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Bravada 442

Help with Heel Lifts

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As was noted over in the TotalOne Initial Thoughts thread, I've gone from a RBK 9k skate (which is perfectly Neutral in terms of pitch with the E-Pro) to a TotalOne (which is more negative and has me on my heels).

Now, I'm thinking that I need a 1mm heel lift to get me right to where my RBK's were. But, in thinking about it, if I would put a lift between the holder and the boot, that would push the heel DOWN while keeping the forefoot in the same place which makes me think that I would now be more on my heels.

I'm having one of those nights where my brain just isn't working, can someone explain this more to me as to how the lift in the heel actually gets me more on my toes?

PS - I've tried adjusting to the rear pitch, but I can't. I can't stop falling, especially on forward and reverse crossovers.

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Well...to exaggerate my example...putting on heel lifts is kinda like women wearing high heels. It forces your entire body to lean forward since you will be put in a more aggressive stance.

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 I damn-near guarantee you will be quicker WITHOUT the heel lifts because you will be forced to engage in a forward lean and will consequently be faster. However, you will be slower for the first couple games, but you should be able to adjust within a few weeks. 

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 I damn-near guarantee you will be quicker WITHOUT the heel lifts because you will be forced to engage in a forward lean and will consequently be faster. However, you will be slower for the first couple games, but you should be able to adjust within a few weeks. 

I'm trying my best, but the crossovers are just killing me and only on the right foot (outside edge). I'm used to being a VERY swift skater and its by far my best part of my game and with my shot abandoning me a little the past couple weeks I have nothing to rely on and its killing my confidence.

Jumtao - Thanks. That was my problem, I'm thinking about it pushing the holder down instead of thinking of it pushing my foot up.

Just one of those nights.

Thanks guys.

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long story short: see my post in TO thread - I'm in a similar boat & am used to neutral pitch so I've just profiled TOs

negative pitch will NOT (can not) make you faster since you're not even in an athletic position with the weight on the balls of your feet

but putting a 1mm lift doesn't make sense either - there's tons of steel at the toe, just profile the skates

JR uses 3mm heel lift because he wants to be at +2, and there'd be WAY too much steel to shave to get there from the stock -1.

our case is different (and yes - I did consult with JR prior to doing that years ago :))

in addition profiling is cheaper then "lifting"

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long story short: see my post in TO thread - I'm in a similar boat & am used to neutral pitch so I've just profiled TOs

negative pitch will NOT (can not) make you faster since you're not even in an athletic position with the weight on the balls of your feet

but putting a 1mm lift doesn't make sense either - there's tons of steel at the toe, just profile the skates

JR uses 3mm heel lift because he wants to be at +2, and there'd be WAY too much steel to shave to get there from the stock -1.

our case is different (and yes - I did consult with JR prior to doing that years ago :) )

in addition profiling is cheaper then "lifting"

Is the TO really a full -1? Shiz, I figured it was actually slighter than that- my bad. Yeh, if that's true, profile that bad boy.

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 I damn-near guarantee you will be quicker WITHOUT the heel lifts because you will be forced to engage in a forward lean and will consequently be faster. However, you will be slower for the first couple games, but you should be able to adjust within a few weeks. 

I tried for a full season to get used to my One95's. Yes you get used to the pitch, but I never felt as comfortable in the Bauers as my CCMs. A friends son needed new skates, and I gave them to him and went back to the CCMs. They felt better right away. The boot was great, but the pitch or stance was just off for me. I would try Bauer again if someone was able to set them up to the same pitch as CCM. I would want a more permanent solution than profiling the steel. I would want both a heel lift and my steel profiled to the same radius as CCM. Unfortunately I know of no one here that can do that. On my next trip to the US I hope to get new skates, maybe then.

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I damn-near guarantee you will be quicker WITHOUT the heel lifts because you will be forced to engage in a forward lean and will consequently be faster. However, you will be slower for the first couple games, but you should be able to adjust within a few weeks

I would guarantee that an athletic balanced position for each individual is different. The idea that a stock set-up would be the position that makes everyone their fastest is just wrong.

If that theory was correct, skaters on Bauers would be faster than skaters on Reeboks who would be faster than Graf skaters. Doesn't hold water.

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  I think a negative profile is obviously too much to overcome for mot people, but if you can get used to a neutral profile and use the proper forward lean, I still believe that will help your explosiveness. Plenty of NHL'ers have no problem with it :lol:  

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Seriously, if you know nothing on a subject, don't throw out bad info just for the sake of posting.

Like I previously stated, the reason why I do heel lifts is because I want an aggressive stance and there is less steel on a Supreme as opposed to a Vapor.

However at the NHL level, all of the skates that I've have in TB has had regular LS steel and is profiled, or in some cases, lifted if they want to be more aggressive.

Adjusting to a stock radius is settling - why not tune it in what works for you?

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I'm having the same trouble. I'm coming from Grafs and I really liked that stance. It actually helped my skating quite a bit. I'm now lost on TOs and feel like I'm learning all over again. I've had my steel profiled to, what the sharpener called +1.5%, not sure what that means or where it puts me in terms of the Grafs.

If I want to mimic the Graf stance as close as possible, do I need a lift as well? My LHS is not the best and I'm not sure they can really help me move forward in getting the feel I'm looking for.

Any input JR?

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Not enough...

Every + or - is 1/32" in whatever direction. If Graf is +1 from neutral, and TO is -1 from neutral, you'd need +2 from TO to get you to +1 from neutral.

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I'm making the same transition and had much the same experience. JR suggested 1.5mm lifts which helped a ton. I'm also going to profile a +1, but the lifts were key.

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    A real critical part of being fast is getting yourself on your toes and leaning forward. How could using something to do this for you be as good as having your own strong technique? I can understand if you're talking about being a full -1, okay, that's making you overcompensate, but if you're comparing neutral to +2, you're having material/equipment doing the work your body should be doing, e.g. you're not maximizing your stance so you aren't involving as many muscles. Nobody else sees the validity in this, even if only from a theoretical standpoint?   

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Not enough...

Every + or - is 1/32" in whatever direction. If Graf is +1 from neutral, and TO is -1 from neutral, you'd need +2 from TO to get you to +1 from neutral.

So having it profiled to where it is, would you recommend a lift now as well or try to keep doing it with profiling? I also notice the Graf boot is more forward lean, would a lift sort of simulate that a bit?

You say you do 3mm for the aggressive stance you cant get from profiling. Is that stance you like more aggressive than Graf, or would the lift work for me?

I dont want to derail this post, but would like your input and help here. PM me if you dont want to do it in the thread. I'd really appreciate the help.

Thanks.

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It is the same concept as lies on a stick.

Maybe you'll understand it now.

You tweak it to what works to you. That is why I'm in what I am in, and that's why others are in what they are in.

    A real critical part of being fast is getting yourself on your toes and leaning forward. How could using something to do this for you be as good as having your own strong technique? I can understand if you're talking about being a full -1, okay, that's making you overcompensate, but if you're comparing neutral to +2, you're having material/equipment doing the work your body should be doing, e.g. you're not maximizing your stance so you aren't involving as many muscles. Nobody else sees the validity in this, even if only from a theoretical standpoint?   

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    A real critical part of being fast is getting yourself on your toes and leaning forward. How could using something to do this for you be as good as having your own strong technique? I can understand if you're talking about being a full -1, okay, that's making you overcompensate, but if you're comparing neutral to +2, you're having material/equipment doing the work your body should be doing, e.g. you're not maximizing your stance so you aren't involving as many muscles. Nobody else sees the validity in this, even if only from a theoretical standpoint?   

So if this was true, Custom+ would be the fastest holders, right? :facepalm:

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I'm in a Graf 735 with LS2 holders.

If I was to pick up a pair of One95s, and wanted to maintain the exact same pitch as my current setup, what would I require?

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    A real critical part of being fast is getting yourself on your toes and leaning forward. How could using something to do this for you be as good as having your own strong technique? I can understand if you're talking about being a full -1, okay, that's making you overcompensate, but if you're comparing neutral to +2, you're having material/equipment doing the work your body should be doing, e.g. you're not maximizing your stance so you aren't involving as many muscles. Nobody else sees the validity in this, even if only from a theoretical standpoint?   

thats false logic. involving more muscles can cause undue fatigue. you'll decrease performance like that.

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So if this was true, Custom+ would be the fastest holders, right? :facepalm:

That doesn't address my point at all.

thats false logic. involving more muscles can cause undue fatigue. you'll decrease performance like that.

How could proper skating technique cause undue fatigue? I can understand if a skate has a negative pitch and you're a forward, you at least want it back to neutral. Otherwise, it seems to be designed to save energy, not improve performance, right? I think it's just that players want what they had before, not necessarily because it's any better- that's my point. And if you're going to use the same thing forever, how can you get better, how do you know if the heel lift is helping you or just a crutch?

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Well, in that case you should probably call the Sharks and tell Pavelski that his forward pitched Grafs and Cobra holders are just a crutch and he isnt using proper technique if he continues to use those and rely on them to be a good skater.

Boy, that really sounds silly, doesnt it?

I improved my skating when I went to Grafs and the position they put me in. Crutch or not, I dont really care, I'm 39, dont think I'll ever make pro at this point, I play for fun in a beer league and noticed an improvement in my skating. Why should I not want to duplicate that with the new skates?

If it takes a profile and a properly sized heel lift to get me back to the same feel I'm comfortable with, I'm totally OK with that and dont see it as a crutch.

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How could proper skating technique cause undue fatigue? I can understand if a skate has a negative pitch and you're a forward, you at least want it back to neutral. Otherwise, it seems to be designed to save energy, not improve performance, right? I think it's just that players want what they had before, not necessarily because it's any better- that's my point. And if you're going to use the same thing forever, how can you get better, how do you know if the heel lift is helping you or just a crutch?

you're twisting my words. putting a person into a stance that requires more muscles will use more energy. this will tire a person out sooner.

if you were to say a skate with a negative pitch can "at least" be brought up to neutral, what's to say that person can't go even further and have a positive pitch.

accelerating in hockey is like sprinting. biomechanically, when you sprint there is no heel contact. it makes sense to have a forward pitch if you play aggressively (read: sprint a lot) in hockey.

but, this is entirely preference. everyone has a different style and varying skating techniques.

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you're twisting my words. putting a person into a stance that requires more muscles will use more energy. this will tire a person out sooner.

if you were to say a skate with a negative pitch can "at least" be brought up to neutral, what's to say that person can't go even further and have a positive pitch.

accelerating in hockey is like sprinting. biomechanically, when you sprint there is no heel contact. it makes sense to have a forward pitch if you play aggressively (read: sprint a lot) in hockey.

but, this is entirely preference. everyone has a different style and varying skating techniques.

Thank you for a well written response and thought out argument. It's an interesting question though, if it saves energy in sprinting etc, does it require more for a full stride?

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you're twisting my words. putting a person into a stance that requires more muscles will use more energy. this will tire a person out sooner.

if you were to say a skate with a negative pitch can "at least" be brought up to neutral, what's to say that person can't go even further and have a positive pitch.

accelerating in hockey is like sprinting. biomechanically, when you sprint there is no heel contact. it makes sense to have a forward pitch if you play aggressively (read: sprint a lot) in hockey.

but, this is entirely preference. everyone has a different style and varying skating techniques.

Sprinting is not like accelerating in hockey--there are some similarities in having forward lean but biomechanically they are different. Think about how many great skaters over the years there have been that have been on Custom+, old school holders, etc. I think it's all personal preference. Skates and lifts don't make you faster--your skating technique, your off ice workout routine and sometimes even genetics are a bigger contributer.

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i'm not gonna argue that equipment and setup will make you faster, but perhaps more efficient. in some sense, you could say that does make you faster, but thats not the point i'm trying to make.

i would argue though, that a hockey start is very similar to sprinting, except for the toes being pointed outwards. there is a definitely a similarity in that there is no heel contact in both, and most of the power comes from a thrust through the balls of the feet.

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