Thinking of playing in goal

[jcp2 2]

Last week I borrowed a friend's goalie gear to give goalie a try during an ice time that we rent for pick-up, and despite feeling really clumsy and awkward, I'm thinking of playing goalie for a beginner team as their regular goalie is moving. There is this deal on Craigslist that has the following for $675:

34 inch Vaughn Vision Bioflex leg pads (these are all Leather, not the Mesh that others have) Bauer mask, Brown Chest Protector w/ Vaughn Neck Guard, Bauer Reactor Pants with Knee Gaurds, Vaughn Vision T5500 Pro Trapper, Vaughn Legacy B4000 Blocker, brand new Heaton Helite Stick, Bauer Skates size 10.

The skates are definitely way too big, but I think I can fit the pads. My ATK is 17" and the pads I'm borrowing now (TPS Xceed 33") seem to fit to the best of my knowledge. Is the package above a good deal? Are the pads obsolete? Should I stick with playing out?

[Machinehead2k5 32]

If it's truly a beginner league, like the one where I play in here in Atlanta where people fall down, have bad shooting ability, nobody really has a cannon except for a couple of people, then the gear doesn't look all that bad to use. But make sure your helmet and chest protector are not cracked/torn in key areas.

I'm sure the experienced goalie guys on this board can chime in better, as I was once in your shoes playing out and decided to play in net because one of my friends' teams goalie quit on them in the middle of the season.

The Gear I had:

Mask: 09 Itech Mask also used a crappy white Itech mask for one game

Chest/Arm: JR Large Brian's

Pants: Penguins Pro Stock Skater Pants

Skates: My Nike Quest 1s

Blocker: NB Vapors

Glove: NB Vapors

Pads: NB Vapors or my old Brian's AirPac Pads

Stick: Prostock Johan Hedberg Sherwood and prostock Ondrej Pavelec RBK

[Law Goalie 147]

I would advise extreme caution on that Bauer mask until you have more information.

The pants, C/A and trapper are all first-rate, provided they fit well; the blocker is OK, provided the palm is in great condition, free of stink and holes. Whether or not the stick will work is entirely dependent on whether the paddle-height and lie work for you in both stance and butterfly.

The pads are another matter. They will, of course, be perfectly protective and durable, but they will function nothing like the Xceeds you tried. The Vaughn Bioflex will not rotate around the leg or slide in the butterfly the way the Xceeds will. They may have synthetic leather on the medial (inside) gusset, rather than Cordura or some other form of woven nylon (which you called 'Mesh'), but the knee and calf are not designed to play the way the Xceeds and other modern pads are. If you want to play like Billy Smith or Grant Fuhr - lots of split- and kick-saves, using the butterfly only as a save - they'll do fine. If you want to use any of the new butterfly and down-movement techniques, you'll need a pair of pads built for that.

If your ATK really is 17" (it's easy to be off by a bit), I'm a little surprised that 33" Xceeds fit perfectly. The 34" Vaughn pads will probably fit you; whether or not they will perform the way you intend is another matter.

In my experience, it's almost never worth it to buy complete sets of gear. You'll do far better picking individual pieces that work best for you. It's easy to talk yourself into a pile of compromises you'll regret down the road for the ease of getting it all in one place.

[jcp2 2]

If your ATK really is 17" (it's easy to be off by a bit), I'm a little surprised that 33" Xceeds fit perfectly.

I well may be off in terms of measuring (I followed the photo on GSBB), and I may be off in terms of fit. All I know is that it "looked" okay. Also, the squirt goalie at the other end made more saves.

[Law Goalie 147]

Being bested by striplings is half the fun. :)

Don't be too concerned about the numbers if you can try things on in person. ATK and the now more commonplace FTK (floor-to-knee) are good ways to get a rough sense of what you should be trying on, and aren't bad rules of thumb (if you'll pardon the anatomical mixed metaphor) for buying online.

That said, with a modern pad like the Xceed (that is, one designed to rotate around the leg from stance to butterfly with minimal resistance), getting the right fit at the knee is crucial. Because the pad won't be tightly strapped to your leg, your knee will move around a fair bit as a matter of course. If the knee of the pad is too high, you'll end up falling off the bottom of the knee-block when you butterfly; vice versa if the knee of the pad is too short. And I'm just talking about a simple drop from stance to butterfly, here: once you start trying butterfly transitions (moving from stance to a sliding butterfly) or straight down-movement in the butterfly, fit issues at the knee are compounded.

Again, what this really comes down to is how you want to play. If you want to get into butterfly slides, you'll need a pad built for that.

[Machinehead2k5 32]

Bashing your knee into the ice b/c it misses the knee stack/block isn't fun.

[SidCaeser 0]

I had a friend offer me a similar package, and what I've found you can troll ebay and find great deals. A pair of Vaughn Velocity 7000 goalie pants went for $2.25 today. I grabbed a pair of Bauer skates for $40 and Simmons Air 991 pads for $70. It's enticing to go after the package, because you get everything.

I started playing last August, and I didn't want to drop a ton of cash on everything that I wanted. I know the pads are not the best, especially for how I'm finding out how I play, but I found out that I needed a better trapper and blocker first. A quality helmet is a priority, as well. I'm going to get new pads after Christmas. That's just my two cents.

[Law Goalie 147]

Great summary and examples, Sid. Those Velocity pants are about two sizes too small for me, and I'm sworn on the old Cooper Reactor (aka Bauer Reactor aka Bauer Vapor...) design, but it still hurt my heart to see them go for that.

The mask really is the one place to splurge - and you don't even have to go that far. For about $300, you can get a retail mask with a lifetime warranty that's arguably superior to the Itech 960/961/9600/9601 pro masks (that is, the Hackva), or you can get a custom-fitted mask from the guy who makes the Reebok-branded masks for Luongo, Brodeur, and a half dozen other NHLers, and countless other pros who came through Quebec (Michel Doganieri of Protechsport). That's my baseline for any mask decision.

[jcp2 2]

I well may be off in terms of measuring (I followed the photo on GSBB), and I may be off in terms of fit. All I know is that it "looked" okay. Also, the squirt goalie at the other end made more saves.

Going back and rechecking, my ATK is still 17". Fitting the pads to my legs (without equipment, but guesstimating how they would fit with skates on) I see that my knees are below the landing gear, so Law Goalie, you are probably correct. The Xceeds are likely too large for me. I may have not noticed this last time I played because I currently use the flopping spaz style, but I'm playing again tonight. I'll check the fit again before I skate, not that it would make any difference.

Edit: After putting on the skates, my knees ARE in the knee cradle and the landing gear pads are in the right spot.

[Law Goalie 147]

Ah, yes, skates would be important to that fit; goalie skates are much preferred when trying on.

If your knee sits in the cradle in a deep crouch and lands correctly every time you butterfly, they are indeed the right size.

Bear in mind, however, that this doesn't mean you're a 33 in all pads - you could be a 34 or 35 in Vaughn and a 32 in Sherwood or Reebok.

[jcp2 2]

Ah, yes, skates would be important to that fit; goalie skates are much preferred when trying on.

If your knee sits in the cradle in a deep crouch and lands correctly every time you butterfly, they are indeed the right size.

Bear in mind, however, that this doesn't mean you're a 33 in all pads - you could be a 34 or 35 in Vaughn and a 32 in Sherwood or Reebok.

I'm going to keep borrowing the pads for now. I've got a Flite C/A on the way from eBay (relabeled McKenney, poor man's Brown?) and a Maltese combo on order from Maltese Hockey. Off to get a decent goalie jock and to look at some masks. I'm tempted to get the Hackva with the Maltese gel as a packages, but the one I'm borrowing, a Sportmask Mage (the newer one with the thinner chin) fits well on my head.

I figure the pants, skates, pads, trapper and blocker can all be gotten in bits and pieces used along the way.

As an aside, I was at the clinic in net rather than skating out last night. The shooting drills were really physically draining. The scrimmage was much easier to handle, as I got a break when the play was in the other end.

[jcp2 2]

So the setup is almost complete. Got used pants and skates at Play it Again, a set of RBK PSII Pro pads and blocker from Ebay, a Velocity 3 trapper from Ebay, and a Hackva mask on order. Tried them out tonight and apparently there must be a huge defect in the equipment as the puck kept on going between my legs.

The pads fit well. They are 32" and my knee hits the landing gear. The large black flappy thing at the top sometimes gets caught under my pants and I have to hop around a bit sometimes.

I can see that being a goalie gear whore as being far more satisfying than a player gear whore. Everything is so much bigger.

[Law Goalie 147]

Whoa, I completely missed your last update. That sounds like a very nice setup.

Excellent choice on the Hackva. Did you end up going with the stock foam model or the Maltese?

The Flite C/A (if it's the newer one I'm thinking of) should in fact be a McKenney, which is indeed a 'poor man's Brown,' meaning good enough for anyone who isn't going to routinely face shots in the 90+mph range.

One way to remedy that unfortunate 'puck between the knees' defect (from which we all suffer) is to spend more time in the butterfly than out of it. There are some really neat videos on Youtube showing the puck's perspective, and it's amazing how much of the available net is between your ankles, and how little of the net your upper body is actually protecting unless you're way back in your net, in an insanely deep crouch, or about 4'6" on skates.

As far as the thigh-boards (those big black flappy things attached to the back of the top of the pad) are concerned, you can simply remove them. They're attached with a short length of 3mm cord: just undo the knot and pull it out. If you intend to do this, however, make sure you buy a good set of knee-pads. The purpose of thigh-boards is to prevent pucks that sneak past the top of the pad itself (aka the 'thigh rise') and would otherwise smack you in the knee, leaving you hobbled for a week or worse. Dislocated patellae are not fun. That said, knee-pads are both more protective (in most cases) and allow superior mobility. Brown makes the best ones, IMO, but they ain't cheap. Whatever you get, make sure it's comfortable, and has a significant amount of protection at the front of the knee. The one design to be a little wary of is the 'ball socket' design, which has been used by a ton of companies: Koho/Reebok, most famously, but also TPS, Bauer, Itech, and a few others. These are distinguishable by the large demi-sphere of black plastic over the knee-cap. Some people love them; some people beat the hell out of their knees, so definitely try before you buy.

If you think the whoring is bad, wait until you get into the modding...

A word or two about those shooting drills:

They are exhausting and really unhelpful for goalies: they suck for self-instruction, and they suck even more as a warm-up. In fact, if you watch NHL goalies in warm-ups, they usually won't even try to make saves when the shooters are coming in one after another. Part of this is protection - if they stretch to make one save, they're not braced for the impact of the next one - part of it is energy conservation, and part of it is that it really doesn't matter. What they *will* do is use this firing-squad to warm up their eyes and neck to track the puck, to get hit a few times, and maybe every once in a while make a save-movement, provided the next shoote rin line isn't already bearing down on them.

If guys start trying to deke you in situations like this, where the next guy is already coming on hard, just ignore them. They're wasting your time.

[jcp2 2]

What they *will* do is use this firing-squad to warm up their eyes and neck to track the puck, to get hit a few times, and maybe every once in a while make a save-movement.

If guys start trying to deke you in situations like this, where the next guy is already coming on hard, just ignore them.

I do this all this time, even in games.

I went for the Hackva with the foam. Gabe is out of gel right now, and I want to make sure the shell fits. Thanks for the advice on the knee pads. I'll take a look at them next time I'm in a goalie store. I am going to be in Toronto this weekend, via London, but the only person in my family who wants to try on gear is me.

[Law Goalie 147]

The only place I know that carries Brown's full line (incl. the knee-pads) is The Goalie Crease, which is considerably north of the city proper, in Richmond Hill. It is, however, probably the best goalie-specific store in the area; Goalie Heaven, Duke's Source for Sports, Majer Hockey, and Just Hockey SFS are also good, but a little less comprehensive.

[jcp2 2]

I ended up convincing the family to humor me and allow a quick stop into Goalie Heaven. Hey, it's just down the street from the ROM, and we are members! What was supposed to be a quick stop in to take a peek turned into a discussion of the thigh board problem. I ended up getting their in house thigh wraps to lace into my pads in place of the thigh boards, some webbing to sew onto the back of the pants in case I went back to thigh boards, and a caveat about knee guards and pad rotation. I also got a lesson from Andre about the proper toe tie length, toe tie lacing along the cowling, and the appropriate tightness for the boot strap (tight). It was well worth the trip. We'll see if it pays off later this week.

[Law Goalie 147]

Great store eh? I used to be in there pretty regularly (it's very near my place), but I've had to start going to Duke's for FBV.

Those are the GH Knee-Savers, right? They can be laced either into the pads or your pants, and if you're capable of sewing a webbing loop onto your pants for your thigh-board strap, adding a little tab to the bottom of your pants is no more challenging.

In my experience, it's way more effective to attach knee-pads to pants. There's a simple reason for this: the pads rotate, and the pants don't. If you lace a knee-pad or thigh-wrap to the back of the pad, it's attaching at right-angles to where it will need to be once the pad rotates.

Andre was absolutely right to advise caution about the interaction of pads and knee-pads -- and I'd add the pants to the mix as well. All three have to be working together well, or you'll start running into problems. The most common one is having the outside of the pants pushing against the lateral (outside) gusset of the pads in the butterfly, tipping the pad away from your leg and causing what appears to be 'under-rotation.' That's just one of the many ways your gear can snooker itself.

I do have a few words of caution about the toe-ties and boot-strap. Having talked with Andre before, I recall that he prefers a relatively snug set-up. There are, however, a few extremely good biomechanical reason to leave things loose. Not using enough slack or cranking the boot-strap down can put unbelievable strain on your MCL, which limits the rotation of your tibia between your ankle and knee. For an incredibly flexible person, this isn't a big deal (until they age); for most people, it's a recipe for MCL damage ranging from gradually debilitating to suddenly catastrophic. Most goalies, in fact, use way too little slack in their toe-ties between skate and pad. Once you start twisting the leg against its tolerances, everything from the ankle through the knee to the hip and lower back can start to go.

All of this is especially relevant to your PS2 pads. I posted in another guy's thread recently:

As McD suggested, you need to think of Reeboks as being a solid immovable object from the knee down -- they are. An extremely large, powerful goalie (we're talking a 200+lbs professional) who uses his pads hard will eventually twist the boot a little, but only at some cost to his body. The Lefebvre/Reebok design doesn't break in - it breaks YOU in. The shin is constructed of several layers of very high-density foam laminated at right-angles to an EPE (expanded polyethylene) core to form a basically immovable plank. The boot, as I mentioned, is a little softer, but still three to four times stiffer than a Velocity boot. The boot-break is basically an illusion: you'll get maybe three degrees of movement, if any, based on the material tolerance, and it will never break down. So instead of a pad that moves with your leg, a Reebok is a pad that is designed to float in front of your leg.

More to the point, you don't even necessarily need toe-ties or boot-straps. I've played without one or the other (but not both) for extended skates with no problems. All they're really there to do is to prevent your foot from moving too far away from the pad. What you want, ideally, is full range of natural movement, with the toe-tie and boot-strap there to prevent your foot from moving beyond that range, eg. out from behind the pad, exposing your foot to a shot.

[jcp2 2]

Actually, not the knee savers. Without seeing my pads, he recommended that I not get them. What he had for me, at least for now, are thigh wraps that lace into the pad in place of the thigh board, like the Brian's ones, but without the little circular ears that can get caught on the pad during a rotation. They are made in house as well. I think the reason was that the pads that I have are 32 + 3 (so I'm told by the previous owner) and that the extra length in conjunction with my pants could interfere with the knee savers. I do have tabs on my pants for lacing stuff into, but they came with nothing attached. We'll see if I make the move later.

The toe tie lesson was to give a lot of slack at the toe (2-3 inches, up to 5-6 if preferred), put the boot strap in the rear hole of the cowling and tighten (I was using the middle hole, loosely), and then run the toe tie through the whole cowling length and tie up snugly up front, through skate eyelets ideally. The concept was that in the butterfly position, the boot strap would loosen up a bit but still hold the heel snugly, while the toe can rotate downwards freely to reduce strain on the knee. In a recovery from the butterfly, the support of the rear bootstrap and the toe tie lacing along the length of the cowling should give some sort of mechanical advantage (I was a bit zoned out at this point, having my children run into the store looking for a bathroom), and as a bonus reduce wear along the inside pad boot.

Ideally, I should have brought my setup in for his advice; I don't know of a similar service available in SE Michigan, but the smell of the gear would be the dealbreaker for the family and possibly set off some alarms at the border. It was a good vacation though, great store, no line at the HHOF on Monday AM for anything, including the cup. As luck would have it, we did stop in London for fish and chips, and "coincidentally" passed by the London Source for Sports store, which also had a really nice goalie section.

[McDougalfaschnitzer 32]

I also echo the looser boot strap practice. It makes for less effort getting your blade to the ice when pushing, as well as all the body stress stuff mentioned before.

I've experimented with no toe ties, and and changing the location of the bootstrap to the different holes in the skate as well as wrapping it around the back of the boot like Lundqvist does. They all work, but it just comes down to what is comfortable for you. We all have a way of how we do things, but no matter how well something may work for me, it could be completely different for you :)