The advantages and disadvantages (or uses and abuses) of the VH

[Law Goalie 147]

Since this forum has been seeing a little more activity as of late, I thought I'd throw out a technical question for us to kick around.

At base, the V-H is a relatively new application of a very old move: the leg-drag. One knee snaps to the ice, laying the pad horizontal; the other leg remains vertical, keeping the skate-blade in contact with the ice. (Incidentally, the V-H is also an intermediary stage in transitioning to a butterfly slide from the stance, and in the backside recovery.) A couple of great illustrations, all of which focus on the use of the V-H in its primary role as a post-hug position, courtesy of Steve McKichan and Warren Strelow:

Strelow also suggests some quite strict limitations on the use of the V-H as 'post-load' position, which he diagrams as follows for USAH:

The red areas below the circles indicate where the puck should be before the V-H should be adopted; if the puck is outside there, he argues, the V-H is unnecessary and/or opens up egregious amounts of net.

So: who uses this, and how do they use it? Do you think Strelow's diagram is more or less accurate, or should it be expanded or limited in certain areas?

[Oykib 0]

I have tried to incorporate it myself but I don't have the size to use it effectively. I think with size it is better then standing up hugging the post.

[Law Goalie 147]

That is one of the major issues - if a goalie doesn't have a long torso, he risks giving up a ton of high short-side goal without even forcing the shooter to go bar-down. This is especially true on the blocker side, since the glove can't be stacked on top of the pad to eliminate the rest of the high net: it's just the short-side shoulder covering high.

That said, I'm only 5'11", and I've had decent success by restricting my use a little more, keeping it to much tighter plays. When I'm using it effectively, I generally limit it to the triangular part of Strelow's diagram closest to the posts, and a smaller patch below the goal-line. I really like the way it lets me get my glove involved in intercepting low, tight passes, and prevents accidental deflections on the short side.

I find my greatest problem is over-using it: dropping into it early and lazily, and getting sniped to the far high corner against skilled shooters with disguised releases, or getting settled in when the puck's below the goal-line, and encouraging a guy to sneak in and set up for a one-timer in the low slot.

[shooter27 116]

How about an opinion from a shooter's point of view:

To me, that move is much more effective when I'm on my backhand (right hand shot on the left side of the net from the goalie's perspective) because it is much harder to really pick that small upper area on the backhand and to get to the forehand requires that "question mark" type spin move to the forehand. On the other hand if I'm on the off wing (right side of the net from the goalie's perspective) its much easier for me to get the puck to the forehand and either hit the inside of the far post or a quick stretch across that changes the angle slightly but still lets me get off a good shot.

[Oykib 0]

How about an opinion from a shooter's point of view:

To me, that move is much more effective when I'm on my backhand (right hand shot on the left side of the net from the goalie's perspective) because it is much harder to really pick that small upper area on the backhand and to get to the forehand requires that "question mark" type spin move to the forehand. On the other hand if I'm on the off wing (right side of the net from the goalie's perspective) its much easier for me to get the puck to the forehand and either hit the inside of the far post or a quick stretch across that changes the angle slightly but still lets me get off a good shot.

The only real time I use it is when the puck is behind the net and I expect a quick shot from in front. I have 1/2 the net covered and is pretty easy to cover the rest if the pass goes across. I have had several pucks fired at my pad thinking it is where the 5 hole used to be.

[Law Goalie 147]

Oyk, that was exactly my reservation about Strelow's diagram: he doesn't want it used below the goal-line, period, and I find it incredibly useful against that kind of tap-in play you describe, both in terms of taking away the expected five-hole and getting the glove closer to the ice. My only reservation is that I find it more difficult to freeze a puck that's thrown into my vertical skate against the post, or into the side of the net. I feel like I have to really throw myself out of position to reach around, which I don't if I'm, say, paddle-down in the butterfly with my knee against the inside of the post (which of course leave the high short-side massively vulnerable).

The other neat thing about the V-H your mentioned, taking away the five-hole that the shooter thins should be there, is something I've seen a few of the most mobile butterfly goalies use against breakaways and 2-on-1s (especially Fleury, and Price, when he's on his game). Fleury in particular will challenge the shooter aggressively, and as he retreats, snap the far-side knee down into the V-H. Keeks' theory is that this is partially an attempt to throw off the shooter, giving him an unexpected look and taking him off his go-too move onto something secondary, while leaving the goalie in a relatively strong position, with the short-side angle more or less covered and the backside leg loaded to push across. On the other hand (literally), I've seen Price overuse it against off-wing shooters and get lit up, especially against left-handed shooters on his right side who just snap a quick Jussi Jokinen-style shot inside the post, sixteen-inches blocker-side.

The handedness of the shooter (on-wing, off-wing; forehand, backhand) absolutely plays into this - although it can play both ways, depending on how smart the shooter is, and how much time and space he has. I think shooter27's bang on to observe that, for a shooter on the backhand, unless he's unbelievably good and using a butter-knife for a blade (e.g. Crosby and Gretzky, hell even Brent Gretzky), going bar-down short-side is a pretty tall order. For any skilled shooter, taking the same shot on the forehand from his on-wing, or the far-side shot on his off-wing is far more attractive option. As #27 mentioned, the toe-drag from the on-wing forehand back towards the middle, shifting the shooting-triangle to open up the far-side, is equally dangerous since it forces the goalie either to commit to a butterfly slide across, or shift back to an upright stance to track the movement.

In fact, maybe that's not a bad way to think of the V-H. It isn't really a butterfly move - it's more of a shifted stance. It reminds me of something Tretiak wrote about in his book on goaltending, where he talked about himself and Tarasov coming up with his "crab stance." Basically, depending on the handedness, position and options of a shooter, Tretiak would shift his stance off-centre so that one leg was right under the shoulder, bent and loaded, and the other extended diagonally away from his body: a basically V-H, but without the knee fully down. Takes a ton of strength in the loaded leg, and an incredible level of situational intelligence, but it sure worked for him!

(P.S. Thanks for venturing into the goalie forum, shooter. Always nice to get things from the other perspective: same reason I make my wee goalies skate in front of big mirrors. :) )

[DCott 0]

I like it and don't like it. It works well for passes from the sides and corners to directly in front of the net, because that pad is already down, and is great for a fly push from the post. However, that's really the only move you have for a quick shot. If the pass goes to the point or slot, you've got to lift that leg to get on your feet, and then potentially go down again. I guess I'm old school in that I'd prefer to stay on my feet unless a shot is imminent.

I do find myself often using a similar stance in this situation, in which one pad is vertical with the post, and the other is not down, but still low and crouched. I find it allows me to go to the bfly slide, or move of my feet. I guess I'd call it VD (vertical/diagonal)?

[jcp2 2]

Sounds like Tretiak's crab stance, but against the post.

[Law Goalie 147]

...

It isn't really a butterfly move - it's more of a shifted stance. It reminds me of something Tretiak wrote about in his book on goaltending, where he talked about himself and Tarasov coming up with his "crab stance." Basically, depending on the handedness, position and options of a shooter, Tretiak would shift his stance off-centre so that one leg was right under the shoulder, bent and loaded, and the other extended diagonally away from his body: a basically V-H, but without the knee fully down. Takes a ton of strength in the loaded leg, and an incredible level of situational intelligence, but it sure worked for him!

...

I do find myself often using a similar stance in this situation, in which one pad is vertical with the post, and the other is not down, but still low and crouched. I find it allows me to go to the bfly slide, or move of my feet. I guess I'd call it VD (vertical/diagonal)?

Sounds like Tretiak's crab stance, but against the post.

I think we're all on the same page here - which is interesting, because I can't recall anyone talking about it in these terms before.

I rather like this way of thinking about the V-H: that it's an extreme version of a shifted stance, and its weaknesses should be evaluated as such. It's not simply a question of how much net you're filling up, but what of the net and how you can move out of it. A Greg Millen-style completely upright stance (knee together, ankles together) also works decently well against the post to fill the angle in the same areas Strelow highlights; limits the goalie's movements and options in different ways.

[docar15 1]

We may be confusing the two words here. In Russia (Soviet Union) in the 80s and early 90s butterfly saves were being called 'crab', actual Russian translation of the word butterfly itself was never used. This may add a perspective when reading Vladislav's book. Also, some of the body movements and hand positioning (i.e. upper body control when playing knees down) are from pre- Tretiak Tarasov days. Nikolai Puchkov has pioneered them. Never got fully recognized for what he did though. First Russian Olympic champion, selft taught himself five languages, has memorials dedicated to him in Sweden and Finlad, etc. Died alone in a one-bedroom apartment in Moscow… Oh well.

Sorry if I am off topic.

[Law Goalie 147]

Not remotely off-topic: terrific post. I'm just sorry I didn't get to it until now.

It's fascinating that the Russian word used to be 'crab' (is it a straight translation of 'butterfly' now?). While the static position and the save-movement itself may be a bit butterfly-esque, the lateral movements are much more crab-like than anything a butterfly does.

However, while there may be an issue in translation (I freely acknowledge) the section in Tretiak's book I'm referring to is one in which he's definitely describing a stance shifted to one side (ie. shifted or overloaded onto one leg more than the other, with the other partially extended), and in fact has several pictures of just that posture. It's halfway between a knee-down VH position and a normal crouched stance.

The emphasis seems to be on the 'stance' part of 'crab stance,' meaning a stance in which one is closer to the crab position, that is, to what we call the butterfly. It's a bit like current commentators saying that Lundqvist has a 'butterfly stance' because his feet are unusually far apart, allowing a slightly different set of mechanics and positions helpful to his butterfly play. I think what Tarasov and Tretiak were getting at was that this shifted 'crab stance' offered some advantages in getting to other crab-like positions, particularly in a situation where a shooter has a relatively low-angle scoring chance (eg. a right-handed shot coming down the right wing), and the play is likely to move across to the weak side.

Puchkov sounds like an extremely interesting athlete. Did he write anything, or have anything in-depth written about him? I suppose it would be too much to hope that his training (whether personally or what he coached) was ever taped... And just to be clear, you're saying he was actively training and teaching play from the butterfly/crab (knees down) as a base position, like a second stance? That's bloody fascinating. That would make him by far the earliest example on record. Even Glenn Hall only used the butterfly as a reactive save initiated from a crouched stance. I don't think it was until very late in Roy's career that he would stay down in a passive butterfly waiting for the next shot without recovering to his feet, and certainly not until much later that goalies began to make consistent lateral skating movements while down.

[docar15 1]

Mr. D, you are truly a gentleman and a scholarship :-).

Do you think this position history is still of interest to the folks?

Personally I would love to hear your opinion on some of the old Soviet pioneers and their teachings.

Огромное Спасибо!

[Law Goalie 147]

Cheers mate.

I actually found some really cool video of Puchkov in action, executing some of the crispest butterfly recoveries and T-pushes you'll ever see. I just need to remember where I put it and do a little editing...

The language barrier is an issue in my looking into the Soviet era, but I did find this very neat clip of Tretiak working with one of his goalie coaches, and it's relevant to this thread because of the way that he uses a sort of dynamic VH/knee-drop in the save-movement drills and against some shots in the 'Avery'/tip drill:

[IPv6Freely 2092]

I notice Reimer using this all the time.. sometimes when he shouldn't and being burned by it (usually by using it when the puck isn't in the red area in the above diagram).

[Law Goalie 147]

Yeah... that's the influence of Francois Allaire, and some plain old bad decision-making on Reimer's part. I'm not sure Strelow's diagram is 100% representative, but it's a pretty good guideline.

The issue isn't so much putting your body in this position; it's using it as a static blocking position on the post in a way that limits movement and opens up scoring options. For one thing, it's bloody hard to cover or smoother the puck from the VH, and moving out of it to get closer to the ice opens up all kinds of holes. The VH can be a very powerful athletic position, but like all such positions, it has some shortcomings.

[SEagle30 0]

I've incorporated this into my game and it's worked wonders for me. It's virtually impossible for a shooter to score from that terrible angle as it is but it does happen using the old style. Using the V-H I've had no problem with shooters scoring or getting any kind of chance down low. In order for it to work though you have to be relatively big. I would suggest that any goalie under 6 ft maybe even 5"11 shouldn't use it. I'm 6'4" so it's perfect for me. The only concern that I've had with it is exploding from the post out to the slot for a one-t. You have to get used to doing that and practice it quite a lot to make sure you can get there in time. Overall though I love it.

[Law Goalie 147]

A little bump for an earlier thread; kind of amazing how much the thinking has changed!

I should probably fix the photos...

[minnsy 15]

What's funny about this whole discussion is that it's caused me to re-incorporate the old stand up style "stand up and put your two pads together" save in sharp angle situations. Mostly because it got me thinking, and I'm now experimenting with different post coverage methods.