Lecavalier, Thornton, or Datsyuk?

[Datsyukiandeek 0]

I would have to say Thornton as well. He is the most valuable player on the Sharks by far while Lecavalier has St. Louis, Richards and had Khabibulin and others during the cup run and Datsyuk has always been able to hide behind Yzerman, Federov, Lidstrom, Shanny over his years in Detroit. Yes I know Thornton has been slowed in the playoffs, but the guy still averaged a point a game this playoffs. If you are going on who's most valuable to their team, I don't see how Joe doesn't get the nod.

Hide? Leading a team in scoring for three seasons, could have been four without the lockout is hardly hiding. I mean, its not like the guy played for 8 seasons on the fourth line of the Wings, he came in and was effective from day one. I'll conceed Thornton being better for size alone but Lecavalier isn't even close to Datsyuk or Joe.

[pwrfwd26 0]

put me on the board for BIG JOE!

[Hockeyman9621 0]

Thornton and Vinny can both use their bodies to make plays with out the puck, Datsyuk needs the puck to be effective. So narrowing it down to either Lecavalier or Thornton I'd choose Joe, he's better than Vinny at using his body to his his advantage, although they are both pretty amazing at it.

You're insane, obviously Dats is 6 inches shorter then either Vinny or Joe but to say that hes worthless without the puck is ridiculous. Datsyuk's two way play is without a doubt better then Thornton or Lecavalier.

Whats with the excuses in the Jumbo Joe camp? If hes so amazing then his play should speak for itself. He has yet to have a dominate playoff year. He played well but for as highly as some of you rank him, he didn't live up the hype.

Vinny only took a decade to finally realize potential and it only took a Hart winner like St. Louis to push him over the edge..

Datsyuk is the better player overall but Joe has size factor. They are all pretty much the same age and recieve the same salary.

1. Thornton

2. Datsyuk

3. Lecavalier

Le-frog plays in a weaker conference and isn't exactly known for his two way game. 1 and 2 could be flipped depending on the individual team needs. The Sharks have alot of young scoring wingers that need a great setup man. The Wings need Datsyuk to score goals and setup up zetterberg. The rest of the team is made up of fourth liners with hands of stone.

Okay, when Datsyuk leads the lead in goals assists or points or wins league MVP, then he'll be first on the list. Obviously I love to watch Datsyuk work his magic and I understand he's your favourite player, but one of them has won a Hart, the other a Rocket, Datsyuk has won the Lady Byng. His best aspect is his play making, and he's being compared to the best play maker in the league, so you rightfully put Thornton ahead of him, but him and Lecavalier have so much raw offensive ability that it came down to size and impact and goal scoring ability between them.

[TBLfan 25]

Well not that Lecavalier will be confused with a Selke candidate but Tampa seemed like a run-and-gun team plus without checking I'd be a crapload of those points came on the PP.

16 PPG, 5 SHG. Vinny's defense is questionable but they also like to use his speed(very underrated) to get up the ice after a turnover. Tampa is a team that tends to have a good amount of breakouts.

BTW, we understand that you like Datsy but come on, if you have to defend him this much you might consider it to be a lost cause, you might even want to consider that you're just wrong. Try to be realistic and unbiased. It would be easy, especially now, for me to make a case that one of my favorite players is the better player to build a team around but I just don't believe that to be true, I'm realistic. Vinny is a leader but at this point he's still less mature than Thornton.

[Datsyukiandeek 0]

Well not that Lecavalier will be confused with a Selke candidate but Tampa seemed like a run-and-gun team plus without checking I'd be a crapload of those points came on the PP.

16 PPG, 5 SHG. Vinny's defense is questionable but they also like to use his speed(very underrated) to get up the ice after a turnover. Tampa is a team that tends to have a good amount of breakouts.

BTW, we understand that you like Datsy but come on, if you have to defend him this much you might consider it to be a lost cause, you might even want to consider that you're just wrong. Try to be realistic and unbiased. It would be easy, especially now, for me to make a case that one of my favorite players is the better player to build a team around but I just don't believe that to be true, I'm realistic. Vinny is a leader but at this point he's still less mature than Thornton.

Datsyuk had 87 points in 79, while not having as many points as Jumbo Joe or Levacalier, hes blowing them away on the defensive end of the puck. Add in the fact that he led the Western conference in playoff goals and won the head to head match against Joe, I would say its pretty easy to consider him #2 on this list. Datsyuk was top tweleve in Selke voting, Thornton and Vinny didn't even register.

The fact that you're defending Lecavalier's miserable +2 while scoring 110 points is laughable. "Run and gun" = the Eastern Conference as a whole. And size isn't everything, Dats manages to score over a point per game, playing strong two way hockey, while sacraficing 6 inches to Joe and Vinny.

I would see your complaint, if Datsyuk was putting up 60 points and were a +2 or if he put up Marc Savard style goal/assist ratio. Its still obvious that while Datsyuk didn't put up as many points, hes still the better player on the WHOLE ice surface. Its also amazing how you discount St. Louis in all of this and that is why Vinny is third. Terrible defensive play, great linemates in a terrible division. Thats why Joe gets the nod, hes turned Cheechoo and Michalek into major threats.

1. Thornton

2. Datsyuk

3. Lecavalier

Thats the obvious list, if it were not then why even include Datsyuk in this conversation? Unless its an obvious dig to spark a discussion with myself.

[TBLfan 25]

If you've watched any lightning games this year or last you'd see that Marty is being supported by Vinny, not the other way around. How productive was Marty when he was on Richards line? Richards does nothing but pass, if Perrin can score with Richards I'd hope St Louis could too. Oh but you knew that, I'm sure.

Vinny also spends a lot of time on the PK, for long shifts. I've seen him play 3+ minutes of a 4min PK multiple times this year... but that would have nothing to do with plus/minus, right? It's a well known fact that Tampa's defense isn't very good and the goaltending is questionable, but of course that's Lecavalier's fault... Not Janik, Sarich, Pratt, Boyle, Ranger, O'Brien or any other forward's fault... Just Vinny's. It couldn't possibly be because of the constant rotation of wingers for Vinny to play with all season, it couldn't be because Perrin and Prospal were bad supporting cast members. If I had to guess how many open net goals either of them missed this season(I missed watching one game all season) I'd have to guess around 15, maybe more, obviously not all of them were from Vinny. Not to mention his double shifts with Karlsson, Tarnasky and the like.

I NEVER discounted the fact that Datsyuk was good but is he someone that I would build a team around? No. Thornton, yes. Lecavalier, probably. Crosby, yes.

[Datsyukiandeek 0]

Well then you've one arm chair GM of the century then. I mean one of the best teams in the league has decided to build aound Datsyuk. And a +2 during a 110 point season is abysmal any way you spin it. Obviously its not Lecavalier's duty to play defense on the Lightining but its not Datsyuk's either. Hes just that good. But maybe I should believe your "unbiased" view of Vinny. :lol:

[Cavs019 710]

He's not that good, when you have Lidstrom, Schneider, and Hasek behind you as opposed to 2 Pylons and Darren "whoever the the hell Tampa's goalie is" Puppa +/- is a moot category. Do you honestly think Marek Malik was worth of his +/- statistic? Hell, I'd take Kovalchuk over both of them and he's minus 7000 for his career. Do you honestly think it's a coincidence that scrubs on good teams are always near the league lead in the category? It's not an individual statistic.

[tips09 0]

He's not that good, when you have Lidstrom, Schneider, and Hasek behind you as opposed to 2 Pylons and Darren "whoever the the hell Tampa's goalie is" Puppa +/- is a moot category. Do you honestly think Marek Malik was worth of his +/- statistic? Hell, I'd take Kovalchuk over both of them and he's minus 7000 for his career. Do you honestly think it's a coincidence that scrubs on good teams are always near the league lead in the category? It's not an individual statistic.

I agree.. If you think about it if the 4th line is always minus they dont have the luxury of being great they will just get sent down to the A

[wallin2199 0]

Let's be honest, none of them are being paid the millions of dollars they are to play defense. None of them are very dominating defensive presences and each plays in a different system. Lecavalier doesn't have the plus minus number because he has a high number of PP points and the Lightning play run and gun hockey with wingers leaving the zone to catch breaks. No player truly stands out defensively so I really think anyone saying "X guy is so much better defensively" is truly a moot point.

[TBLfan 25]

Well then you've one arm chair GM of the century then. I mean one of the best teams in the league has decided to build aound Datsyuk. And a +2 during a 110 point season is abysmal any way you spin it. Obviously its not Lecavalier's duty to play defense on the Lightining but its not Datsyuk's either. Hes just that good. But maybe I should believe your "unbiased" view of Vinny. :lol:

Best team of the league that has stars all around Datsy and still can't perform in the playoffs... Your regular season record doesn't mean crap if you can't get to the finals. The team isn't built around him, he's just an addition to the team. I love YOUR unbiased view of Datsy: "Hes just that good." Then you have the nerve to try to call me out for being biased? Biased how? I'm not making outrageous claims about Vinny's talent, playmaking or leadership abilities. Watching more than 80 Lightning games last season MIGHT have just given me knowledge of how the team is run and why the numbers are the way they are. Numbers don't tell the whole story... but being that you are all knowing, you should know that. Clearly, your arguement as well as Dastyuk's talent and leadership is completely infallible. I bow down in your presence.

[cds 0]

1. Thornton

2. Lecavalier

...

...

3. Datsyuk

[Datsyukiandeek 0]

Well then you've one arm chair GM of the century then. I mean one of the best teams in the league has decided to build aound Datsyuk. And a +2 during a 110 point season is abysmal any way you spin it. Obviously its not Lecavalier's duty to play defense on the Lightining but its not Datsyuk's either. Hes just that good. But maybe I should believe your "unbiased" view of Vinny. :lol:

Best team of the league that has stars all around Datsy and still can't perform in the playoffs... Your regular season record doesn't mean crap if you can't get to the finals. The team isn't built around him, he's just an addition to the team. I love YOUR unbiased view of Datsy: "Hes just that good." Then you have the nerve to try to call me out for being biased? Biased how? I'm not making outrageous claims about Vinny's talent, playmaking or leadership abilities. Watching more than 80 Lightning games last season MIGHT have just given me knowledge of how the team is run and why the numbers are the way they are. Numbers don't tell the whole story... but being that you are all knowing, you should know that. Clearly, your arguement as well as Dastyuk's talent and leadership is completely infallible. I bow down in your presence.

The team isn't built around Datsyuk? The guy they just signed for seven years, the guy that has led them in scoring for three seasons going on his fourth. Explain to me how they are not building around Datsyuk?

PS: What stars have the Red Wings specifically brought in to boost Datsyuk's performance? Was it Thomas Holmstrom? Nah, Dan Cleary? Nope, Mikael Samuelsson? Exactly.

And yes, Datsyuk is being paid to play defensively and to lead the team. But of course, Datsyuk's leadership abilities are terrible, led the team in scoring..led the team in playoff goals and almost brought them back in game Six against the quacks with two goals. Oh wait, Vinny Lefrog has done it all. Unbiased my ass. I know you're a member of hfboards, why don't you go review the "Top five centers in the league" topic, plenty of unbiased opinion in that thread. If I recall, Lecavalier was on the outside looking in while Datsyuk clearly got the nod as top five. Clearly though, hes just a role player that no team would build around, surely not. Every team signs their role players to seven year deals..

[Cavs019 710]

How can you complain about his help when you have your boy Zetterberg in your other hand at the same time. Also, scoring has nothing to do with leadership.

[mack 44]

For fuck's sake just get your hands back to cupping his balls and handling his shaft and stop posting in this thread.

[Datsyukiandeek 0]

For fuck's sake just get your hands back to cupping his balls and handling his shaft and stop posting in this thread.

Die, as usual you bring nothing to the discussion. What happened to Thornton destorying Datsyuk in the playoffs this season? Oh right, you definitally picked that.

[mack 44]

I added all that needed to be added in the beginning, before your queer ass posted about someone getting 12th place in voting for the Selke. Put your McFarlane Datsyuk back inside you, frecklepuncher.

[TBLfan 25]

Vinny has done more than Datysuk has.

Yeah, hfboards will bring me any more quality information from a group of monkey's humping a doorknob than listening to you rant on about Datsyuk while choking on his... well, you know.

[sabre09923 0]

This past year was undoubtedly Vinny's breakout year. Reached the 100 point plateau for the first time in his career, and finally met the expectations that everyone seemed to set for him. He finally broke 80 points. Using Datsyukiandeek's fantastic logic, we can then assume that Vinny is being paid to play defensively AND is a great leader because he led his team in points. And still, Vinny comes out on top as a "better leader" because, well, he has more points than Pavel.

But wait! That must mean that Thornton has been a better leader for some time since he's had more points than both Vinny and Pavel for the past 5 years!

Funny how he would be my pick though. It also helps that I saw him a lot in Boston, so I bet I'd make a better decision if I got to saw the other two more. I will say that the times I've seen vinny play, he hasn't really impressed me.