Alignment issues with mounted frames

[trox_355 0]

After having my skates with Sprung frames mounted to a Tacks boot for a while, I finally got the chance to give them a serious workout.

The only problem, everything I've read about converted ice skates, these don't really feel like I'd expect. I mounted them myself using the instructions included with the frames and using tee-nuts and screws. I first thought I mounted them off-center, but took them off and re-measured just to make sure.

Biggest problem: my ankles keep rolling inward...I mean, really inward. To get the wheels perpendicular to the ground, I have to flex my ankles all the way out. I swapped the Superfeet insoles from my ice skates into these and saw a little improvement, but am still having pretty much the same issues. There's almost no wear on the outside of the wheels, too.

I almost feel like I'm trying to skate again for the very first time. Trying to make a tight cut is next to impossible, crossovers feel *really* off, and I'm finding it really hard to even roll on one foot. I'm not playing roller hockey in these so it's mainly on smooth asphalt and concrete surfaces.

So, what do you think I should do? I'm thinking I could take them into a shop and get them riveted, but if they'd keep the same mount points, I'd be in the same situation.

[tryandstopme 35]

throw some detailed pics of your skates on this thread and i think you'll get alot more educated opinions on whether or not they are improperly aligned.

[inlnfn 0]

Could you post some pictures of the toe and heel from above ? I had the same problem because the outsole and where my foot actually sat were off. Is this on both skates?

[DangleSpud 0]

Sounds like they may be mounted a little to the outside of the sole. I typically mount mine in what some shops call a "pro-offset". This means that the front wheel on each skate is slightly inward. I agree with the above, pics would help.

[Aussie Joe 0]

Possibly poor fitting skates, but I agree pics would help.

[trox_355 0]

Alright. Pics taken and posted. Let me know if you need any other angles.

Left skate, bottom-up of wheels.

Left skate, close in of toe showing original mount holes and centerline mark.

Thanks!

[gokings55 0]

Alright. Pics taken and posted. Let me know if you need any other angles.

Left skate, bottom-up of wheels.

Left skate, close in of heel showing original mount holes and centerline mark.

Thanks!

They don't look bad enough to cause what you describe. BTW where did you get the mounting hardware?

[Ultimus 0]

How about a top down view? Of both skates?

Alright. Pics taken and posted. Let me know if you need any other angles.

Left skate, bottom-up of wheels.

Left skate, close in of heel showing original mount holes and centerline mark.

Thanks!

[trox_355 0]

I'll get the top-down pictures posted shortly.

They don't look bad enough to cause what you describe. BTW where did you get the mounting hardware?

The Home Depot

[inlnfn 0]

If I had to guess I would say the chassis needs to move in about an 1/8" on the heel this will angle the chassis back out. Both sets of my sprung chassis needed to be mounted right on the inside edge of the heel.

I also needed to cut off part of the base of the t-nut to fit properly.

On your second picture is that the toe or heel and did the rear sole plates come with six mounting holes ?

[#96 0]

Doesn't look like a bad self-mount. Are you sure you have the right sized frame? The pics you provided don't really show enough I don't think. The toe are picture looks like it might too far back in th heel (not enough chassis under the forefoot) but this contradicts your complaint that your ankle is giving way. As far as centered, they look pretty close to me.

[Sprungster 5]

They look dead on. Are the boots possibly a bit wide for you? Have the eyelets closed down on your foot so it can't slide to the inside? That's the only thing I can think of cause it's happened to me before. I actually thought I'd mounted the frames loose or had broken the mount somehow. Boots were too wide.

Looks like a great mount job. What a pain in the butt.

[stevoc 0]

The Home Depot

That's an awesome job you did there.

Would mind telling us what exactly you bought?

Are there nuts on the inside of your skates? If so, do you feel them when your feet are in the boots?

[trox_355 0]

I'm still working on getting more pics up. I'm in between classes right now, but at least can grace the board with my written presence (yeah, right).

On your second picture is that the toe or heel and did the rear sole plates come with six mounting holes ?

It's the toe. I changed my original post. I don't know how I missed that <slaps forehead>

Are you sure you have the right sized frame?

They're size 10 boots, so they're at the upper end but are within limits.

They look dead on. Are the boots possibly a bit wide for you? Have the eyelets closed down on your foot so it can't slide to the inside? That's the only thing I can think of cause it's happened to me before. I actually thought I'd mounted the frames loose or had broken the mount somehow. Boots were too wide.

The boots definitely aren't too wide. If anything, they feel too narrow. I have the same measurements (10D) in my Vector ice skates, and I always thought that the Vectors were supposed to fit narrower than the Tacks. I tried breaking them in a bit before I took the ice holders off by wearing them around the house a bit.

Would mind telling us what exactly you bought?

Are there nuts on the inside of your skates? If so, do you feel them when your feet are in the boots?

I got zinc-plated #6-32 tee nuts. I tried looking for stainless models, but nobody (Home Depot, Lowes, Fastenal, Intenet) had them or was able to get them. The washers are regular stainless cut washers. The screws are stainless button head hex screws. I don't remember what length I used, but the heel took longer screws than the toe. It sounds like what inlnfn did, I had to do too, in that I snipped off the "teeth" on the tee nuts so they wouldn't dig into the sole plate as much, possibly cracking it. With the insoles, I really can't feel anything. When the nuts are flush, there's not much difference between the thickness of them and regular rivets.

Doesn't look like a bad self-mount.

Looks like a great mount job. What a pain in the butt.

That's an awesome job you did there.

Thank you.

[Aussie Joe 0]

It's possible (but highly unlikely) that you broke something in the boot's support regions when you mounted these. This sounds like what I have when I strap on my old Bauer T4's/Nike Roller Daddy's, just a general break down of the support materials placed inside the boots during construction, which are there to support your achiles upwards.

Eitherway the current set up is useless, get them assessd (and if possible fixed) at your best LHS. If that fails, get a new pair of boots and try a different make/model etc this time if you decide to go down this path. Get fitted by your LHS to ensure this sort of thing cannot happen again.

[trox_355 0]

It's possible (but highly unlikely) that you broke something in the boot's support regions when you mounted these. This sounds like what I have when I strap on my old Bauer T4's/Nike Roller Daddy's, just a general break down of the support materials placed inside the boots during construction, which are there to support your achiles upwards.

Eitherway the current set up is useless, get them assessd (and if possible fixed) at your best LHS. If that fails, get a new pair of boots and try a different make/model etc this time if you decide to go down this path. Get fitted by your LHS to ensure this sort of thing cannot happen again.

If these pictures don't indicate anything different, I'll probably go that route. I used Keith's (Sprungster) instructions in mounting the frames, so unless I was misreading the measuring tape, there shouldn't be a big difference between my stuff and the dozens of other mount jobs I've seen. After spending a long time measuring and re-measuring the boots before doing any drilling, I'm not ready to think that I did it wrong. However if anybody sees anything, be sure to tell me I'm full of it.

Between school, work and actually trying to play hockey, I finally got around to getting these other pictures taken and posted.

Left Skate

Left Toe

Left Heel

Right Skate

Right Toe

Right Heel

Also, someone asked about the mounting:

Inside boot mounting hardware.

Thanks, all for the help!

--Pete

[Rick 0]

Trox 355,

I am not an expert but to me it looks like your frames are mounted a little to far to the outside of the center line of the outsole. On the (LEFT) skate. It also looks like the frame may be angled slightly to the outside at the toe of the left skate. The (right) skate toe looks pretty good but the heel looks a little far to the inside of the center line. I would think that that mounting would cause your (LEFT) ankle to roll because your body weight would be centered toward the inner edge of the chassis. The (RIGHT) mounting may cause your ankle to roll because your body weight would be centered above the outside edge of the chassis at the heel of the (RIGHT) skate. I would also think that as you skated in a straight line your left skate would have a tendancy to roll/pull to the left of a straight line. The right skate may have the same effect and roll/pull to the left of a straight line.

Like I said I am not an expert and I may be wrong but that is what I noticed.

Rick Henry

[iceburg19 1]

looking at the left toe picture.the wheel doesnt look centered.

[DangleSpud 0]

I agree, the left toe is outward for sure. I have mounted three pairs of Sprungs so far as well as many other frames and found that a slight offset toward the instep to feel the best.

[iceburg19 1]

if this was my skate.to fix the problem,i would pull the frame off.use a two part epoxy to fill the holes,(fill them in real good)and then start over.center line down the middle toe to heel. imagine splitting the boot in half.check twice before drilling.remount.middle of the boot to the middle of the frame.dont forget 1/4in back.on the bottom of the boot your making a cross with your lines.all centered.with the cross line 1/4in back.good luck .hope it works out.

[trox_355 0]

I keep hearing what everybody's saying, and just keep shaking my head.

I took off the frame from the left skate and used some baling twine to wrap lengthwise around the boot to try and visually bisect it (it's weird to visualize, I'll try and post pictures). Since I never took off the Sharpie marks from the sole, I noticed that the twine still *goes over the same lines* I used to measure and mount the frame the first time.

I know you can't drill the sole too many times before you start to lose structure to the boot, so I'm getting real close to calling this a lesson learned and taking it into a LHS so I can blame them when my foot falls over again.

Whaddya think?

[iceburg19 1]

my eyes are looking at the left toe picture like this. looking down the right side of your wheel, should be the middle of you skate.get what im saying.go to the wheel look at the right side of the wheel and draw a line up to the toe box of the skate.

[MDE3 0]

Have you tried to hold the skate and flex the chassis with the other hand to see if the mounting hardware is pulling free?(laterally)

I have mounted a lot of chassis (maybe 25 - 30 sets) using those types of of nuts and screws so I can tell you that you really have to pull down hard on those to make them tight...

When I did mine the "T-nuts" were actually pulled down slightly into the leather/carboard insole(not sure what that undersole material is on your skates)before they were tight enough. Also I usually needed to grind off one side of the T-Nut for the inner heel mounts, because the flange of the nut would usually hit the inner sidewall of the boot before it actaully engaged the undersole. This could make the nut feel tight, but it is not actually pulled down all the way and will allow the chassis to pull free from the skate sole under load.

You said you snipped off the tines under the head of the T-Nuts, but did you grind them completely flush?..because if you did not, the center of the nut may not be tight enough against the insole, and could flex under load allowing the chassis to pull away slightly from the boot under sideload.

...Sometimes I had to use a shorter screw or grind it off a bit, because it would project into the skate through the T-nut when you got them really tight. Remember that the material in the undersole can compress quite a bit...

I used to use 5/8" screws on the front or 1/2" sometimes depending on the skate, and 5/8" to 7/8' on the heel depending on which position it was in. Sometimes I would have to swap out the 7/8" for a 3/4" or a 3/4" for a 5/8" so they would not stick through the nuts into the skate once I got them all tight.

One thing I can tell you though is that any minor chassis offset you may have from the centerline of the boot(based on your photos it looks like a pretty good job centering the chassis), is not significant enough to cause the extreme reaction you are feeling..It might make your skating stride feel a bit different than you are used to or like, but it will not cause the symptoms you describe...

I would be 90% sure that what you are describing is caused by the inner edge of the chassis pulling away from the bootsole under load...I missed a few centerlines on my own skates and my son's a few times, and they never caused what you describe...but loose bolts would, or the innersole breaking loose from the skate boot.

Just some things to look at before you go repositioning the mountings.

[trox_355 0]

my eyes are looking at the left toe picture like this. looking down the right side of your wheel, should be the middle of you skate.get what im saying.go to the wheel look at the right side of the wheel and draw a line up to the toe box of the skate.

I think I'm getting there. The left skate was the one I took the chassis off to make sure everything was lined up.

Have you tried to hold the skate and flex the chassis with the other hand to see if the mounting hardware is pulling free?(laterally)

I have mounted a lot of chassis (maybe 25 - 30 sets) using those types of of nuts and screws so I can tell you that you really have to pull down hard on those to make them tight...

I'm sure I tightened the bolts down...at least I'd like to think I did <goes to make a Hulk Hogan pose in a mirror>. I did try and flex the chassis on the right skate as you mentioned, but nothing seems to be moving.

When I did mine the "T-nuts" were actually pulled down slightly into the leather/carboard insole(not sure what that undersole material is on your skates)before they were tight enough. Also I usually needed to grind off one side of the T-Nut for the inner heel mounts, because the flange of the nut would usually hit the inner sidewall of the boot before it actaully engaged the undersole. This could make the nut feel tight, but it is not actually pulled down all the way and will allow the chassis to pull free from the skate sole under load.

You said you snipped off the tines under the head of the T-Nuts, but did you grind them completely flush?..because if you did not, the center of the nut may not be tight enough against the insole, and could flex under load allowing the chassis to pull away slightly from the boot under sideload.

...Sometimes I had to use a shorter screw or grind it off a bit, because it would project into the skate through the T-nut when you got them really tight. Remember that the material in the undersole can compress quite a bit...

I used to use 5/8" screws on the front or 1/2" sometimes depending on the skate, and 5/8" to 7/8' on the heel depending on which position it was in. Sometimes I would have to swap out the 7/8" for a 3/4" or a 3/4" for a 5/8" so they would not stick through the nuts into the skate once I got them all tight.

I left just a sliver of the tooth on each nut to prevent them from spinning on the plastic sole when I tightened them down hard. I unscrewed and rescrewed each bolt a number of times in the mounting process and after taking the frame of the left boot this time, all of the nuts are still embedded in the sole, even with a good bit of shaking.

The 1/2" bolts I used on the toe are just at the right length to get at least several threads into the nut. The 3/4" bolts on the heel come close to being flush with the top of the nut, but are still at least a couple of threads from being there. When finalizing the mount, I used some blue threadlocker and really cranked down on the bolts to make sure everything was seated.

One thing I can tell you though is that any minor chassis offset you may have from the centerline of the boot(based on your photos it looks like a pretty good job centering the chassis), is not significant enough to cause the extreme reaction you are feeling..It might make your skating stride feel a bit different than you are used to or like, but it will not cause the symptoms you describe...

I would be 90% sure that what you are describing is caused by the inner edge of the chassis pulling away from the bootsole under load...I missed a few centerlines on my own skates and my son's a few times, and they never caused what you describe...but loose bolts would, or the innersole breaking loose from the skate boot.

Just some things to look at before you go repositioning the mountings.

I'm really not sure at this point. In the immortal words of my Grampa: "Stop talking about it and do something with it." I might head to the LHS this weekend.

I really thank y'all with your help in this.