Top 100 NHL players

[Eazy_b97 1]

Mario had a good cast as well in the early 90's. The great top to bottom team in Edmonton could also work against your argument that Gretz was the better player. If Gretz was on a one line team he would've never left the ice, where in Edmonton they had the support to roll the lines over more so than a one line team. I can't comment on who was better because Gretz was just ending his "greatness" era when I was old enough to appreciate what he was doing and Mario was coming off one of his injuries. I saw both play live and was more impressed with the control Mario had, but I never got to see Gretz on the Oil or even Kings (live at least).

[Chadd 916]

That is why I referenced the supporting cast. Mario had a bunch of nobody's for quite a while. The Edmonton teams, particularly in 85, were the strongest teams from top to bottom in the history of the game. They were both players on a different level, but mario in the first half of his career used to toy with defenseman at will and score or make the perfect pass. Its one of those arguments that will go on forever, but for my money, Mario was best. If we talk to our people over 50, Orr blew them both away.

Recchi, Tocchet, Stevens, Robitaille, Sandstrom, Francis, Jagr, Kovalev, Nedved, Lang, Straka, Coffey, Murphy, Ulfie, Kjell, etc... Yeah, Mario played with a bunch of slugs for his whole career. Mario never passed as much as he should have early in his career and wasn't the best "team guy."

I do think Mario is the most physically gifted man to play the game, he just wasn't as motivated as many others. Orr changed the game more than any one man to ever play the game. Gretz was just the epitome of mind over body. Unless they change the rules drastically, nobody will ever break his records.

[Bo from Boston 0]

All the players you listed showed up the better part of more than halfway thru his career. The team took shape in 1990 and with the trade with the Whalers put together the talent for the cup. I think you answered it best yourself tho - not motivated yet scored approx 620 goals in 745 games before the retirement. Obviously you read the hockey news top 100 because your analogies are word for word (mario is physically gifted, orr changed the game, gretz mind over body). Next time quote them if your going to use their exact words.

[Bo from Boston 0]

Theo - the stats absolutely speak for themselves...no doubt. He was unbelievable. Stats aside, as much as I don't like hoop, no player in the history of ANY sport controlled his game and was better than his peers than Micheal Jordan. Hockey isn't as high scoring and you don't get to play 90% of a game like in basketball. MJ I think will go down as the greatest athlete of all time. We get to argue about Mario and Orr and others....there is no argument when it comes to that. MJ had no competition.

[Chadd 916]

Actually I haven't read it. I've been saying the same things for 5 years or more, though it's nice to see the experts agree with me. When was that list published?

As for Mario, imagine what he would have done if he had Gretz's desire. He very well could have put up better numbers if he loved the game from day one through the end of his career.

[Chadd 916]

MJ was the beginning of the end of basketball as a true team sport. Chicago would give him the ball and let him shoot as many times as it took for him to get his points. Now every team looks for the one big mismatch and tries to clear out and iso that one guy. Not to mention he never had to worry about getting called for "palming" the ball or traveling. I think you have to take 5 or 6 steps to get called for that now. Obviously this debate doesn't belong in this forum though.

[Bo from Boston 0]

Its just such a great thing to argue about. They were part of arguably the best team ever assembled when they beat the soviets in the canada cup. I am just hoping that all the kids on this board get the chance to see another phenom come up that is clearly playing in a different place than everyone else on the ice. Those who think that Heatly or St Louis or Forsberg are in that place are sadly mistaken.

[Chadd 916]

I get THN, I just haven't read some of the recent issues. I'll dig around and see if I can find it.

[Dan_The_Man_16 0]

I also agree that Gretz was probably the best athlete in professional sports ever. Like said before his stats showed it and if you have ever seen him play in his prime in Edmonton he totally controlled the game, the guy could think through another whole team. As strage as it sounds for a man of his stature, he truly struck fear into his opponent becasue you never knew what he was going to do, he could have done anything with the puck.

Chadd what you said about MJ is exactly the reason I hate watching basketball. The best guy on the court get the ball and carries it through the whole team and jams it. IMO it gets pretty boring to watch. Then you get guys like Yao Ming, who is what like 7 ft tall? How can you play against that, it's a no contest.

[Bo from Boston 0]

The numbers are just the numbers. Watching Gretzky or Mario play was fantastic, but they did not dominate every shift, against everyone they played against. MJ did just that. Mario and Gretzky can go to most country's and never get noticed, MJ CAN'T do that. I think in the poll that came out for all sports a year or 2 ago, MJ was second to Ali and gretzky was 4th. (was pele 3?). I love hockey, but can appreciate when someone is just overwhelming to everyone around him...I don't think anyone in hockey could claim that but in my opinion MJ could.

[Dan_The_Man_16 0]

You can't say that though becasue hockey isn't as "mainstream" as boxing or basketball, therefor it won't get advertising like basketball stars do. MJ was on tons of international commercials, can you say that about Gretz? Of course not, he just didn't get the expousre.

Gretz didn't "dominate" because he couldn't "dominate", but he could control. When Wayne didn't have the puck, he was open, or on his way to being open, and when he had the puck, like I said before, he made guys panick because he could find any open guy on the ice, and he could pick the corners too. My point is that you constantly had to be aware where Wayne was and take away as many options as possible. He was probably the only player who couldn't be out-coached.

[Chadd 916]

The fact that MJ played in the biggest sport (at that time) in the US, in the third largest US city and signed a large number of endorsement deals doesn't mean he was more important to his sport or sports in general.

He was the pitchman for an up and coming basketball shoe brand you may have heard of. At that time Converse owned the sport and Nike hyped him as the greatest player ever, partly because it helped them sell shoes.

MJ never set single season scoring records, never set career scoring records and was an average shooter at best. Tell me again why he was so good, because the NBA and Nike said so?

[Dan_The_Man_16 0]

"Dominant" - To rule and control by superior power. (Webster's New World Dictionary and Thesaurus)

A dominant player, IMO is a player who can physically control a game. They don't nessicarly have to get alot of points. Keith Premeau in the playoff this year, and Cam Neely were "dominant" players. They both lead their team physically and were willing to put their bodies on the line to fire up the team. Gretz didn't have superior power, well he did, but not in the way I interpret the meaning of the word dominant. Someone playing like Keith Premeau did in this years playoffs was dominant, he tried to force the tempo to how he saw fit, or at least he tried to. Gretz didn't have to force it, he could just control the game. You have to think of it this way, he saw the game like no other player ever has, or probably will, and that is a big difference from being dominant, he was just a master of the sport.

I guess it sort of depends on how you intrepert the word "dominant".

[Chadd 916]

Gretz didn't have superior power, well he did, but not in the way I interpret the meaning of the word dominant.

You can't even agree with your own statements, please stop making an ass of yourself.

[Dan_The_Man_16 0]

Like I said, it all depends on how you look at the word. The main point is, I'm not disagreeing with you, Gretz was the best player ever, in probably any professional sport.

Chadd, like you said, the hype Jordan had, well according to my dad anyways, is similar to what Labron James is getting now, but was bigger. Personally I think Carmelo Anthony is better then Labron, and I think Larry Bird was a better player then Jordan. I kind of look at it like this, Gretz = Bird, team player who was just all around good, Jordan = Premeau, able to score when he needs it and uses size more then skills to achieve what he wants.

[hip check 0]

What a privilege a few of us had (those over, say 25 years old). We got to see some of the most amazing athletes in their primes. Consider the list:

NBA: Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Kareem, Dr. J, and MJ!

NFL: Marino, Elway, Lawrence Taylor, Payton (Walter, not Manning!) Jerry Rice

NHL: Roy, Gretzky, Mario, Lafleur, Dionne, Larry Robinson (plus others)

MLB: Ripken Jr., Bonds, Maguire, Clemens, etc.

It will be years before some of their records are even in reach of some of the current players. Hopefully every generation will get stars that shine so much brighter than the rest of their mates.

[Chadd 916]

Comparing Primeau to Jordan is not reasonable in any form. While I agree that Bird and Gretz were both very creative and unselfish players, I don't think you can really compare them either. That pains me to say as Bird is one of my all-time favorite athletes. Gretz put up so many points that there really isn't a good comparison to him in any major pro sport.

I don't think there is anyone in basketball to compare with Gretz. Wilt set dozens of records but much of it was due to his physical advantage over the rest of the league. I think Jordan and Lemieux would be comparable in the fact that both needed a supporting cast in order to win it all, but MJ had much more determination over the course of his career.

As for MJ and Lebron, Jordan really wasn't pumped that much until he started scoring bunches of points. We've had t put up with Lebron hype for two years now.

If you want to look for small aspects you can compare almost anyone, though it's not really accurate to do so.

[Eazy_b97 1]

Watching Gretzky or Mario play was fantastic, but they did not dominate every shift, against everyone they played against. MJ did just that. Mario and Gretzky can go to most country's and never get noticed, MJ CAN'T do that.

Everyone in the Pro-Stars is an international celebrity. Mario, No, Gretz, Yes.

I think MJ was great, but talking to many basketball enthusiast they say he doesn't compare to the greats of the past. Look at the records Gretz set, he was better than anyone that ever played, in any position. MJ couldn't set all the records Gretz did. He was the best of his era, but many may argue not of all-time. Although I think others have been more gifted physically there has been no player who could DOMINATE like Gretz did. You don't need to kill players physically if you always have the puck or are constantly in the proper position. Don't get me wrong, I love Mario and MJ, but they didn't have the impact that Gretz did. Ljack also made a good point with how the NBA basically allowed MJ to play outside the realm of the rules.

[goodtimes1919 0]

Watching Gretzky or Mario play was fantastic, but they did not dominate every shift, against everyone they played against.  MJ did just that. Mario and Gretzky can go to most country's and never get noticed, MJ CAN'T do that.

Everyone in the Pro-Stars is an international celebrity. Mario, No, Gretz, Yes.

I think MJ was great, but talking to many basketball enthusiast they say he doesn't compare to the greats of the past. Look at the records Gretz set, he was better than anyone that ever played, in any position. MJ couldn't set all the records Gretz did. He was the best of his era, but many may argue not of all-time. Although I think others have been more gifted physically there has been no player who could DOMINATE like Gretz did. You don't need to kill players physically if you always have the puck or are constantly in the proper position. Don't get me wrong, I love Mario and MJ, but they didn't have the impact that Gretz did. Ljack also made a good point with how the NBA basically allowed MJ to play outside the realm of the rules.

simply put, gretz was better at hockey than anyone ever has or ever will be in any other sport...