skating with a toe down profile

[Hockeydog 8]

Just re-reading the One90 Transition and Skate Profiling thread from the Ice Hockey Equipment sub forum. It really has to be one of the best threads ever- on anyone's forum!

It did raise a question for me. Lot's of talk about getting the profile more on the toes for agility and quickness. While I can understand that being the case for quick starts, how does it help with power turns,crossovers, etc? I was always taught to keep my weight on the back halves of the blades for sharp turns and crossovers. I'm not that fast and not that agile so maybe I need more forward pitch. And while I am in good cardiovascular shape I get fatigued quickly. Any help understanding how this works would be awesome. That thread will be hockeymom's legacy!!

[Jordan 13]

Pitch, everyone seems to feel it differently, For me Graf 705s were like magic when I put them on for the first time. I later came to understand that it wasn't the skate that was so different, it was the pitch.

When I got my Vapor XXXX's I had them profiled to a FWD profile (15/30 on a CAG) and I still felt that I was running uphill in them. I had them profiled further forward (30/40) and presto, comfortable again, just like the Grafs.

If you want more/faster glide, with less fatigue, try a shallower hollow, or a longer profile.

[helper 0]

The challenge with changing the profile (pitch) of a blade is that it is next to impossible to maintain for a season unless the guy sharpening skates really has it figured out. few do, and if one guys does he is usually off the day you need a grind

Skaters must bend their knees to bring the weight fwd to the ball of the foot for maximum edge control...think Paul Coffey.

The simplest way to get on to the ball of the foot is to increase the heel height of the blade with a simple 1/8" (3mm) plastic heel lift betwen the boot and the blade.

It forces you to bend your knees and be on the ball of the foot.

It's why lots of players like the Cobra holder versus the TUUK, the hell height is about 2mm higher

you can compare it to downhill skis...If you have ever downhill skied then you will note that a ski boot locks you into a bent knee, weight on ball of foot position, and that gives you your best edge control. A ski is the same as a skate...same inside and outside edges...like a skate..just further apart.

[Hockeydog 8]

Thanks for the replies, I have had my LHS reprofile the blades twice, still feeling like the balance point is just in front of my heels, I'd like them closed to just behind the ball of my foot. My LHS doesn't do heel lifts, so I'll have to find someone who does.

[Rustpot 1]

My LHS guy told me that the E holders I have on my Vectors are pitched forward more than everything but Graf, and I feel I'm spending too much time on the balls of my feet.

I can't comfortably balance further back on the blades and get good bite through turns and crosses, it won't allow me to keep my balance well.

I'm having "training wheels" put on, moving the pitch more toward the arch and getting the radius bumped up.

[GoHabsGo24 1]

My LHS guy told me that the E holders I have on my Vectors are pitched forward more than everything but Graf, and I feel I'm spending too much time on the balls of my feet.

I can't comfortably balance further back on the blades and get good bite through turns and crosses, it won't allow me to keep my balance well.

I'm having "training wheels" put on, moving the pitch more toward the arch and getting the radius bumped up.

What are training wheels?

[Rustpot 1]

My LHS guy told me that the E holders I have on my Vectors are pitched forward more than everything but Graf, and I feel I'm spending too much time on the balls of my feet.

I can't comfortably balance further back on the blades and get good bite through turns and crosses, it won't allow me to keep my balance well.

I'm having "training wheels" put on, moving the pitch more toward the arch and getting the radius bumped up.

What are training wheels?

having the pitch more neutral (between heel and toe) and getting a flatter radius. It allows more stability but sacrifices tight turning and quick pushoffs.

The same way a bike has training wheels, you can't fall over as easily but you also can't turn well and they turn into a handicap very quickly.

[Chadd 916]

Most people I've seen skate who want an extreme toe-down pitch really sit back on their heels. Most refuse to believe or admit it, but that's the reality of the situation. An extreme forward pitch forces you to bend your knees more and to me that is much more like having training wheels than a mild pitch. Look at it this way; if you are already bending your knees and getting forward on your skates, a steep pitch would put your center of gravity so far forward that you would be unbalanced. The only way to "combat" that forward angle of the skate is to have your center of gravity farther back in relation to your skate.

[Jordan 13]

Chadd,

I am curious about what you mean by an "extreme forward pitch" ? If I use the Graf Cobra as a benchmerk, do you mean that amount or are you talking about more fwd pitch than even that?

In my own experience, The CCM pitch felt fine to me, then I had Grafs, felt great to me, then I got XXXXs and it felt like I was wearing earth shoes. Now, perhaps i would have gotten use to it, but it was a much easier transition to have them profiled to a more fwd pitch.

[GoHabsGo24 1]

Most people I've seen skate who want an extreme toe-down pitch really sit back on their heels. Most refuse to believe or admit it, but that's the reality of the situation. An extreme forward pitch forces you to bend your knees more and to me that is much more like having training wheels than a mild pitch. Look at it this way; if you are already bending your knees and getting forward on your skates, a steep pitch would put your center of gravity so far forward that you would be unbalanced. The only way to "combat" that forward angle of the skate is to have your center of gravity farther back in relation to your skate.

If i skate already leaning forward, knees bent, i would assume that i can buy a NBH skate out of the box and be ok right? or are there more factors to consider when dealing with pitch?

[o2wen 0]

i went from vapor 2 with t blades to vapor xxxx lightspeed blades. i got my skates custom radiused to the exact same shape of the t blades. I skate on the front toe of the blade so it helps alot more.

[Jordan 13]

One thing that I noticed with my XXXXs is that because they are so stiff you can only flex them so far forward. As a result, it is hard to get to that knee bent, "weight on the balls of your feet" position with your knees over your toes for acceleration. Once the pitch was changed, it took less ankle flex to get to that position...anyhow, worked for me.

[Chadd 916]

Chadd,

I am curious about what you mean by an "extreme forward pitch" ? If I use the Graf Cobra as a benchmerk, do you mean that amount or are you talking about more fwd pitch than even that?

In my own experience, The CCM pitch felt fine to me, then I had Grafs, felt great to me, then I got XXXXs and it felt like I was wearing earth shoes. Now, perhaps i would have gotten use to it, but it was a much easier transition to have them profiled to a more fwd pitch.

Grafs feel extreme to me but I know people who have them profiled to have an even more aggressive pitch.

One thing that I noticed with my XXXXs is that because they are so stiff you can only flex them so far forward. As a result, it is hard to get to that knee bent, "weight on the balls of your feet" position with your knees over your toes for acceleration. Once the pitch was changed, it took less ankle flex to get to that position...anyhow, worked for me.

That's a major reason why I don't like tall, stiff skates. It's harder for smaller or weaker guys to get that forward flex. If you can't get a boot to flex, that's a good sign that you shouldn't be in that boot.

[Jason16 0]

Chadd, is the boot supposed to flex or the tongue and the laces?

[Chadd 916]

Chadd, is the boot supposed to flex or the tongue and the laces?

If your laces are flexing, they aren't going to stay tied very well.

[Jason16 0]

Thanks the reason I ask is I remember someone saying in an older thread where the tongue and laces are supposed to flex more than the boot otherwise the boot is too deep and will break down (crease) quicker

[Jordan 13]

FWIW, I am a pretty big guy 5'11 205, with a very powerful stride..I can definitely flex the boot on my skates. I just think that there os more to detrmining the correct pitch for each individual.

Each person has a different center of gravity, different length of shin bone, diefferent length and different relative length of thigh bone, different aligment etc.

I know from downhill ski racing, that the techs would alter the stance for each skier (just like a change in pitch on a skate)depending upon the above mentioned factors, and these were all high performance skiers, so it wasn't based upon strength or weakness; it was based upon how your body responded when you were flexing the boot.

Anyhow, I know Graf has a belief that having your weight forward on the balls of your feet is a more athletic ready position than standing flat footed.

I guess in the end it is PP

[Chadd 916]

Anyhow, I know Graf has a belief that having your weight forward on the balls of your feet is a more athletic ready position than standing flat footed.

I guess in the end it is PP

You missed the point. Having your weight over the balls of your feet is where you get the most power out of your stride, there's no debate there. The point was that many people are able to do this without the skate forcing them into the position. I'm not a great skater but I am on the balls of my feet when I'm going forward, even without setting my pitch holders to a +1. I do tend to sit back when I'm skating backwards though.

[chk hrd 164]

Most people I've seen skate who want an extreme toe-down pitch really sit back on their heels. Most refuse to believe or admit it, but that's the reality of the situation. An extreme forward pitch forces you to bend your knees more and to me that is much more like having training wheels than a mild pitch. Look at it this way; if you are already bending your knees and getting forward on your skates, a steep pitch would put your center of gravity so far forward that you would be unbalanced. The only way to "combat" that forward angle of the skate is to have your center of gravity farther back in relation to your skate.

I think alot of people tend to put the weight on thier toes by bending over more at the back instead of by keeping thier back straight and bending thier knees. When you have a more forward leaning skate it is really noticable because your center of gravity is moved more forward than down.

I almost felt like I needed to re-learn how to skate when I switched from my old 652's with the Prolite 3 holder to the my 9k's with the E-Pro's. The 652's felt more neutral while the 9k's put me on the balls of my feet. After skating in the 9k's I realized that I had gotten lazy with my skating form. The only way that I could skate in the 9k's was to fix my form and skate alot more aggresively (propper knee bend, stride, etc). The upside is that it forced me to get back into form and skate better.

[Jordan 13]

Agreed about the position where you generate power..just think there is more to it than those who can't bend their knees enough are the ones who need a toe down pitch. For example, Jager has a massive lift on the heel of his one90s to give them the same pitch as his old Grafs. Surely, it isn't an inability to flex the skate or get into a proper skating position that has created his desire for the toe down stance.

I just think that we all have didderences in our biomechanical structure that makes an optimum set up for each person a little bit different for each of us.