A-O

[donkey87 0]

Hate to burst your bubble, but I've watched guys clamp down on Ovechkin and keep him off the scoresheet, as well.

Yeah, there have been a few times that he hasn't had a point, but look at what else he does on the ice. If he's not scoring, he hitting. I see Crosby putting up a huge amount of points in his career, but I see AO as the better leader and more complete player.

[Rustybender 0]

I didn't see the game so I can only look at the box score. I see Sid got a goal and 3 assists which is one heckuva night but take the game as a whole and I'm not so sure. They had one player with four points, three players with 3 points, 2 with 2, and 5 with 1. Did Crosby dominate or did the Penguins as a whole dominate?

I wish I saw the game, it looks like it was fairly even up until the 3rd. What the heck happened? Did the Caps just fall apart or where they on the ropes for most of the game?

I posted a couple pages back that I started out watching every Penguins game wanting to see Sid work magic. If there was magic to be seen last night, I am going to be royally pissed. What a bad night to not watch any hockey

[chippa13 1844]

Hate to burst your bubble, but I've watched guys clamp down on Ovechkin and keep him off the scoresheet, as well.

Yeah, there have been a few times that he hasn't had a point, but look at what else he does on the ice. If he's not scoring, he hitting. I see Crosby putting up a huge amount of points in his career, but I see AO as the better leader and more complete player.

It's funny, everyone calls Ovechkin the more complete player because he takes runs at guys. If that were the only criteria to being a complete player then Avery is the best player in the league. It takes more than just trying to hammer guys to be a complete player. For instance, how often does Ovechkin kill penalties? It's not very often. Is he on the ice in the last minute of a game to protect a lead? Not all that much. Those are things a "more complete player" does.

[donkey87 0]

It's funny, everyone calls Ovechkin the more complete player because he takes runs at guys. If that were the only criteria to being a complete player then Avery is the best player in the league. It takes more than just trying to hammer guys to be a complete player. For instance, how often does Ovechkin kill penalties? It's not very often. Is he on the ice in the last minute of a game to protect a lead? Not all that much. Those are things a "more complete player" does.

Not a complete player? He scores, and sets up goals. (He has almost as many assists as Crosby so you can't say that he doesn't pass.) He is physical, and I don't know how you can compare him to Avery. Ovechkin only has 30pims. He is also a +2, and he does kill penalties. He doesn't always play on the pk, but he is on it. Seems like a complete player to me.

[Eazy_b97 1]

Yeah, there have been a few times that he hasn't had a point, but look at what else he does on the ice. If he's not scoring, he hitting. I see Crosby putting up a huge amount of points in his career, but I see AO as the better leader and more complete player.

Crosby is fairly decent defensively and can play a good leadership role.

Ovechkin has been shut down, but puts up good numbers on a regular basis. He's scoring in around 80% of his games I believe, which is incredible for a rookie. He is much more difficult to shut down than Crosby at this point in his career.

I'd still take Crosby at this point though.

[chippa13 1844]

It's funny, everyone calls Ovechkin the more complete player because he takes runs at guys.  If that were the only criteria to being a complete player then Avery is the best player in the league.  It takes more than just trying to hammer guys to be a complete player.  For instance, how often does Ovechkin kill penalties?  It's not very often.  Is he on the ice in the last minute of a game to protect a lead?  Not all that much.  Those are things a "more complete player" does.

Not a complete player? He scores, and sets up goals. (He has almost as many assists as Crosby so you can't say that he doesn't pass.) He is physical, and I don't know how you can compare him to Avery. Ovechkin only has 30pims. He is also a +2, and he does kill penalties. He doesn't always play on the pk, but he is on it. Seems like a complete player to me.

If he's not scoring, he hitting.

Your words, not mine. And if you watch Caps games, you will notice that Ovechkin is seldom on the pk, usually only late in games they are down hoping to steal a shortie. His +/- could also be a function of the fact that he is seldom called upon to play against an opponent's scoring lines. Also, as I noted before, he usually isn't called upon to hold leads in the waning moments of a game.

If you want a textbook complete player his rookie season, take a look at Patrice Bergeron during the 03-04 season. He was one of the primary penalty killers, played the power play, and, up a goal or down a goal, was one of the guys called upon in the closing moments of a game. He played checking line, he played scoring line, he filled in as the top centerman. That is a complete player.

[chris17 0]

Hate to burst your bubble, but I've watched guys clamp down on Ovechkin and keep him off the scoresheet, as well.

Yeah, there have been a few times that he hasn't had a point, but look at what else he does on the ice. If he's not scoring, he hitting. I see Crosby putting up a huge amount of points in his career, but I see AO as the better leader and more complete player.

It's funny, everyone calls Ovechkin the more complete player because he takes runs at guys. If that were the only criteria to being a complete player then Avery is the best player in the league. It takes more than just trying to hammer guys to be a complete player. For instance, how often does Ovechkin kill penalties? It's not very often. Is he on the ice in the last minute of a game to protect a lead? Not all that much. Those are things a "more complete player" does.

What more can you expect from him? He is on the ice for the whole PP, plays more shifts than the average player throughout the night already, and now he has to play the PK to get respect? Cmon this the NHL where shifts are sub one minute and he has to play the whole game to get respect? You do realize that he is a forward? The fact that he is talented enough to be on the PK at all should be enough.

[chippa13 1844]

Maybe...

But there is no question of which one makes themselves more visible out there and who is the more complete player as of now.  But they play such different styles, it is hard to compare.

But don't forget about the intangibles...

Ovechkin is a plus 2 on a team that has a -48 Goal differential.  Crosby a -8 on a team that has a -55 goal differential.  Ovechkin drills guys and is a physical presence as well.

And they both make their teammates better...I read the other day someone wrote that only Crosby does, and that is a joke...Sorry.

If Ovechkin makes his teammates better, then why does the next closest guy on the team have 27 less points. Ovechkin has 29 powerplay points, the next closest guy has 13, and that is the quarterback of the pp. How is that making your teammates around you better?

Watch some cap games and get back to me, because its obvious that you don't watch any the way you are speaking. I've watched them sporadically, and the number of plays his teammates can't finish from his good passes is crazy.

And Chippa- I hate to state the obvious, but when you are the only legit scoring threat on a team, its prettyb easy to shut you down. But 34 goals....

And give me a break... More complete because he can score, pass, play physical, and knows what the defensive zone looks like. He can do it all...Except fight thus far. Last I checked, thats a complete player. perhaps you know different

And only 20 scored 5 on 5.

[Edge 0]

As in complete player i dont mean just the situations he plays in, i mainly mean his fundamental skills. He's got a hell of a shot, a hard, accurate passing ability, sees the ice well, hits hard(and often), he's extremely hard to knock off his feet, he's strong ont he puck(it seems to end up back on his stick even if he loses it, hes fast, and he works his ass off every shift. He picks grit over being pretty on the ice.

Now i'm not saying that Crosby doesn't have any of these aspects in any way, and i'm sure he has abilities that AO does not have, but Ovechkin imo is more dominant in his games and will be a more effective player in any situation(such as being on any team) than sid the kid will.

Thing is both of them will become(or continue) to be superstars in their careers, but they just have different playing styles...very different actually, so that's why it's so hard, and almost pointless, to comapare them.

[donkey87 0]

If you look at all the rookies, Ovechkin is definitely the most complete player. AS he matures he will only get better. If he's this good now, imagine what he'll be like in a few years.

[chippa13 1844]

Thats weak and you know it. Almost as bad as my Lemiuex arguments :weak"

Gagne is the only guy who has more even strength goals with 22, so your point is crap.

"Only" 20.....wow

I knew that one would fire things up. ;)

[chippa13 1844]

If you look at all the rookies, Ovechkin is definitely the most complete player. AS he matures he will only get better. If he's this good now, imagine what he'll be like in a few years.

And that's what they said about Selanne, Samsonov, Kariya, et al. So many guys have come in with strong rookie seasons only to have that be their plateau. Are these guys all guys I want on my team? Sure, but none have really taken their rookie success and went above it.

[donkey87 0]

And that's what they said about Selanne, Samsonov, Kariya, et al. So many guys have come in with strong rookie seasons only to have that be their plateau. Are these guys all guys I want on my team? Sure, but none have really taken their rookie success and went above it.

You've got a point, but I just don't see AO or Crosby reaching their plateau in their rookie seasons.

[Chadd 916]

Thats weak and you know it.  Almost as bad as my Lemiuex arguments :weak"

Gagne is the only guy who has more even strength goals with 22, so your point is crap.

"Only" 20.....wow

I knew that one would fire things up. ;)

For the record, Crosby "only" has 14 at even strength.

The biggest difference I see is that Crosby seems to expect everyone to respect him as a leader without earning it while Ovechkin seems happy to go out and lead by example.

[Eazy_b97 1]

If you look at all the rookies, Ovechkin is definitely the most complete player. AS he matures he will only get better. If he's this good now, imagine what he'll be like in a few years.

I hate to do this, but he isn't. As far as I know (I could be wrong), Steen is the only rookie to be playing first unit on the PK, PP, even strength, last minute and do alright in all of them. He obviously isn't the best rookie, not by any stretch, but he is the most "complete" when looking at who can play in the most situations and bring all elements. He doesn't hammer people like AO, but finishes hits. Again, not saying Steen's even on a level with these guys (he isn't), but AO isn't the most complete rookie. You could also make cases for some of the rookie D like Phaneuf and Seabrook, but I don't see them enough to comment.

[Edge 0]

i dont know how the others here are putting it but like i said i think he's complete fundamentally rather than complete in playing in situations.

[Eazy_b97 1]

Complete fundamentals really only means talented, which he definately is. There are alot of players who are "complete fundamentally" yet nowhere near a complete player.

[Cavs019 708]

Even if AO has "peaked" at 20, he is a 100 pt player right now. If he can do that for 15+ years he's in the hall of fame.

[Edge 0]

Wow, the Pittsburgh announcers are bad..

holy cow i noticed. And so were Dallas's that night. They wouldn't stop praising Crosby and didn't even give OV the time of day.

Eazy, yes but do they use and show all of that talent on the ice during a game like ovechkin does?

[Eazy_b97 1]

Yes, but not as well. Alot of players have the skills, but can't put it into place. Obviously AO has an amazing skill set, but that doesn't make him a complete player.

[Eazy_b97 1]

He's an elite player in the league already, but he isn't a complete player and the fact he hits doesn't make him that. People often mistake hitting with being a solid defender and it isn't true. Ovechkin is definately a PF, but I just think alot of the hype, for both of these two, exceeds their abilities. In trying to prove that one is better than the other, people often stretch the truth to make their point.

What doe a complete skillset really mean? For me, that he's talented.

[echi24 1]

I would say Ovechkin is the most complete rookie right now. Crosby has hurt his team bad with something like 55 minor penalties this year already. Steen is playing above expectations, but he does not have offensive skills even close to that of Ovechkins. I understand he is a better and more responsible defensively, but Ovechkin is strong, and can break games open single handedly. He will learn and become a better defensive player as he gets experience. To be fair I havent seen much of Svatos, but I would say that Ovechkin or Phaneuf are top 2 in terms of being all round.

[Eazy_b97 1]

In terms of what they can do in a game, or that they are competent in all zones of the ice and in all situations? I said Steen is nowhere near as talented as Ovechkin. It's like saying Kovalchuk is more complete than Draper. Sure he'll score enough to make up for it, but it doesn't mean he's a more complete player.

[Chadd 916]

Wow, the Pittsburgh announcers are bad..

holy cow i noticed. And so were Dallas's that night. They wouldn't stop praising Crosby and didn't even give OV the time of day.

Eazy, yes but do they use and show all of that talent on the ice during a game like ovechkin does?

Yet somehow Lange (pittsburgh) is in the HHOF. I don't get it either.

[2048 0]

Ovechkin likes to hang...a lot. He was cherry picking all game long against the Bruins.