Jagr Not in Shootout Again

[Vapor 0]

So you are telling me that you would call gretz a pure goal scorer? Bullshit, he is a playmaker. He had 2x the amount of assists that he had goals. A goal scorer is somebody who gets setup and has a great shot (like I said, Bure, Ovechkin) Goal scorers care about goals and only goals. I never said playmakers cannot score. Most good playmakers do put the puck in the net, a lot. Sometimes they make plays all by themselves. I stand by the statement that he is not a goal scorer. Gretz even said that he is not a goalscorer, he is a playmaker... but you would know.

[MDE3 0]

So you are telling me that you would call gretz a pure goal scorer? Bullshit, he is a playmaker. He had 2x the amount of assists that he had goals. A goal scorer is somebody who gets setup and has a great shot (like I said, Bure, Ovechkin) Goal scorers care about goals and only goals. I never said playmakers cannot score. Most good playmakers do put the puck in the net, a lot. Sometimes they make plays all by themselves. I stand by the statement that he is not a goal scorer. Gretz even said that he is not a goalscorer, he is a playmaker... but you would know.

First...yes I would...

All I can say is get some vintage game tapes and watch them..then comment...He just happens to be modest about his accomplishments..But in the context of "would I choose Gretzky in his hayday for a shootout?"(comparing Gretzky's one on one scoring talents to other "pure scorers) ...hell yes!!!!! Go to hockeydb and look up the records of all the greatest goal scorers and "pure goal scorers" in the NHL of all time...Then look up their seasons...and compare them to Gretzky's.

And yes Gretzky was also the greatest set up man of all time besides being the greatest scorer of all time.

...Just like being a playmaker does not mean you cannot also be a goal scorer, being a great goal scorer does not mean you cannot be a great playmaker too. Look the man scored more goals than anyone ever has in the NHL, and NOBODY has even come close to what he did in his first 10 seasons...scoring goals...the fact that he also had more assists than goals is just incredible

And in what context did Gretz say this..in his last years as a Ranger....?

I understand that you may have had it drilled into you by coaches that being a "set up man" is preferable to being a "pure scorer", which in the eyes of many coaches means "a selfish player"...however it just so happened that Gretz was both.

Gretzky was blessed with that impossible to teach talent of being able to make the right decision at the right time...make the play that will be the best for the team at any given second.

[Vapor 0]

I never said I wouldnt use him in a shootout, I never said he couldnt score goals. Of course he was a great goal scorer. All I said is he is a playmaker first, and I stand by it. Gretz was interviewed in LA and somebody said how do you feel being the best goalscorer of all time (something to that effect) and he said I am no goal scorer... I may score a lot, but I have always been a playmaker first and formost. This was from the early to mid nineties.

[MDE3 0]

I never said I wouldnt use him in a shootout, I never said he couldnt score goals. Of course he was a great goal scorer. All I said is he is a playmaker first, and I stand by it. Gretz was interviewed in LA and somebody said how do you feel being the best goalscorer of all time (something to that effect) and he said I am no goal scorer... I may score a lot, but I have always been a playmaker first and formost. This was from the early to mid nineties.

As I recall this discussion was about whether Jagr should take his place in the Ranger's shootout lineup, and you were defending him for not doing so because he is a "playmaker" not a "scorer", and you used Gretzky as a parellel example...implying that even though Gretzky scored a lot of goals he was not a "scorer", implying that maybe like Jagr he shouldn't have been selected for a shootout.....and there is where we dissagree...

A healthy Jagr belongs in the shootout lineup anytime and at his peak was as good a "scorer" as there was..or almost. Gretzky at his peak was a better "pure scorer" than anyone in the league, then and since, with the possible exception of Lemieux at his peak..one on one, or 5 on 5.

I think where we dissagree is what the term "scorer" versus "pure goal scorer" means. To you it means someone who does nothing else but try to score, and to me it means someone who has an incredible talent to put the biscuit in the basket pretty much at will. You used both in referring to Gretzky and Jagr.

[Vapor 0]

If you read my posts you would have seen that I specifically said that he should have without a doubt been in the shootout.

[mack 44]

Gretzky scored goals because he knew where to be. He wasn't anything special on a breakaway/PS. Nagano.

[DarkStar50 679]

Sorry mack, in Nagano Gretzky was 105 years old in NHL years. Check out 80s videos of Gretzky on breakaways and he was something special. Ask Billy Smith.

[mack 44]

Sorry mack, in Nagano Gretzky was 105 years old in NHL years. Check out 80s videos of Gretzky on breakaways and he was something special. Ask Billy Smith.

So was Hasek and he was a wall. I'm just saying I don't think Gretzky gets a nod in a shootout based on anything more than respect/credit. Look at Jussi Jokinen. Not a great goal-scorer but put him in the shootout and it's done.

[Eazy_b97 1]

I bought that Ultimate Gretzky vid and it seemed like he had an easy time on breakaways in the 80's and early in his career. Seemed to love to deke forehand and slide it in backhand. But at that token with goalies back then you had a lot more to shoot at (sorry oldtimers)

Goooordie Howe "Improve that back hand, Wayne."

I get the impression everyone in the 80s had an easy time scoring on breakaways.

[MDE3 0]

I bought that Ultimate Gretzky vid and it seemed like he had an easy time on breakaways in the 80's and early in his career. Seemed to love to deke forehand and slide it in backhand. But at that token with goalies back then you had a lot more to shoot at (sorry oldtimers)

Goooordie Howe "Improve that back hand, Wayne."

I get the impression everyone in the 80s had an easy time scoring on breakaways.

as a former goalie I would like to respectfully dissagree...

[Vapor 0]

Oh we all knew 80s goalies were only marginally more effective than paper mache shooter tutors

[Vapor 0]

lol, I never knew you were so artistic.

[MDE3 0]

actually if you go back and check the stats from the 60's through the mid 70's you will find the goals against and the save percentages were not much different from today. In the 80's expansion era when the WHA was absorbed, they did climb..no doubt, but then everyone else (playing at the same time as Gretzky) had the same opportunities.

[GSHL99 0]

To be a truely great playmaker you also have to be a goalscorer, it's just a fact. Part of being a playmaker is knowing when to take the puck in yourself and score the goal and when to pass. If all you can do is make the pass then you're never going to be an exceptional player. There's a time to shoot and a time to pass, being able to know the difference and having the ability to preform both tasks is what makes players like Gretzky the truely remarkable players they were.

[mack 44]

In theory you have to think like a goal scorer but execution is what separates the two. Janney comes to mind, who went so far as setting up Shanahan to score with his wife*.