and I kind of got use to the soft type boot that wraps around your feet.... Like Graf 703, Mission S500, Pure Fly etc... Also I 'm looking for a boot that allows forward lean...

Thanks for the help

If you like the pure fly, the Vector Pro might be the worst possible choice for you. The pro tack is also not a softer ankle like you are looking for. The Nike has some similar concepts but is also a taller skate, about an eyelet or so taller.

well, these are the skates i presently use...

I would like something a little stiffer with a Similar blade and forward flex...

http://i3.ebayimg.com/01/i/04/d6/88/2d_1_b.JPG

[Chadd 916]

If S400 or S500 doesn't work for you, the Nike might be a good second choice. Kor might also be an option if you have a dealer near you.

[masterpirate13 0]

djinferno Posted on Oct 14 2005, 09:32 PM

  QUOTE (Chadd @ Oct 14 2005, 09:17 PM)

QUOTE (djinferno @ Oct 14 2005, 10:08 PM)

Someone should make a radius chart for skate brands...

Right now, I can skate in a Mission and graf holder, I can't do a tuuk and never skated in a E-Blade... 

Mission/Graf 11'

CCM 10'

Tuuk 9' 

So If I understand this, 11' radius means that you have more surface of your blade on the Ice then a 9' radius?

My question is, does a E-Blade have the same pitch as a mission pure fly (What I'm skating on now)?

As you know, I now hate graf after what I went thru with them... Tried a bauer and I could barely control myself...

I'm looking at going with a Vector Pro Or RBK 8 but I'm nervous about the pitch and I kind of got use to the soft type boot that wraps around your feet.... Like Graf 703, Mission S500, Pure Fly etc... Also I 'm looking for a boot that allows forward lean...

Thanks for the help 

To my knowledge, Nike have a pretty forward flexing boot... As it says it: FLEXlite, as in flexible... but they come with the TUUK or Lightspeed holders. If I were you, I would keep your old Graf holders (if you still have them of course) and put them on a Nike boot.

Actually I just bought the Nike flexlite 12's and have skated on them a couple times and they have absolutely no flex. My friend who has skated on them for the whole summer up until now says that they don't soften up very much at all. If you want forward flex then you just have to not lace the top eyelet and it changes the whole feel of the skate, tons of forward flex.

[jimmy 194]

All skates have a "flat" spot, that's what the radius is!  If you have a 11' radius circle, say a big hula hoop.  And you tap it on the ground, the part of the hoop that touches the ground is the flat spot of that circle.

I don't get it. Unless we are assuming that the hula hoop deforms when you are touching it on the ground, it is still circular. And if it's circular, it's not flat, by definition. An 11' circle and a 8' circle are still circles, which are not flat, anywhere. So what am I missing here ?

Your missing that every circle does has a flat spot. As you enlarge the circle, the flat spot gets bigger. Return to the perfect example, the earth. Can you see the curve of the earth where you are standing? Of course not, the radius of the earth is 3963 miles so the flat spot is miles long. On a 11 ft radius, the flat is about 2 inches.