Over 5 million offer, you cant get 4 first pick?

[cobrAA 0]

From what i understand from the simon gagné story on rds.ca, Any team that offer more than 5 millions to gagné wont be able to draft their 4 next first pick?

What that..

[troy 12]

They need to compensate the Flyers for signing Gagne if the Flyers choose not to match, because he's an RFA. Most GM's in hockey don't sign other teams RFA's to offer sheets though, I guess it's bad etiquette.

[RadioGaGa 162]

From what i understand from the simon gagné story on rds.ca, Any team that offer more than 5 millions to gagné wont be able to draft their 4 next first pick?

What that..  

That's the compensation they pay for signing a player from a teams Restricted list. That's why offers to big name RFA's is so rare. I believe the Rangers making offer to Fedorov a few years was the last (and, I think only) time it's happened.

[EDIT] You beat me....I don't think it's necessarilly a matter of ettiqutte. 4 First Rounders is just a big price to pay.

[troy 12]

Well what I read in the Philly papers is that Gainey, as the Habs are considered the most likely to do so, and Clarke are buddies so it wouldn't be polite.

[RadioGaGa 162]

Well what I read in the Philly papers is that Gainey, as the Habs are considered the most likely to do so, and Clarke are buddies so it wouldn't be polite.

I heard Gagne to MTL rumours as well...but mostly as a potential trade, not as a FA signing. BTW...since when does polite matter when Bobby Clarke is in the equattion.

[cobrAA 0]

who the hell would lose 4 first round pick for one player at 5 millions or 6 ... stupid, so if i understand well, gagne could maybe not play next year lol..

[kosydar 0]

Gagne will play. If it looks like he won't come to terms with the Flyers, they'll trade his rights. No use in keeping a guy like him around if he isn't going to play. If he refuses to sign, the Flyers could get a high reward for him from another team.

[EBondo 233]

Clarke is even more of an idiot than he's been in recent years if he lets Gagne go.

[kosydar 0]

Not necessarily. If he really hates Philly and wants out, he'll walk when he is a UFA (in two seasons I think). Clarke could get a great combo of prosepcts, picks, and players for him which could ultimately help the team more in the long run. Who knows what will happen, though.

[Chadd 916]

Clarke is even more of an idiot than he's been in recent years if he lets Gagne go.

He can't afford to pay Gagne and stay under the cap and nobody is going to take the dead weight on the roster to help him. Welsome to salary cap hockey folks.

[dieselbro 0]

Well what I read in the Philly papers is that Gainey, as the Habs are considered the most likely to do so, and Clarke are buddies so it wouldn't be polite.

I heard Gagne to MTL rumours as well...but mostly as a potential trade, not as a FA signing. BTW...since when does polite matter when Bobby Clarke is in the equattion.

there seems to be a lot of buzz around here in Vancouver regarding Gagne, most likely also a trade, not a signing

[Eazy_b97 1]

who the hell would lose 4 first round pick for one player at 5 millions or 6 ... stupid, so if i understand well, gagne could maybe not play next year lol..

You're a top team in the league, have room under the cap, and expect your pick will be between 25-30th overall in the next 4 years. The RFA available is Ovechkin.... Would you make the offer?

[trucks 0]

Easily accept that whenever hes a RFA hell be signed by Washington for whatever amount, half the cap if necessary because hes there goddamn whole team. Hopefully they can build something around him now. Hypothetically though I would sign him in a heartbeat and give up the pick, youre picks are always going to be late first rounders anyways and with good scouting you should be able to find some gems in the later rounds that wont hurt your future as much. You just better make sure you sign him to a long term deal and win a cup or two with him because your system will probably be in rough shape.

[Chadd 916]

Well what I read in the Philly papers is that Gainey, as the Habs are considered the most likely to do so, and Clarke are buddies so it wouldn't be polite.

I heard Gagne to MTL rumours as well...but mostly as a potential trade, not as a FA signing. BTW...since when does polite matter when Bobby Clarke is in the equattion.

there seems to be a lot of buzz around here in Vancouver regarding Gagne, most likely also a trade, not a signing

Naslund makes even more than Gagne wants, it doesn't help Philly at all and even makes their situation worse. That's why the buzz is coming from Vancouver. It isn't going to happen.

[supahdon 0]

That's the compensation they pay for signing a player from a teams Restricted list. That's why offers to big name RFA's is so rare. I believe the Rangers making offer to Fedorov a few years was the last (and, I think only) time it's happened.

Actually it was the Hurricanes that signed Fedorov to his offer sheet. And it wasn't the only one, as it was actually a more common practice years ago. The problem was that the original teams have the right to match, and a smart team would almost always match for a superstar.

Here's a quick and dirty summary of RFA offer sheets that I can remember off the top of my head (a lot involve the Blues):

1990: Blues sign D Scott Stevens from the Capitals. The Caps decide not to match and get 5 first round picks as compensation. Of the 5 picks, the only two that panned out were Sergei Gonchar and Brendan Witt.

1991: The Blues sign LW Brendan Shanahan from the Devils. The Devils opt not to match, but obviously cannot receive 5 first round picks since the Blues wouldn't have a pick again until 1996. This ends up going to arbitration. St. Louis' final offer is Curtis Joseph and Rod Brind'Amour. The Devils request Scott Stevens. Arbitrator rules in favor of New Jersey.

1993: The Blues sign C Petr Nedved from the Canucks. Again they don't have the draft picks to compensate, so an arbitrator gives Craig Janney to Vancouver. Janney refuses to go to Vancouver, so a couple weeks later, the Blues agree to send Jeff Brown, Bret Hedican, and Nathan Lafayette for Janney.

1994: The Whalers sign D Glen Wesley from the Bruins. The B's don't match. The Whalers mistakingly see Wesley as a #1 defender and fork over three first round picks. Of those three, the Bruins got Sergei Samsonov and Kyle McLaren as good NHLers.

1997: The Flyers sign C Chris Gratton from the Lightning. Tampa cannot pay the 9 million dollar signing bonus, so they decline to match. By the size of the contract, Tampa is entitled to four first round picks but Tampa GM Phil Esposito doesn't want to wait around for draft picks. So he (stupidly) instead settles for a package of Mikael Renberg and Karl Dykhuis. In his autobiography, he states that he got Rod Brind'Amour as part of the package (I don't believe him) but that ownership negotiated the deal.

1997: The Rangers sign C Joe Sakic from the Avs. Knowing that Colorado is in a tough financial spot at the time, the offer is frontloaded so that in the first year Sakic would receive 17 million. The Avs bite the bullet, match the offer, but are then forced to trade a few pricy vets like Mike Ricci.

1998: The Hurricanes sign C Sergei Fedorov from the Red Wings. The contract also offers a 12 million dollar bonus if Fedorov reaches the conference finals; Obviously meant as a deterrant for the defending Cup champs. Detroit opts to match the offer and ends up paying Fedorov in excess of 26 million that season for a little over 20 regular season games and the playoffs.

And that's was the last one. I think teams just realized that the Sakics/Fedorovs of the world wouldn't be let go, but secondary guys like Gratton/Wesley would. And those guys simply weren't worth multiple first rounders.

In the capped NHL, I wouldn't have been surprised to see a few offer sheets this offseason but it is a delicate dilemma for a lot of GMs. While Simon Gagne and Brian Gionta are great players, do you want to fork over 5+ million along with that many draft picks? Especially if you think they might hit unrestricted free agency next summer when you could sign him for comparable money without giving the draft picks.

[supahdon 0]

FYI:

GROUP 2 COMPENSATION CHART

OFFER SHEET COMPENSATION

$660,000 or below None

Over $660,000 to $1 million: Third Round

Over $1 million to $2.0 million: Second Round

Over $2.0 million to $3.0 million: First Round and Third Round

Over $3.0 million to $4.0 million: First Round, Second Round, and Third Round

Over $4.0 million to $5.0 million: Two First Rounds, Second Round, and Third Round

Over $5 million: Four First Rounds

[jon93 0]

http://www.philadelphiaflyers.com/pressbox/archive/2670.asp

theres a Q & A about it

clarke believes they wil sign him eventually

[kasparaitis 0]

Clarke is a genius! He's never at fault.

[Eazy_b97 1]

I can't remember if Vancouver matched, or Watter's got stopped in the process, but Toronto was (or did) offer Ohlund an offer sheet early in his career.

[Chadd 916]

Chicago signed Tkachuk to an offer sheet as well but Winnipeg/Phoenix matched.

[RadioGaGa 162]

That's the compensation they pay for signing a player from a teams Restricted list. That's why offers to big name RFA's is so rare. I believe the Rangers making offer to Fedorov a few years was the last (and, I think only) time it's happened.

Actually it was the Hurricanes that signed Fedorov to his offer sheet. And it wasn't the only one, as it was actually a more common practice years ago. The problem was that the original teams have the right to match, and a smart team would almost always match for a superstar.

Here's a quick and dirty summary of RFA offer sheets that I can remember off the top of my head (a lot involve the Blues):

1990: Blues sign D Scott Stevens from the Capitals. The Caps decide not to match and get 5 first round picks as compensation. Of the 5 picks, the only two that panned out were Sergei Gonchar and Brendan Witt.

1991: The Blues sign LW Brendan Shanahan from the Devils. The Devils opt not to match, but obviously cannot receive 5 first round picks since the Blues wouldn't have a pick again until 1996. This ends up going to arbitration. St. Louis' final offer is Curtis Joseph and Rod Brind'Amour. The Devils request Scott Stevens. Arbitrator rules in favor of New Jersey.

1993: The Blues sign C Petr Nedved from the Canucks. Again they don't have the draft picks to compensate, so an arbitrator gives Craig Janney to Vancouver. Janney refuses to go to Vancouver, so a couple weeks later, the Blues agree to send Jeff Brown, Bret Hedican, and Nathan Lafayette for Janney.

1994: The Whalers sign D Glen Wesley from the Bruins. The B's don't match. The Whalers mistakingly see Wesley as a #1 defender and fork over three first round picks. Of those three, the Bruins got Sergei Samsonov and Kyle McLaren as good NHLers.

1997: The Flyers sign C Chris Gratton from the Lightning. Tampa cannot pay the 9 million dollar signing bonus, so they decline to match. By the size of the contract, Tampa is entitled to four first round picks but Tampa GM Phil Esposito doesn't want to wait around for draft picks. So he (stupidly) instead settles for a package of Mikael Renberg and Karl Dykhuis. In his autobiography, he states that he got Rod Brind'Amour as part of the package (I don't believe him) but that ownership negotiated the deal.

1997: The Rangers sign C Joe Sakic from the Avs. Knowing that Colorado is in a tough financial spot at the time, the offer is frontloaded so that in the first year Sakic would receive 17 million. The Avs bite the bullet, match the offer, but are then forced to trade a few pricy vets like Mike Ricci.

1998: The Hurricanes sign C Sergei Fedorov from the Red Wings. The contract also offers a 12 million dollar bonus if Fedorov reaches the conference finals; Obviously meant as a deterrant for the defending Cup champs. Detroit opts to match the offer and ends up paying Fedorov in excess of 26 million that season for a little over 20 regular season games and the playoffs.

And that's was the last one. I think teams just realized that the Sakics/Fedorovs of the world wouldn't be let go, but secondary guys like Gratton/Wesley would. And those guys simply weren't worth multiple first rounders.

In the capped NHL, I wouldn't have been surprised to see a few offer sheets this offseason but it is a delicate dilemma for a lot of GMs. While Simon Gagne and Brian Gionta are great players, do you want to fork over 5+ million along with that many draft picks? Especially if you think they might hit unrestricted free agency next summer when you could sign him for comparable money without giving the draft picks.

touche!

(Am I using that right?)

[supahdon 0]

Yup, forgot about the Ohlund and Tkachuk offers. Still remember coming home from school and seeing that Sportscenter graphic with Tkachuk's mug next to the Blackhawks logo.

Like a lot of the offers, the money was frontloaded to try to scare teams from matching. Here's the AP article about Tkachuk from way back when:

KEITH TKACHUK became one of hockey's three highest-paid players this season when the Winnipeg Jets yesterday matched the Chicago Blackhawks' five-year, $17 million offer sheet to keep him. Tkachuk, who was a restricted free agent, will earn $6 million this season. Only WAYNE GRETZKY of the Los Angeles Kings ($6.545 million) has a higher base salary. MARK MESSIER of the Rangers has a base of $6 million but could earn more with incentives.

Tkachuk will earn $2.6 million, $2.8 million, $2.8 million and $3 million in the final four years. All the money is in United States dollars.

Winnipeg General Manager JOHN PADDOCK had said all along the team would match any offer that the 23-year-old Tkachuk received, and the Jets did just that only a few hours after the Blackhawks announced that they had signed Tkachuk.

------------

Ohlund was in a slightly different boat in that he had not played a single NHL game when he signed his offer with the Leafs. The Canucks were having difficulty signing him, and under terms of the previous CBA, teams apparently were able to send offers to Ohlund [perhaps because he was European and the Canucks didn't relinquish his rights after 2 years like CHL drafted prospects?].