His Graf Materials

[Jordan 13]

hunterphfr,

Have you treid have the toe caps stretched on the grafs. they are supposed to be one of the easiest toecaps to heat and manipulate.

[bbruins8 0]

I will the next time I'm at the shop. I'll be bringing in a pair of Flexlites for a side-by-side, too, before I rape them with every tool in the shop.

NICE!

Really appreciate the info...I look forward to your impressions on stiffness.

Final question...holder size on Grafs. Buddy wears a 9.5 and wants to go LS2 holder. What size should he ask for?

280 MM.

[hunterphfr 12]

Just got them right before the holidays. I've only had them on the ice once. Our leagues are just starting up and I'm in a firefighter/police tournament in Orlando all this week. So I have had no time to play with them. It'll probably be next week before I can get out to a free skate or pickup and start getting them to adjust. There are a couple of old school shoe repair places near me and I have a heat gun. I haven't exactly figured out what I'm gonna do just yet. I think once I get the tongue slash/toe cap juncture curved up and out of the top of my foot I should solve alot of my problems.

Deepest/widest commercial non-custom boot available and my feet still have issues.

[MLSman 22]

280 MM.

Thanks bbruins8! I figured that. As I have heard JR say many times, MM don't lie. I wear the same skate size shoe as my bud, and regardless of the variances in size of my skates from different manufacturers, the size of the holder is always a constant 280.

[cbart 1]

I will the next time I'm at the shop. I'll be bringing in a pair of Flexlites for a side-by-side, too, before I rape them with every tool in the shop.

NICE!

Really appreciate the info...I look forward to your impressions on stiffness.

Final question...holder size on Grafs. Buddy wears a 9.5 and wants to go LS2 holder. What size should he ask for?

280 MM.

I put 288's on my 9.5 Grafs. I like to get as much holder on there as I can.

[krwwc6 0]

I will the next time I'm at the shop. I'll be bringing in a pair of Flexlites for a side-by-side, too, before I rape them with every tool in the shop.

NICE!

Really appreciate the info...I look forward to your impressions on stiffness.

Final question...holder size on Grafs. Buddy wears a 9.5 and wants to go LS2 holder. What size should he ask for?

280 MM.

I put 288's on my 9.5 Grafs. I like to get as much holder on there as I can.

I'm the same way. I put 280's on my 8.5 grafs. I'm loving it.

[JR Boucicaut 3805]

Just got them right before the holidays. I've only had them on the ice once. Our leagues are just starting up and I'm in a firefighter/police tournament in Orlando all this week. So I have had no time to play with them. It'll probably be next week before I can get out to a free skate or pickup and start getting them to adjust. There are a couple of old school shoe repair places near me and I have a heat gun. I haven't exactly figured out what I'm gonna do just yet. I think once I get the tongue slash/toe cap juncture curved up and out of the top of my foot I should solve alot of my problems.

Deepest/widest commercial non-custom boot available and my feet still have issues.

Have fun at RDV. That used to be my old shop.

[bbruins8 0]

Anyone know if the common issues with the G5 have been resolved yet? Durability, holder not sitting on outsole properly, etc...Looking at a pair on ebay in my size I might snag.

[MLSman 22]

Some interesting information from one of my LHS guys:

I spent some time with the guy that runs McKie's in Syracuse, and the Graf subject came up. His experiences are very similar to what most have said about Graf, and he even hinted that at times Graf can be difficult to deal with. One thing he did make clear is that the easiest path to not only get what you want, but the easiest way to deal with any issues would be to go through the Graf rep...I am sure that comes as no surprise to the guys that work in the shops. FYI - the Graf rep will be at the store 2:00 PM EST on Wednesday Jan 15th. You all have been so helpful I wanted to let you know that if you want to talk to the Graf rep at that time, either show up or call the store: (315) 487-2010.

[Law Goalie 147]

I saw a brand new pair of Regehr pro-returns the other day that brought back every horror story I'd ever heard about Graf's recent efforts. Now, admittedly, pro-returns get returned for a reason, but how the hell they thought a skate like that would ever get past a trainer scares me.

One interesting thing about them that didn't look terrible: they were 705s with the XP3 (Ultra-series) material underneath Teclite, the way the stock 705 has nylon under leather. The XP3 was clearly visible through the little 'window' on the quarters.

I'm still really torn about this. I think I'm definitely going for a mainly 700-series skate, but I'm still unclear about the long-term durability of the G-series Teclite upper. Dave's old review of his 705 Teclites seems pretty glowing, but then, his were Swiss Grafs. Given its ambiguous ubiquity on the uppers of pro-return Grafs of all kinds, I'm very curious.

I also can't find any reliable info on the full range of Graf liner materials. Was 'KX Microfibre' the much-maligned G-series liner? Other microfibre materials have been received well, and I'm loving the stuff in my Flexlite 10s. Was Graf's just that bad? What about the Ultra-series Airknit?

[tsanga 0]

One interesting thing about them that didn't look terrible: they were 705s with the XP3 (Ultra-series) material underneath Teclite, the way the stock 705 has nylon under leather. The XP3 was clearly visible through the little 'window' on the quarters.

Hmm, this would be an interesting combination to try. I totally enjoy the weight and stiffness of my Ultra boots, but the squishy, almost vinyl-looking covering shows every cut and ding.

As for your other concerns, here's what I can offer.

A guy I skate with has been on the 735 with T-blades for at least a year and a half, skating 2-3 times a week. We compare Graf notes since we are one of the few that skate Grafs. The Teclite has been holding up remarkably well for him.

The AirNet liner in my Ultra skates have been absolutely fantastic after a couple months of regular use. I came from a microfiber liner (not Graf's), and I appreciate the AirNet so much more. It's comfy and feels dry to the touch after every skate, and I haven't experienced any of the slipping issues that others had. A variable in this could be the socks, too, I suppose. My last experience with microfiber was it was great to start, and over time they just got more and more water-logged.

[Law Goalie 147]

Just to confirm, are you wearing socks with the AirNet liner, or did you not wear socks with the Microfiber?

Are you noticing any wear/tear on the AirNet? A lot of people seem to be getting Ultra boots where the liner isn't even fully stitched in, or just rips apart immediately.

(For anyone who cares, I'm using Wigwam Ultimax liner socks at the moment, but I also have a pair of their even thinner Gobi liners. I will be getting a lined toe-cap, so going barefoot is an option, too.)

Another question just occurred... will using an AirNet liner inside the older 700-series materials be the skate-boot equivalent of wearing a wool sweater over a Dri-Fit wicking top? (ie. will the sweat just go right through the liner and saturate the upper?)

[MLSman 22]

I came from a microfiber liner (not Graf's), and I appreciate the AirNet so much more. It's comfy and feels dry to the touch after every skate, and I haven't experienced any of the slipping issues that others had. A variable in this could be the socks, too, I suppose. My last experience with microfiber was it was great to start, and over time they just got more and more water-logged.

I had that issue with my XXXXs until I went to the same sock Law Goalie uses, the Wigwam Ultimax. No more issues...hydrophobic liner dries in only a couple of hours.

[TBLfan 25]

Just got them right before the holidays. I've only had them on the ice once. Our leagues are just starting up and I'm in a firefighter/police tournament in Orlando all this week. So I have had no time to play with them. It'll probably be next week before I can get out to a free skate or pickup and start getting them to adjust. There are a couple of old school shoe repair places near me and I have a heat gun. I haven't exactly figured out what I'm gonna do just yet. I think once I get the tongue slash/toe cap juncture curved up and out of the top of my foot I should solve alot of my problems.

Deepest/widest commercial non-custom boot available and my feet still have issues.

Have fun at RDV. That used to be my old shop.

Have you kept up with anyone at the shop? I'm just curious how well the store is stocked.

[JR Boucicaut 3805]

Sure, I'm still the fuckin' King. My picture's still on the wall in the sharpening room. 3 yrs and it's still up. Last August some of the shop employees (obv rinkrats when I worked it) heard I was coming and cleaned the store up. It was refreshing.

[TBLfan 25]

hahaha, it's all about pimping those hoes.

[hunterphfr 12]

Just got them right before the holidays. I've only had them on the ice once. Our leagues are just starting up and I'm in a firefighter/police tournament in Orlando all this week. So I have had no time to play with them. It'll probably be next week before I can get out to a free skate or pickup and start getting them to adjust. There are a couple of old school shoe repair places near me and I have a heat gun. I haven't exactly figured out what I'm gonna do just yet. I think once I get the tongue slash/toe cap juncture curved up and out of the top of my foot I should solve alot of my problems.

Deepest/widest commercial non-custom boot available and my feet still have issues.

Have fun at RDV. That used to be my old shop.

Have you kept up with anyone at the shop? I'm just curious how well the store is stocked.

I knew it was your old stomping grounds JR just from hanging out here. What a kick ass complex. Glad I missed the game on the O rink though. Don't even want to think about the tennis wives, damn they looked good. Orlando Fire puts on a kick ass tournament.

To answer your question TBLfan it is an it is smaller than Brandon but maybe a little bigger than TBSA in Oldsmar. It is an incredibly clean and organised shop. This left a lot of unused space though I thought. There was less stock in the shop than you would find in TBSA much less Brandon, but it didn't have the feeling of stuff piled on top of stuff to fit it all in. JR do they have storage outside of the shop? It was only a 4 day tournament and several times I heard we can get that for you or we can have it here tomorrow?

[JR Boucicaut 3805]

Wonder if Sam Romaldo's still involved with the Central Florida Firefighters team. He's a great guy.

Their storage facility is under the Olympic rink bleachers.

Sad part is that RDV was much more kick-ass 5 yrs ago when it was voted one of the top 10 rinks by USA Mag. Ice used to be top notch, as well as staff and shop. They're getting back there though. Did you go into the Athletic Club?

[tsanga 0]

Just to confirm, are you wearing socks with the AirNet liner, or did you not wear socks with the Microfiber?

Are you noticing any wear/tear on the AirNet? A lot of people seem to be getting Ultra boots where the liner isn't even fully stitched in, or just rips apart immediately.

(For anyone who cares, I'm using Wigwam Ultimax liner socks at the moment, but I also have a pair of their even thinner Gobi liners. I will be getting a lined toe-cap, so going barefoot is an option, too.)

Alright, let's move the FL boys out of the room. It's hockey weather in Minny today, 1 deg F.

I always wear socks. I have tried both the Ultimax and Gobi liners. Right now I'm on Oxysocks because I like the over-the-calf coverage better, and my Wigwam stuff is crew cuff. I have worn all three in both microfiber and AirNet boots. Not much difference to report between the two other than the aforementioned sweat retention, except that I find the Gobi liner a bit slippery in both boots. I don't find the AirNet slippery as someone else said.

Also, no wear on the AirNet liner. I looked at all the stitching and I may have lucked out with a better QC'ed pair.

[Law Goalie 147]

It's bloody +1C in Toronto. :(

I found the Gobis a little slippery too.

The meaningful complaints about AirNet generally fall into three categories:

1) It's poorly sewn in/constructed.

2) It's slippery.

3) My foot shifts.

2 &3 aren't quite the same. Quite apart from the 'slippert' comments, many others reported that AirNet had a 'softer' more cushioned feeling: some liked it, some hated it. The ones who hated it reported that they could feel their foot pushing the liner around inside the boot. Their feet weren't so much slipping inside the liner as shifting the liner itself.

Now, that *may* have something to do with the liner being sewn improperly. I've been advised to get *everything* on the boot double-stitched, apart from the logos and cosmetic lines. That said, minimizing foot-movement (especially in the heel) is a massive concern for me.

I wonder if Graf could do a combination liner: KX microfibre in the heel-pocket, and AirNet everywhere else?

It seems possible... and using microfiber or even nash clarino in high-wear spots for grip and durability inside the skate seems like a really good idea.

[tsanga 0]

I could see how the AirNet could seem slippery. Think nylon fabric (mesh shorts or jerseys) vs. microfiber suede, and the microfiber would seem to grip better. But if you think about it, nylon fabric is pretty darn durable.

Re: squishy lining - it does indeed feel "soft" when you touch it. To me it seems to be more a result of the fabric being pulled taut, and when you push into it, it stretches a bit. When the boot is laced up, to me this is a non-issue. Whatever underlying foam there is just compresses around the foot, the result being the foot is much closer to the stiff counter. Maybe the difference is I found the skates to fit my foot shape really well.

EDIT: BTW, in my skates where the foam has been compressed and shaped around my foot (e.g. heel, ankle bone, etc.), the AirNet doesn't feel squishy at all. In those areas, there's very little give before I hit the stiff wall of the boot. So the AirNet liner in-and-of-itself isn't terribly squishy.

[MLSman 22]

Talked to a rep in VA...kinda interested me in buying a pair myself. The rep told me you could pretty much get anything you want. Since a friend was looking into the 735, and he has a similar foot to mine, I tried them on. They were very comfortable. So I told the rep that I would want them the stiffest they could be, clarino liner, TPU outsole/insole, and pre-drilled for LS2s. The rep said no problem....about 12 weeks.

The only thing I forgot to ask about was the height of the boot. I am used to the height of the Vapor XXXX, but from trying them on, it was hard to tell if the boot was a lower boot. I am referring to the boot height...from the heel to the top of the boot...minus the tendon guard. Does anyone happen to know if there is a significant difference?

[bbruins8 0]

Talked to a rep in VA...kinda interested me in buying a pair myself. The rep told me you could pretty much get anything you want. Since a friend was looking into the 735, and he has a similar foot to mine, I tried them on. They were very comfortable. So I told the rep that I would want them the stiffest they could be, clarino liner, TPU outsole/insole, and pre-drilled for LS2s. The rep said no problem....about 12 weeks.

The only thing I forgot to ask about was the height of the boot. I am used to the height of the Vapor XXXX, but from trying them on, it was hard to tell if the boot was a lower boot. I am referring to the boot height...from the heel to the top of the boot...minus the tendon guard. Does anyone happen to know if there is a significant difference?

It might be about a half inch or so at most...but will be noticable...why did you go with the clarino liner? The new airnet lining system works rather well from my experiences.

[MLSman 22]

It might be about a half inch or so at most...but will be noticable...why did you go with the clarino liner? The new airnet lining system works rather well from my experiences.

What about the durability of the airnet liner? Is it as good or better?

[bbruins8 0]

It might be about a half inch or so at most...but will be noticable...why did you go with the clarino liner? The new airnet lining system works rather well from my experiences.

What about the durability of the airnet liner? Is it as good or better?

No signs of breakdown yet, only a few weeks of use though...but I'm a relatively strong skater. The stuff honestly seems like it won't breakdown...you know how sometimes you can just tell? I heard a few bad things about the Ultra line...but most of the bad things about them were coming off the Supra G line from last year...it appears so far a lot of that stuff was fixed because this boot is all around solid. Only thing wrong with them was the mounting of the holders...kinda warped a little bit on the back of one of them...but it's not that bad, and they are getting replace by t blades this week anyhow.