Profiling/Radius for kids...

[Jordan 13]

This is my first post, but I have been enjoying this forum for some time.

Here is my question:

I saw the video showing what OTG was able to do to help Hockeymom's daughter with proper skate selection, fit and profiling. I found it to be very impressive. It got me thinking about my son.

He is a 6 year old, who is a very strong skater for his age and plays on a tier one select team. He currently skates on a youth sized (12.5 I think) pair of Vapor XXX's. Is profiling/radiusing something that can benefit someone at his age and ability ? Or, should he be adapting to and working with the stock set-up ?

One more question. How can the radius/profile be determined without watching him skate ? I have seen a number of places that do this, though I have no idea how successfully.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

First off the youth skates are all pretty much the same in style and construction.

The main diffrence is now the Easton and CCM/RBK top line skates all have stainless blades on them. That helps kids like your son who are playing a fair bit and would like to maintain the profile on the skates.

The CCM/RBK come with an 11ft radius on the youth as do the next years Eastons. This will help with stability being a smaller player. I personally would put a longer profile on because it just does that make them more stable. As they increase in talent you can then play with it. If you watch most little kids with youth skates that are good they either have a oversized pair of bauers (because the toe is narrower and they need the extra room) or a pair of CCM/RBK and these kids with more blade on the ice are the fastest skaters.

What does drive me up the wall is the kids with the laces wrapped around the ankle and the tongue sticking out in front of the over sized shin pad. This makes the skate very loose in the ankle and does nothing to improve the skating. I or suggested this to a coach one day as there bench is besdie where you exit our dressing room and his answer (there parents do the kids skates its not my problem) hummm I thought coaches were supposed to educate not just open and close the door.........

anyway my 2 cents

[sk8 0]

I have a 7 year old in RBK 9k's that also plays at a very competitive level. He plays center forward and skates 5 days per week. The stainless steel on the RBK 9k's are nice. What would be your recommendation for a radius then on this skate if the out of box is 11ft.

Thank you

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

I would leave it at that. The speed he can get is the key. Plus the runner itself is usually a tad smaller than most of the senior skates and the toe and heel are rounded a bit from the factory so it should be good. As they are sharpened the profile does get less and once he starts falling to easily time to put the profile back on.

[jimmy 194]

He is a 6 year old, who is a very strong skater for his age and plays on a tier one select team. He currently skates on a youth sized (12.5 I think) pair of Vapor XXX's. Is profiling/radiusing something that can benefit someone at his age and ability ? Or, should he be adapting to and working with the stock set-up ?

One more question. How can the radius/profile be determined without watching him skate ? I have seen a number of places that do this, though I have no idea how successfully.

Youth skate's radius are basically configured for a beginner skater, longer radius for stability and not much pitch. Plus, how exact is the stock set-up from left skate to right? If your son is "advanced" as you say, he can certainly benefit from a profiling. A shorter radius can improve turning arc radius and agility, and some forward pitch can improve balance, skating stance, starts and stride. One does not need to look at a video of a skater to determine a profile. Your skate shop can do an evaluation by interview/questioning the skater or parent. Video's are nice, but not always practical. Was the video shot when skater was tired/lazy, that can reveal a whole differt posture/stride. No method is perfect. Best method is trial and adjustment..then fine tuning. You don't want someone to "adapt" to a stock set-up, that only makes them develop bad habits/compensate. It doesn't cost much to have a skate profiled, so why not offer your kids a custom grind? I see so many parents buying their kids $150 composite sticks that will do nothing for their game, but refuse or ignore to spend little on what a proper sharpening and radius (and feathering/shaving)can provide.

[hockeymom 2]

He is a 6 year old, who is a very strong skater for his age and plays on a tier one select team.

One more question. How can the radius/profile be determined without watching him skate ? I have seen a number of places that do this, though I have no idea how successfully.

If your son is "advanced" as you say, he can certainly benefit from a profiling.

One does not need to look at a video of a skater to determine a profile. Your skate shop can do an evaluation by interview/questioning the skater or parent. Video's are nice, but not always practical. Was the video shot when skater was tired/lazy, that can reveal a whole differt posture/stride. No method is perfect.

Best method is trial and adjustment..then fine tuning. You don't want someone to "adapt" to a stock set-up, that only makes them develop bad habits/compensate.

jimmy, with all due respect, part of your response is utter hogwash - especially when dealing with kids and/or parents who may have limited knowledge.

There clearly IS a difference between filling out a questionaire and actually watching someone skate. A big difference.

And there is a difference between a person who knows how to profile skates and a person who understands the biomechanics of skating as well as profiling. Having spoken with many people who profile skates, there is a considerable variance in knowledge level... even in a large market like Toronto.

Kids and even teenagers (some adults too) do not have the experience or the vocabulary to be able to identify problems and describe what is working/not working. Especially when a profile may, initially, feel very "weird" to them.

People also have difficulty addressing what exactly "advanced" is... and it certainly doesn't necessarily get at what their issues are. Perhaps they were tired when they filled out the questionaire, now that would really throw things out of whack, wouldn't it!!!

The BEST scenario, quite frankly, would be to have someone watch them skate live. Both in practice and in a game situation. And preferably this person would have depth knowledge of skates, skating and bio-mechanics. This isn't practical (or affordable) for most people.

The NEXT BEST situation would be to video-tape the skater - and also in both a practice and game situation. The reason for the game situation is that the player will "forget" about trying to skate well, and just skate how they skate... so the issues will quickly become apparent. This makes it very easy for a skilled profiler to assess what can and needs to be done.

The ABSOLUTE WEAKEST method would be to work with a questionaire. Especially when working with people who have limited knowledge of skating, profiling and bio-mechanics. It really IS reduced to trial and error then. How in the world people with limited knowledge can assess the work and determine what additional adjustments need to be made is beyond me.

[jimmy 194]

hockeymom,

You are correct in a sense, but it usually isn't PRACTICAL/cost effective for the profiler to watch the skater, or to create accurate videos, so for most people another evaluation method must be used. If the right questions are asked by an experienced evaluator, then the correct profile can be determined.

As with any profession if the person doing the work is not experienced, (including the guy watching the video), then results may vary.

BTW, a changed profile will almot always feel 'wierd" to a skater until their bio-mechanics adapt. This is normal.

And lastly, we'll have to disagree... trial and error IS the absolute the best way. Until you try something you have no clue whether you like it better, or if results are better or worse. Just like stick curves and lies, one must experiment with many to find the optimum one. The key to trial and error is to get as close to the median and make adjustments from there. That's where your experienced profiler/evaluator comes into play.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

I would leave it at that. The speed he can get is the key. Plus the runner itself is usually a tad smaller than most of the senior skates and the toe and heel are rounded a bit from the factory so it should be good. As they are sharpened the profile does get less and once he starts falling to easily time to put the profile back on.

Ok let me add....after he has skated and you now know what he is on and that the stock profile is been enhanced with a good sharpening that has made both blades even then you can go to a good sharpener/profiling person to enhance this stock profile by either making it smaller or larger if needed.

But seeing as I spend my days in the store and the nights at the rink doing just that watching people skate checking there profile and adjusting I am thinking it is as pointed out the best overall way and cant be done for everyone.

A good question answer session with a customer about them selves and doing trial and error is good in the fact that the customer learns what is good and what is bad.

However if you talked prior to profiling and explain what is on the skate and what you should expect the customer then can come back with some good detail.

Now you add video to that as the ONE90 Profiling video shows that is exactley what has been done.

Now that being said all we did was eliminate some of the trial and error.

Jimmy if your as good as everyone says you should welcome the benifit of the video and not knock what can enhance a good technical person.

[hockeymom 2]

hockeymom,

You are correct in a sense, but it usually isn't PRACTICAL/cost effective for the profiler to watch the skater, or to create accurate videos, so for most people another evaluation method must be used.

In today's world jimmy, videos are very easy and cost effective to make and view. That makes them a VERY PRACTICAL tool.

If the right questions are asked by an experienced evaluator, then the correct profile can be determined.

I believe I actually came across the questionaire you use in your business a while back... I collected a bunch of them when I was researching profiling and have yet to find a questionaire that goes much beyond height, weight and position. But, ignoring the inadequacies of questionaires, more to the point, the ANSWERS are often inadequate. Simply because the person needing the profile doesn't have enough knowledge. Therefore, IF the profiler has sufficient knowledge of skating and bio-mechanics... using a video eliminates the problem of inadequate responses. But I agree with you that I have found few profilers who have this depth of knowledge.

BTW, a changed profile will almot always feel 'wierd" to a skater until their bio-mechanics adapt. This is normal.

I believe this WAS my point... and people (the skater or the parents) with limited knowledge have little means of assessing this. It is ALSO truly scarey how many profilers have limited knowledge of bio-mechanics.

And lastly, we'll have to disagree... trial and error IS the absolute the best way.

Well, I know you are an admirer of Professor Lockwood's research with Maximum Edge. Infact, I believe you still have the video on your website, don't you? They didn't use trial and error... and they didn't just use questionaires.

You do NOT use the Maximum Edge method and you ONLY use questionaires.... but you have this video on your web site. Kind of misleading isn't it?

I truly believe my original post outlines the the best scenarios and provides the best opportunity for a successful profile. Of course some further adjustment and refinements is likely to happen. But I wouldn't call THAT process "trial and error". In my daughter's case it wasn't necessary... because she got the correct profile for her abilities (and more importantly, for her challenges) the first time right out of the gate.

I don't believe even the most skilled profiler/evaluator on the face of the planet would have been able to do that without having the benefit of seeing her skate.

[sk8 0]

This post is rather amusing and I think all of you make sense. I think the question comes down to the extent at which an experienced skate guru can impact the skating performance of an individual by customizing a profile to a skater. If you can honestly answer that it does provide a benefit (not a miracle)you have something and you should charge for the services. For example, an onsite evaluation is x dollars, a video analysis is y, and a questionaire is z.

I can tell you that as a parent of a hockey player I am never even asked about profiles. Most of the time it is a kid sharpening the skate at a rink and even at some LHS which do a good job of sharpening the type of analyis you are discussing is non existent or not communicated to the customer. In the states hockey is an expensive sport with rink times, clinics, camps, private lessons & travel. All this expense to build a better player. If somehting like this customized service would help not only would I pay for the service but I would be more than willing to make my flight arrangements ASAP.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

Well just did the Danish Womens National Team.....after there first game winning 2 to 0 then did there skates and they won 14 to 1...now the second team wasnt as good as the first I will update the score of the 3rd game and that will tell the true test of the job done.

[SherSports 0]

Just wondering if you guys would share the type of equipment (blademaster, cagone or other) that you use to profile?

JR & OTG ?

Jimmy I looked at your site it appears you use a Cagone machine or something similar.

Thanks in advance.

[JR Boucicaut 3810]

I use Blackstone Tri-Lie.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

Well I use all of the above but I really like for profiling either the older blademaster system with the Profile marking tower or the Blackstone witht he Blademaster Profle tower.

Blackstone and Blademaster are both going to come out with some funky new bars like a 9-10 a 9.5-10.5 and i want a 9-11.

As for the girls won 5-3 and the one kid got a full ride to Niagra U next year. To bad for the guys there she will break someones heart...very good looking lady.

[pat19 0]

off topic but why don't they use titanium for runners? wouldn't it be stronger, lighter, and not need to be sharpened as often? is it just too expensive?

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

They used to and they didnt work out.

Cant remeber the whole reason i am sure the cost would be out of this world.

[Jordan 13]

OTG...PM in your inbox.

[JR Boucicaut 3810]

The blade wasn't full titanium - the edges were. I don't remember the exact makeup but you did not have to hone them. I still see some from time to time.