Why did Bauer stop making high end skates?

[KennyWu 23]

New member. :)

I'm a Bauer guy since the 80s while rotating in Micron 10-90 AIRs during the early 90s. I recently used a pair of late model Nike Zoom-Airs in roller hockey and promptly sprained my ankle. My first leg injury in 20 years (i'm 25) so I blame Nike. My friend ironically sprained his ankle with the same model earlier int he year.

I went back to my old Bauer Vapor blades and although they are alright, it just doesn't feel right. They are a few years old so the stiffness seems to be gone too. Any recommendations? I've searched this site while waiting for my account to validate:

1) Mission Wicked 1s: I can't find a pair in my area to try and I live in Toronto, the hockey hot bed. How are they in comparison to the old school Bauer Supremses (3000s, 4000s). I only play twice a week so i'm worried the break in process will take two long.

2) Mission HE10000: 06' model, is it really that bad with the chassis?

3) Mission Wicked 5s: Seems like good value.

Which one is the most similar to Bauer?

[Jim A 4]

Roller hockey is a small overall faction of a company's gross sales...most of them are likely in the sport so they don't lose marketshare in ice to people who have used products playing roller...

i'd say quite a few people just convert ice skates nowadays..i've done just that with my Flexlite 12's...i had skated on the 2090/3090 models which are redesigned vapor's ...but wanted to have no change between ice/roller in the general fit and feel..

high end inline skates make up a very small percentage of sales

[TheSnake22 0]

i convert my skates too from ice, rbk 8k's, ccm vector pro's, rbk 9k's, so the real question is then why the hell is it so hard to find a decent frame? Why didn't red star just stop making wheels and stick with making amazing frames? The only companies that even sells frames on their own are sprung and tour, and they both retail for over 120 dollars. Sucks for us i guess... glad i have some spare e-frames right now...

[KennyWu 23]

Do you just install the frames yourself? So it doesn't get too hot without the vents on the toe?

[TheSnake22 0]

i know people that can put them on for me... vents too more to lower the weight of the skate than they do to cool off your foot... feet sweat no matter what. i've never noticed a difference between inlines boots and ice boots...

correct me if im wrong but i dont see vents on any of the mission boots as of late...

[DamnLocust 0]

not on tours, either.

[KennyWu 23]

Hmm, good point with the vents. I'm guessing only the older models had them. I found the vents to be marginally useful, at least psychologically when you could feel the breeze coming in but yeah, sweat is part of hockey. :lol:

[Jim A 4]

Redstar had to stop making frames, they were violating the Mission patent on the hi-lo...

[TheSnake22 0]

true i forgot about that... but the nbh one-up has a way around it and they still work with a 72/80 setup... with a little creativity i think they could have still put out a product slightly different to what mission has and superior to any other stand alone frames...

[sdcopp 1]

NikeBauer has a better legal department then?

As for the question at hand, it wasn't profitable for Bauer to continue trying to compete in the marketplace. Mission and Tour have been the big two for roller the way Bauer and CCM have been for ice. The RBK brand is hot right now, with arguably the best player as their posterboy. Add to that that RBK/CCM has been trying more and more over the last several years to edge their way back into roller and you have three companies producing top notch, established products to compete against for Bauer who's focus and strength is ice. Why sink R&D into it when they are only assured a small piece of the market, when they can instead rebadge low end ice boots for much less and have some presence in the marketplace to earn off of name recognition alone?

[TheSnake22 0]

they weren't putting anymore money into reserch when the released their hi-ho silvers, they just used a better ice boot. it has nothing to do with R&D. instead of taking their second best boot like they used to, now they take their fourth best boot. it wouldn't take that much for them to make a better skate, they've just decided it's not cost effective and they don't want to compete for a market share. and you can't possibly say that ccm/rbk put out top notch established products, they're only on their second good line of skates, and mission and tour far surpass them in both reaserch and contribution to inline hockey. nbh could easily do as well or better than ccm/rbk in the inline market if they had the desire to do so, but it's hard to say if it would be worth it to them financially. i guess they've decided that it's not.

[sdcopp 1]

CCM has put out a good top notch product for the last few years starting with the Outcasts/Externo line (2003). Those (notoriously bad bearings aside) were as much an equal to the top Tour and Mission of those years. The PF10 was also a great skate that competed the last couple of years. While I dislike CCM/RBK for atrocious customer service, the products are good and do compete. I think the RBK line is a bit pricey for the features, just because of the pump system. CCM re-engineered the chassis they use to compete, R&D time and money there. Sure they aren't offering a full blown roller specific line-up, Only Tour truly does that since they really have no ice presence. Mission offers crossover gear (shins, elbows, etc), which is the smart way of doing it.

NBH found a legal loophole and put it on marginal ice boots. Instead of innovating anything, they keep enough product in the marketplace to soak up money on name recognition only. Zero R&D in any sense rather than find anyway to improve their product.

And as Justin stated in another thread, Tour has lost market to CCM/RBK. He should know, it's his competition to deal with. Remember, RBK is the hot brand right now in many segments, particularly with Sidney Crosby wearing it. Until names like Kirk French and CJ Yoder are spoken in reverence amongst inline players the way Sid the Kid and AO are for ice guys, whatever the top NHL guys are in is it. Sidney Crosby in RBK, AO in CCM, seems like a hell of a marketing plan to me, regardless of ice or inline since they are the premier guys for hockey in general and way too many people spend money on their idols and not their own needs.

edit: to be fair though, CCM/RBK isn't using higher end aluminum on any chassis outside of the two top models, which does give them a negative mark in the R&D column

[TheSnake22 0]

Agree to disagree about the externo line of skates, they're bricks with wheels on them if you ask me. mission was pretty far superior to them at that point and tour was at least even and moving forward. i agree that their last 2 lines, the PF's and the Vectors, are quality product, i just dont think that you can say they have a reputation yet as an established company in the roller community yet... they obviously take advantage of their ice hockey popularity well, but it wont last forever if they dont have some semblance of innovation.i skated in pf's and while they're a good skate performance wise, they are by no means great. the entire pf line was not made for inline and they break down very quickly. I'm not saying that they don't or can't compete, i'm saying that they aren't putting a large scale effort into their product and it wouldnt take all that much to compete with them if you put out a product of equal or better quality, which isn't that far-fetched. Oh, and the tri-di chassis is no good no matter what material you make it out of. It's a very slow set-up that goes in the opposite direction of the current trend of frames. that's my opinion from skating on them for the past 2 years, thank goodness i found some better frames at a decent price...

[Jim A 4]

sdcopp - you know how much every company sinks into R&D? enlighten us please..

unfortunately the only companies to have stuck with inline each year every year are Mission/Tour....CCM has been back since 04 or so ..but prior to that left the market after the Externo's tanked.....NBH has released a steady line since the hi/ho's and then 20-/30- series...

most people who buy a new complete skate do it for 249 or less...so that's where the market is for most groups..i think you guys would be amazed to see the amount of actual high end skate purchases (complete) in the sport..

[sdcopp 1]

Jim, there's a huge difference between paying a legal team to find a loophole to exploit, and paying people to engineer a product. It's not hard to figure out which one is R&D money invested, especially in a scramble the way the inline industry was to get product to market without violating patent laws a few years ago.

As far as the Externos go, I had Outcasts that killed my feet, but were on par weightwise and far stiffer than the DNA series of the time period, providing a competitive product to Mission at the time while Tour went with their strength of out of box comfort on a brick of a skateline with the new Hummer chassis. Nexed was my personal choice at that point because the Stinger skate had it all for me. Mission didn't hit the superlight skates until the first Helium series, at which point the PF line was there and Tour was still plugging away with the Beemer as a very heavy choice. Now we're in the weight war that ice has had for sometime. Bauer, since the Hi-Hos/initial Mega line has not put out anything above a mid end skate and really sinks no money into the sport of inline.

Snake, how is CCM NOT an established product line? While inline purists were very wary of possible quality issues, CCM made a big push to get back into the marketplace with the Externo line, which is a quality line that I still see plenty of players in who don't turn over gear every 6-12 months, and got their product on a few top Narch teams that year to really get some coverage. I believe the older mens division that year was won by the CCM Old Hosers, in the obnoxious Blue Green color scheme. Maybe it's because Tacks were popular along with Bauer Supremes about ten yrs ago when we had no choice but to build our skates a piece at a time. CCM has been looming right along with Bauer in inline since the beginning of Tour and Mission taking over. The last 4 yrs have seen them push and push to get more marketshare, and it's working.

[TheSnake22 0]

you keep talking like people wore the externo line of skates... no one wore the externo ice skates because they sucked, and the same can be said for the inline version... and you're totally missing my point about the market share. i am fully aware that ccm/rbk have a niche of their own, i am pointing out that they did it with little to no effort whatsoever. no research, no innovation, and hardly and marketing... if nbh took a good ice boot, put on their same crappy frame, and put in an ounce of effort, they could have the same results that ccm/rbk have had. the hi-ho's that nike made we're arguably better than any skate ccm/rbk have put out to date with the possible exception of the 8k pump skate... the last 4 years have not seem ccm push to do anything because they haven't done any pushing at all... do you see any ccm or rbk pro teams at nationals? not yet you dont...

[sdcopp 1]

I will whole heartedly agree that the top teams aren't in CCM/RBK gear. Mission and Tour have had the top players for some time because they have stuck it out, which I am thankful for since they have been the driving companies for this sport for the last decade.

The Hi-Ho's were the last real good line NBH made, but you're acting like people wore those anymore than CCM Externo lines, regional difference is my guess.

If Bauer had put some effort into it, you're dead on, they could be making fantastic products. They aren't. They produce a fragmented product line based on several low end ice boots. Mission, Tour and CCM/RBK bring to market single, cohesive lines that range from entry level to pro level. Mission is technically doing 2 distinct lines this year with a lower line of Heliums and the upper line of Wickeds. If you look at the companies that have been very pro-inline hockey manufacturing, that's a huge key. The three above product roller specific gear like pants. NBH has made no effort on any of these fronts. It requires R&D people working with marketing to discern the differences in build, materials, etc. in each skate of a line appropriate to price points. There is also a need for someone to design things like pants for functionality as well as looks.

While we could argue the merits of the design of the Tri-Di, it's about as good as any other frame out there, and driven entirely by personal preference. It follows the step design of the Hi-Lo without violating the patent or being terribly different in feel. Other than the Magnesium Alloy frame from the PF10's though, the rest were horrible material-wise.

[TheSnake22 0]

Well we're getting closer... i would definitely say that more people were wearing hi-ho's, but like i said, agree to disagree... and thats what i've been trying to say about NBH the whole time, i know they aren't giving any effort, but like you said, they certainly could be making a good skate. Nike did make roller specific gear such as pants for a while, but obviously they aren't any more... we'll argue about tri-di's some other time but like you said, anything but the pf10 frame bent like crazy...

[sdcopp 1]

I just find it really unfortunate that they don't, and could. I could be quoted several times on various threads that I think competition in the products is good. The unfortunate economics of it is, only the strong who grow big enough survive. NBH could compete, and could take marketshare on name alone. They don't care enough to do it though. CCM/RBK does care enough to push out a full line, so while I don't respect their customer service practices and don't think they have it down yet, they are getting there. I'm a Mission guy through and through, but only having two companies contending for anything will make product stagnation more frequent, as with any line of business. I want someone making Justin push the envelope on new products for people like me. Someonehad to bring Tour around to fit not being everything, weight does matter too when you compare bricks to feathers figuratively.

[Joker518 0]

sdcopp, agreed, its too bad that NBH doesn't make these high end models because the potential for a really nice Vapor inline has never really be met in my opinion... Its as Jim stated before in this thread, most skates are bought at the $250 and lower price point and thats where NikeBauer is securely setting their sights. I just wish they had a full lineup, like you said instead of a mediocre supreme skate, a mediocre vapor skate, a mediocre mega skate and a mediocre flexlite.

[Jim A 4]

they nearly had a limited run XXX with a Red Star prior to NARCh Finals one year..but the price tag on it is pretty ridiculous..plus most people who want to have an XX/XXX etc as their roller boot..do just that..if there was a market for it...they would be there..

[Joker518 0]

Yea, especially if the profit margins are the same for the skates they are making now versus something higher end. Not worth the investment, I guess