One90 Tendon Guard

[JR Boucicaut 3804]

ag12, your certainly allowed to voice your opinion.  If you were to look back over the last several years, Bauer tendon guards have been designed with increased flexibility,  which we firmly believe promotes and enhances good skating mechanics.

If you feel that a flexible guard ='s a cheaper way of constructing a skate, than so be it.  The fact is that it actually costs more considering multiple mold costs and raw material. 

Yes we are sensitive to skate costs to hit our margins, as a responsible company, but the "bottom line" is we try to desing and build skates that will help the hockey player perform to the best of their abilitys.

I guess I was wrong in my assumption in terms of the cost, but I'll take your word for it. I'm just disappointed that for $600 we as the consumer don't get more of a choice as say for example the flexes in sticks that was mentioned above. Why doesn't Bauer offer different flexes for its tendon guard, some of the pros didn't like it.... We have the choice to order it that way, but it's going to cost us alot more and how long before we are looking as a consumer at purchasing $800 or $1000 skates out of the box? I've been a loyal Bauer user for quite a fews years, and have always purchased the top line skates, but I just think for the price it's disappointing in my opinion, but I feel that the skate has it's shortfalls. The original Vapor 8 had a exteremly stiff guard, now it seems Bauer has gone completely in the opposite direction. The Vapor 20's have had durability issues, the original Lightspeeds had poor steel who was making those decisions in the corporate chain of command? The only line that I've ever really been happy with is the Supreme line, but the 8090 was junk in my mind unless you had it custom made or had wide feet. Just my opinion though....

My manufacturing background isn't in sporting goods, but all companies act the same way regardless of what they make. For example I worked for one of the largest companies in the world that produces personal care products of which probably many of you on this board use daily. They decided to take out the "good" in a new product introduction to increase usage and drive up sales, just a small change but over millions of uses has a huge impact to the bottom line. It pissed me off because it cheapened the product but it was so subtle that no-one would notice. That's why as I see the price of these skates shooting up that we as a consumer should demand more if they want to keep as loyal customers, for $600 we are getting stuck with in my mind is mostly a very good skate, but for $600 we should be able to order custom. I would prefer to stick with the top of the line since I'm hard on my skates, but I may have to switch to another brand.

I really don't understand your gripe. If the technology is there to improve a product, why not use it? I know for a fact that another skate mfgr wanted to use the concept we're discussing in question but couldn't because NBH has a patent on it.

Why slam a manufacturer for trying to come up with a different concept on how to make products? Sounds like if it were up to you, we'd still be skating in tube skates.

Just as DarkStar said, nobody's holding a gun to your head. However, on the same token, for you to slam a product when you haven't skated in them is pretty baseless. Try it, then get back at me.

[ag12 0]

ag12, your certainly allowed to voice your opinion.  If you were to look back over the last several years, Bauer tendon guards have been designed with increased flexibility,  which we firmly believe promotes and enhances good skating mechanics.

If you feel that a flexible guard ='s a cheaper way of constructing a skate, than so be it.  The fact is that it actually costs more considering multiple mold costs and raw material. 

Yes we are sensitive to skate costs to hit our margins, as a responsible company, but the "bottom line" is we try to desing and build skates that will help the hockey player perform to the best of their abilitys.

I guess I was wrong in my assumption in terms of the cost, but I'll take your word for it. I'm just disappointed that for $600 we as the consumer don't get more of a choice as say for example the flexes in sticks that was mentioned above. Why doesn't Bauer offer different flexes for its tendon guard, some of the pros didn't like it.... We have the choice to order it that way, but it's going to cost us alot more and how long before we are looking as a consumer at purchasing $800 or $1000 skates out of the box? I've been a loyal Bauer user for quite a fews years, and have always purchased the top line skates, but I just think for the price it's disappointing in my opinion, but I feel that the skate has it's shortfalls. The original Vapor 8 had a exteremly stiff guard, now it seems Bauer has gone completely in the opposite direction. The Vapor 20's have had durability issues, the original Lightspeeds had poor steel who was making those decisions in the corporate chain of command? The only line that I've ever really been happy with is the Supreme line, but the 8090 was junk in my mind unless you had it custom made or had wide feet. Just my opinion though....

My manufacturing background isn't in sporting goods, but all companies act the same way regardless of what they make. For example I worked for one of the largest companies in the world that produces personal care products of which probably many of you on this board use daily. They decided to take out the "good" in a new product introduction to increase usage and drive up sales, just a small change but over millions of uses has a huge impact to the bottom line. It pissed me off because it cheapened the product but it was so subtle that no-one would notice. That's why as I see the price of these skates shooting up that we as a consumer should demand more if they want to keep as loyal customers, for $600 we are getting stuck with in my mind is mostly a very good skate, but for $600 we should be able to order custom. I would prefer to stick with the top of the line since I'm hard on my skates, but I may have to switch to another brand.

I really don't understand your gripe. If the technology is there to improve a product, why not use it? I know for a fact that another skate mfgr wanted to use the concept we're discussing in question but couldn't because NBH has a patent on it.

Why slam a manufacturer for trying to come up with a different concept on how to make products? Sounds like if it were up to you, we'd still be skating in tube skates.

Just as DarkStar said, nobody's holding a gun to your head. However, on the same token, for you to slam a product when you haven't skated in them is pretty baseless. Try it, then get back at me.

I understand where you are coming from, I know I have other choices for skates, that's nothing new. But when I'm standing in the skates and wondering for $600 is this skate is worth the hype, I'm not sure and that's why i posed the question. There have been many new gimmicks/technology on skates that have failed or gone by the boards over the years, of which I've purchased, why all of a sudden is this going to be the answer. In 2 years Bauer will come out with something new that is supposed to be the "best skate ever". I feel that Bauer had a good thing going with the 8000 for example, it was a durable, comfortable skate with good support, but we can't get it anymore since now we are being fed that this "new" technology is the best for us. I just think it's too bad that they don't offer for $600 the ability for the consumer to customize the skate to their liking right out of the store. This skate isn't some $60 running shoe, it's a sizable investment and I think we as consumers should be expecting more for our money as the price of these skates go up. But if some of the pros are making an adjustment to the guard, then they don't agree with the new technology either and they aren't in the NHL because they are poor skaters and need the help. So as of now I'm not going to buy the skate, I'll wait to see what the response is from others....... Also, why is it wrong for me to slam a product when other's on this board are taking shots at Warrior and their business practices for example, they obvisously have their reasons as I do mine. You can say my gripe is baseless since I haven't skated in them, but alot of it based on the history I've had with Bauer skates, at least you can't question my loyalty but that may change.

[JR Boucicaut 3804]

Using pro players in your argument isn't a valid one...they would be the ones less receptive to change. They're going to go with what got them there. Look at how long guys hold on to their stuff. NBH released the ONE90 slowly...look at how many guys ended up with them in the playoffs. I think there'll be a huge increase come October.

Haven't you read my review? I've had them since, what, March?

Like I said before, if we didn't have mfgrs continually pushing the envelope, we would be still using tube skates today.

And if it bothers you THAT much, I'm sure you can get a cobbler to cross-stitch the tendon guard. It won't move then.

[dustedvinyl 0]

My suggestion, and the final answer for this thread is that you, ag12, need to practice more, work harder, improve and become a pro so you'll never again worry about "off the shelf" skates you don't like eh?.... ;). Sorry mate but times/technology and models change. I was a huge Vapor 10 (not X) fan. Unless you're a pro you can't get them anymore... fact of life. I now skate in Vector 10.0's and before that Vector Pro's and guess what? Pretty soon those will be gone as well. Adapt mate or invent a solution.

[ag12 0]

Using pro players in your argument isn't a valid one...they would be the ones less receptive to change.  They're going to go with what got them there.  Look at how long guys hold on to their stuff.  NBH released the ONE90 slowly...look at how many guys ended up with them in the playoffs.  I think there'll be a huge increase come October.

Haven't you read my review?  I've had them since, what, March?

Like I said before, if we didn't have mfgrs continually pushing the envelope, we would be still using tube skates today.

And if it bothers you THAT much, I'm sure you can get a cobbler to cross-stitch the tendon guard.  It won't move then.

I've read your review, which is helpful. I use the NHL guys in my argument because it shows a flaw in the whole process. They are using customized skates to their liking to promote the product, while we the consumer who really support the product are stuck with a generic version that the people at Bauer have determined should be used by all. And since the cost of these skates are going higher and higher when does it become reasonable to ask for similar service? Product development is a part of the process and yes it's good that it's that way, I wouldn't want to be skating in tube skates either, but is it also okay to demand better service and more options as the prices skyrocket? I don't think it is. Unfortunately Bauer really is a poor example to use since they don't even offer a free stick like CCM and charge $100 more, so maybe that says alot about the company and how much they really care about the people who buy their products. That's corporate America, which unfortunately I know too well. Thanks for the idea of seeing a cobbler, but for now I'm just going to wait and see.

[ag12 0]

My suggestion, and the final answer for this thread is that you, ag12, need to practice more, work harder, improve and become a pro so you'll never again worry about "off the shelf" skates you don't like eh?.... ;). Sorry mate but times/technology and models change. I was a huge Vapor 10 (not X) fan. Unless you're a pro you can't get them anymore... fact of life. I now skate in Vector 10.0's and before that Vector Pro's and guess what? Pretty soon those will be gone as well. Adapt mate or invent a solution.

Thanks for the insight, but maybe you should try swimming upstream a bit for while, it makes you stronger rather than floating down the river with the flow all the time. Yes times/technology and models do change but service and options should also. That's my final thought on this thread.

[Justin 1933 134]

Skates is right...A flexible tendon guard is much better for a player's stride...That tendon guard is definitely not a cheap downgrade.

I have not tried on the skate, but from what I have seen, I will give NBH props for a nice skate.

[ag12 0]

Skates is right...A flexible tendon guard is much better for a player's stride...That tendon guard is definitely not a cheap downgrade.

I have not tried on the skate, but from what I have seen, I will give NBH props for a nice skate.

Well then you better get that memo to the guys in the NHL who had their tendon guard stiffened up. Based upon that comment they made a uneducated and poor choice.

If NBH made such a nice skate then why is there a thread already about defective One90's? They've been available for a month and it seems most are convinced that this a bulletproof product, maybe it's the $600 price tag that's doing convincing.

[Justin 1933 134]

Just because an NHL player uses it, doesn't make it the best....Ever put on a pair of Gretzky gloves...one word..Awful...

I am not saying the skates are bulletproof, but what I am saying is a flexible tendon guard is a good thing...

[JR Boucicaut 3804]

Using pro players in your argument isn't a valid one...they would be the ones less receptive to change.  They're going to go with what got them there.  Look at how long guys hold on to their stuff.  NBH released the ONE90 slowly...look at how many guys ended up with them in the playoffs.  I think there'll be a huge increase come October.

Haven't you read my review?  I've had them since, what, March?

Like I said before, if we didn't have mfgrs continually pushing the envelope, we would be still using tube skates today.

And if it bothers you THAT much, I'm sure you can get a cobbler to cross-stitch the tendon guard.  It won't move then.

I've read your review, which is helpful. I use the NHL guys in my argument because it shows a flaw in the whole process. They are using customized skates to their liking to promote the product, while we the consumer who really support the product are stuck with a generic version that the people at Bauer have determined should be used by all. And since the cost of these skates are going higher and higher when does it become reasonable to ask for similar service? Product development is a part of the process and yes it's good that it's that way, I wouldn't want to be skating in tube skates either, but is it also okay to demand better service and more options as the prices skyrocket? I don't think it is. Unfortunately Bauer really is a poor example to use since they don't even offer a free stick like CCM and charge $100 more, so maybe that says alot about the company and how much they really care about the people who buy their products. That's corporate America, which unfortunately I know too well. Thanks for the idea of seeing a cobbler, but for now I'm just going to wait and see.

Damn, my head's spinning...

You can use that argument for ANY SKATE REGARDLESS OF BRAND! By your reasoning, the Pro Tacks must be garbage because Alexei Kovalev skates in older model Tacks, right? If you want custom skates, that can be arranged. However, this is NBH's product and that is what they have decided to roll with.

As far as the stick promo, why should they? They already have the market share on skates.

Now you have two product guys stating the benefits of a flexible tendon guard...one's a former NHLer...Justin on the other hand...um...oh, yeah, is an ex-PBHer!

[DarkStar50 679]

If NBH made such a nice skate then why is there a thread already about defective One90's?

A washer falling off a copper rivet does not constitute a defective skate. I don't think General Motors will be giving out a new car for a loose lug nut, either.

It seems corporate business really disillusioned you. What did you expect from the corporate world? Feel good stories about saving the world?

[ag12 0]

Using pro players in your argument isn't a valid one...they would be the ones less receptive to change.  They're going to go with what got them there.   Look at how long guys hold on to their stuff.  NBH released the ONE90 slowly...look at how many guys ended up with them in the playoffs.  I think there'll be a huge increase come October.

Haven't you read my review?  I've had them since, what, March?

Like I said before, if we didn't have mfgrs continually pushing the envelope, we would be still using tube skates today.

And if it bothers you THAT much, I'm sure you can get a cobbler to cross-stitch the tendon guard.  It won't move then.

I've read your review, which is helpful. I use the NHL guys in my argument because it shows a flaw in the whole process. They are using customized skates to their liking to promote the product, while we the consumer who really support the product are stuck with a generic version that the people at Bauer have determined should be used by all. And since the cost of these skates are going higher and higher when does it become reasonable to ask for similar service? Product development is a part of the process and yes it's good that it's that way, I wouldn't want to be skating in tube skates either, but is it also okay to demand better service and more options as the prices skyrocket? I don't think it is. Unfortunately Bauer really is a poor example to use since they don't even offer a free stick like CCM and charge $100 more, so maybe that says alot about the company and how much they really care about the people who buy their products. That's corporate America, which unfortunately I know too well. Thanks for the idea of seeing a cobbler, but for now I'm just going to wait and see.

Damn, my head's spinning...

You can use that argument for ANY SKATE REGARDLESS OF BRAND! By your reasoning, the Pro Tacks must be garbage because Alexei Kovalev skates in older model Tacks, right? If you want custom skates, that can be arranged. However, this is NBH's product and that is what they have decided to roll with.

As far as the stick promo, why should they? They already have the market share on skates.

Now you have two product guys stating the benefits of a flexible tendon guard...one's a former NHLer...Justin on the other hand...um...oh, yeah, is an ex-PBHer!

Well maybe it should be spinning, I'm taking the product to the task and the responses that I'm getting are not satisfactory for the price that is being asked. Have you in your job ever been taken to task over what you do? Has someone ever put your feet to the fire? That's what I'm doing here, if that's not appreciated then fine, I guess in this case the customer isn't right. If you buy an expensive car do you drive away from the dealership and never go back? No, you expect something for the sizable investment you have just made, that's certainly not true with skates for sure. So my point is that the price and product are lacking in balance. Also, I'm realizing that this maybe the wrong place for discussing this issue since the people on this board don't have the power to impact mfgers choices to consumers anyway. So this in some ways has been much ado about nothing.

[JR Boucicaut 3804]

How the hell can you be taking the product to the task if YOU HAVE NEVER SKATED IN IT?

Why is my head spinning? Because you've gotten answers from 4 people who are respected in this industry and apparently it isn't good enough for you.

[Justin 1933 134]

Come JR..I played two game in the MLRH as well...lol...Oh yeah, I skated for a week with the Ducks while Jiggy was holding out for more $$$...Does that count? lol

[JR Boucicaut 3804]

Yeah, but were you on TV during MLRH?

On PBH, you were a superstar...Hollywood, baby!

[Justin 1933 134]

It was a blast to be at a bar at 12:00am and laugh at yourself....Good times....

[ag12 0]

How the hell can you be taking the product to the task if YOU HAVE NEVER SKATED IN IT?

Why is my head spinning? Because you've gotten answers from 4 people who are respected in this industry and apparently it isn't good enough for you.

Well if I'm having issues/concerns with it in the store why should I drop $600 to find out? What's wrong with asking for more options and service for $600? Can you legitimately justify the price of that skates? That's why I've come here. Just because some people who are in the industry are telling me something should be a certain way doesn't coincide with what the consumer wants and you apparently are missing that link that I'm trying to make! It's the "We know what's best for you business model." The problem here that I'm seeing it that you are a hockey shop owner and I'm the consumer and we are having a disagreement on what should be provided, if you were in my shoes you may see it my way. Its conflict of interest in my mind and any "needless" criticism is unneeded it appears. The only solution I've been given is to go see a cobbler, but really that's just a bandaid approach. It's too bad these companies don't take the approach MIA does with gloves, but why bother when you have a large market share.

[Edge 0]

Man, ag12, you really should trust the words of these people. About being able to customize the skates for the same price...think about it, is it really viable? If this were the case, then your LHS would not carry any skates in store, why should they? If you can get your skates customized for free then everyone will be flocking in with their specs they want out of the skates that they want to have done up by NBH. This would be damn near impossible I think for both NBH and the shop. Just think about it, it's not that hard to understand. This isn't the right place to say what you are saying? Nowhere is. Why should a mnfg go for what you say when they have tested this concept, and have gotten a generally good response from it.

On a side note, I skated in the one90s yesterday for the first time(friend's pair). Couldn't give a full evaluation because my wide foot was killin' in the D width, but they seemed really easy to skate in. Longer radius was a breeze to get adjusted to. As for the tendon guard, to be honest I couldnt even notice it unless I really emphasized my stride.

[Edge 0]

Oh and you don't realize how many dealers are pissed with MIA for doing that. It completely takes away the business for all the shops.

[ag12 0]

Man, ag12, you really should trust the words of these people. About being able to customize the skates for the same price...think about it, is it really viable? If this were the case, then your LHS would not carry any skates in store, why should they? If you can get your skates customized for free then everyone will be flocking in with their specs they want out of the skates that they want to have done up by NBH. This would be damn near impossible I think for both NBH and the shop. Just think about it, it's not that hard to understand. This isn't the right place to say what you are saying? Nowhere is. Why should a mnfg go for what you say when they have tested this concept, and have gotten a generally good response from it.

On a side note, I skated in the one90s yesterday for the first time(friend's pair). Couldn't give a full evaluation because my wide foot was killin' in the D width, but they seemed really easy to skate in. Longer radius was a breeze to get adjusted to. As for the tendon guard, to be honest I couldnt even notice it unless I really emphasized my stride.

I'm not trying to be ass here, even though it may seem like it. I understand where you are coming from, but at some point I think the mfg should give back to the consumer in some way. You can buy a car with many options, and you hagle over the price, and alot more cars are sold in the US and Canada than skates. With skates you can't do that, and if you want to customize it costs alot more with the prices as they are. I think it would be a great option for consumers if they were presented both options when they tried on the skate, but not for a 20% upcharge. But that's my opinion, the only way this probably would ever happen is if people got outraged enough and enough demanded it, but that's unlikely to happen.

As for the MIA business model, yes I bet alot of shops are pissed since they have been cutout of the distribution channel, but it's great for the consumer. But just as they are unhappy with MIA's business practices, I'm unhappy with Bauer's practices currently, but shop owners are happy since it's making them money.

[sogaduch 0]

Oh and you don't realize how many dealers are pissed with MIA for doing that. It completely takes away the business for all the shops.

yeah lost a customer today to that customizer on the site with the price on there. asked why should i pay u 240 for the glove when i can buy it for like 200. now back to the tendon guard i can see where your coming form ag12 about wanting something specific but im not sure if this has been stated yet but if you want the tendon guard abit stiffer why not just buy a stock pair and have your LHS modify the tendon guard for like 20-30bucks hard to say exactly by putting some leather there if thats all you want

[DarkStar50 679]

Comparing car production to skate production is silly. They do not relate, especially by the economies of scale and production. There are many car factories in North America. There is one NBH skate production facility in Quebec for custom production. Pros are first in line. Your consumer request for a custom this or that for each NBH skate sale sends delivery into 8-10 month range for a LHS. That doesn't sound very good for the consumer!!

I really can't believe the banter being created by this thread about the tendon guard. The tendon guard is simply one of the smaller parts of the equation in making a skate yet for AG, the tendon guard is THE reason not to buy this skate. Are you OK with the new striping pattern on the laces?

[ag12 0]

Comparing car production to skate production is silly. They do not relate, especially by the economies of scale and production. There are many car factories in North America. There is one NBH skate production facility in Quebec for custom production. Pros are first in line. Your consumer request for a custom this or that for each NBH skate sale sends delivery into 8-10 month range for a LHS. That doesn't sound very good for the consumer!!

I really can't believe the banter being created by this thread about the tendon guard. The tendon guard is simply one of the smaller parts of the equation in making a skate yet for AG, the tendon guard is THE reason not to buy this skate. Are you OK with the new striping pattern on the laces?

Well then I'm sorry I'm so detailed concerned for $600 then...... 8-10 months sounds like a stretch but I'm not involved in the day to day operations at the Bauer factory. I was able to get a pair of custom made 8000's a few years ago in one month.............................. must have been a slow month.........

[ag12 0]

Comparing car production to skate production is silly. They do not relate, especially by the economies of scale and production. There are many car factories in North America. There is one  NBH skate production facility in Quebec for custom production. Pros are first in line. Your consumer request for a custom this or that for each NBH skate sale sends delivery into 8-10 month range for a LHS. That doesn't sound very good for the consumer!!

I really can't believe the banter being created by this thread about the tendon guard. The tendon guard is simply one of the smaller parts of the equation in making a skate yet for AG, the tendon guard is THE reason not to buy this skate. Are you OK with the new striping pattern on the laces?

Well then I'm sorry I'm so detailed concerned for $600 then...... 8-10 months sounds like a stretch but I'm not involved in the day to day operations at the Bauer factory. I was able to get a pair of custom made 8000's a few years ago in one month.............................. must have been a slow month.........

And secondly economies of scale doesn't apply much anymore to production, most companies now build under the lean manufacturing model......... even in car production....

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

Oh and you don't realize how many dealers are pissed with MIA for doing that. It completely takes away the business for all the shops.

yeah lost a customer today to that customizer on the site with the price on there. asked why should i pay u 240 for the glove when i can buy it for like 200. now back to the tendon guard i can see where your coming form ag12 about wanting something specific but im not sure if this has been stated yet but if you want the tendon guard abit stiffer why not just buy a stock pair and have your LHS modify the tendon guard for like 20-30bucks hard to say exactly by putting some leather there if thats all you want

Although i agree with most your argument is overall a silly one but sogaduch has the best idea so far why pay extra from the factory when you can get it modified for much less at a good shop like his!