Butterfly Transition Goalie- Need Equip Help!

[premieraw 0]

Hey All-

Another newb to the forum here, bear with me. So i've been playing net about 10 years now as a dedicated old-school stand-up goalie. Now that the time has come to replace the old pads, i'm considering switching into a butterfly model and attempting to learn the style. With that said, my first dumb question is this- when the pads rotate into the butterfly position, where does/should the goalie's knee end up? It seems to me that the knee would end up square on the ice, which would be bad for a variety of reasons. The pads i've looked as thus far don't appear have an extra pad or support to prevent this from happening, so i assume i'm thinking about the butterfly entirely wrong...Also, what is the purpose the mega-padded thigh guard? All of the models i've been looking at have a TON of support here, again not too sure why.

Final question- i'm looking at the following sets of pads, your general thoughts/opinons/suggestions would be fab..I'm playing in a men's "A" division beer league if that helpds. Thanks everyone!

Louisville TPS X-hale

Bauer XR8

Bauer Vapor X55

Eagle Infinity

Bauer Refle RX8

[jcp2 2]

There should be a knee wing that has a thick padded rectangle or a bunch of thinner padded rectangles on the inside of the knees. This is what my knee lands on. I'm still working on getting the pad straps just right so I land on this every time while the pads does it's rotation thingy.

[docar15 1]

Quick question. All of the pads you mention below are not what I would consider a pure "pro-fly" or pure butterfly type. Are you looking for a more flexible pad that would still rotate when you are making a butterfly save, yet will still let you use your legs and reflexes for more reaction type saves?

If you are looking for a transitional pad, out of all the pads you mentioned, I have and love the X:55 in soft flex. Second break helps with my old fart knees for sure. I wear PAW knee pads, no thighboards or thighwraps, so in those, I am almost 4+ inches off the ice. Much easier for less flexible types. I got my X:55s from GM. Have not compared them to the X:50, I think the only difference is a calf wrap and some graphics stitched on. For reference, I ended up with these X:55s coming from Brown Excel pads. For the record, I do like an 11" pad alot, for skating, movement, etc., long list.

[premieraw 0]

Quick question. All of the pads you mention below are not what I would consider a pure "pro-fly" or pure butterfly type. Are you looking for a more flexible pad that would still rotate when you are making a butterfly save, yet will still let you use your legs and reflexes for more reaction type saves?

If you are looking for a transitional pad, out of all the pads you mentioned, I have and love the X:55 in soft flex. Second break helps with my old fart knees for sure. I wear PAW knee pads, no thighboards or thighwraps, so in those, I am almost 4+ inches off the ice. Much easier for less flexible types. I got my X:55s from GM. Have not compared them to the X:50, I think the only difference is a calf wrap and some graphics stitched on. For reference, I ended up with these X:55s coming from Brown Excel pads. For the record, I do like an 11" pad alot, for skating, movement, etc., long list.

Exactly. I would like a pad that will allow me retain most of the reaction saves i do now in addition to allowing me the option to tryout some butterfly. Do you find that the X55 allows for this? Are you primiarly a butterfly goalie? Do the pads come with the proper padding in order to (safely) execute a butterfly save? Also, how comfortable are pads generally? I'm looking at 35's...If i want to (at least try) using the pad for butterfly, would you recommend the soft flex? Thanks, i appreciate your thoughts.

[McDougalfaschnitzer 32]

I'd say the X:55 might be a good pad to transition with. It has all the parts to perform butterfly moves (You'd be hard pressed to find a new pad that wasn't custom made that doesn't have the knee/calf landers required for butterflying) and still has classic design elements that will make you feel a bit more at home with the techniques you are still used to. Seems like the soft flex would serve you well.

[premieraw 0]

Great, thanks for the input everyone, i really appreciate it. Next question- Assuming i buy the X55's, will i need "kneepads" in order to perform the butterfly? Also, what is a "flex toe" and do you recommend i spend the extra $$ to have one installed? Thanks!

[premieraw 0]

So i'm hearing good things (mostly) about the Bauer X55's, (leg pads) but i can't get over how they cheap they are, especially when compared with the X60's. (about a $300 price difference) What gives?

[JR Boucicaut 3802]

No need for redundant threads when you already have started one.

[Gwyren 0]

The basics of it is that X:60s are considered "pro" level while X:55s are considered "senior" level. The X:60 should be more durable and last longer, at a minimum.

[Law Goalie 147]

With that said, my first dumb question is this- when the pads rotate into the butterfly position, where does/should the goalie's knee end up? It seems to me that the knee would end up square on the ice, which would be bad for a variety of reasons. The pads i've looked as thus far don't appear have an extra pad or support to prevent this from happening, so i assume i'm thinking about the butterfly entirely wrong... Also, what is the purpose the mega-padded thigh guard? All of the models i've been looking at have a TON of support here, again not too sure why.

[...]

Louisville TPS X-hale

Bauer XR8

Bauer Vapor X55

Eagle Infinity

Bauer Refle RX8

Believe me, it's not a dumb question. It's one of the most confusing things for any goalie to figure out. The answer, physically speaking, is simple: the pads *don't* rotate around your knee. The pads stay facing forward the entire time; your knee rotates behind the pad, from having the patella point forward to having it point down towards the ice. The second component of this rotation is a hard drive of the knees down towards the ice and in toward each other. This knee-drive is what fires the pads down towards the ice. When you get up, exactly the opposite happens: your knee (just one at a time, usually, in the modern butterfly game) snaps back up off the ice, so that the patella points forward again. This is why modern pads are so loose: the pad has to float a little off the leg in order for the leg to rotate behind it.

What's odd is that every single pad you have listed *does* have those knee-pads, so I think you do have a couple of misconceptions

To illustrate, here are a couple of pictures courtesy of Pete Smith of Smith Hockey, who invented the Velocity pad while he was working at Vaughn, and more or less kicked-off the whole modern butterfly pad revolution:

This an anterior view of an inch-perfect butterfly. I say 'perfect' for two main reasons: first, because the pads are nearly perpendicular to the ice, forming a 90-degree wall; second, because the tops of the pads (the thigh-rises) are nearly flush together in the five-hole. No pucks are getting through that.

Note also that the goalie's thighs (his actual legs, that is, inside the pants) are aimed more or less straight down behind the pad.

And here's the posterior view of the same butterfly.

You can see here that the knee (and the knee-cap specifically) is resting on three visible layers: one grey, one black, and another grey. The grey layer (the outside of which is facing the ice, aka the black void in this picture) is the 'knee-wing'. The black layer is the 'knee-block,' which can also be comprised of individual layers of foam wrapped in nylon or synthetic leather, which are then referred to as 'knee-stacks'. The upper grey layer is part of a J-shaped foam pad that wraps around the knee, usually with the aid of an elastic Velcro strap, and is generally called the 'knee-cradle'.

Here's another shot showing the knee-wing and the calf-wing along the medial (inside) aspect of the leg:

And here's one showing the 'leg-channel' including the knee-cradle:

And, just for fun, a couple of action-shots showing Carey Price's right knee sitting square on his knee, cradle, with great-big knee-pads inside his socks, and Roberto Luongo pushing off to his right, showing us all the snow that's built up on his knee-wing from butterfly sliding:

What I'm afraid I still don't understand is what you mean by "the mega-padded thigh guard."

Exactly. I would like a pad that will allow me retain most of the reaction saves i do now in addition to allowing me the option to tryout some butterfly. Do you find that the X55 allows for this? Are you primiarly a butterfly goalie? Do the pads come with the proper padding in order to (safely) execute a butterfly save? Also, how comfortable are pads generally? I'm looking at 35's...If i want to (at least try) using the pad for butterfly, would you recommend the soft flex? Thanks, i appreciate your thoughts.

Any pad, really, should allow you to perform all your reactionary stand-up style saves, and all will, as noted above, allow you to perform butterfly with a hard knee-drive. Hell, I'm demoing Warrior Messiahs and I still threw an actual skate-save out the other day.

As I said above, all pads will come with the proper padding. The issue is that most pads don't come with anything beyond the proper padding, ie. the knee-wing, knee-block, and knee-cradle. You still need a pair of separate knee-pads (or ones built into the pads), or at least some sort knee/thigh protection attached to the pads. Many pads come with these 'thigh board' or 'thigh guards', but I frankly find them useless and very restrictive to movement.

The only part of the pad that 'soft flex' refers to is from the knee up, and specifically the breaks in the foam core of the pad below the knee (the 'knee break' or lower) and above the knee ('thigh break' or upper). You haven't mentioned in this thread what pads you're currently using, but from what you've said, my guess is that they're extremely soft and flexible all around, but especially so at the ankle, and from the knee up. This is important for two reasons. First, (referring back to the second picture I posted from Smith) if you don't have the ability to separate your ankles widely, as Smith's model is doing, you need the tops of the pads to bend/curve around your knees in order to protect your knees and cover the five-hole; otherwise, the pads will stick straight out ahead of your knees at a slight angle, like open barn doors, allowing any puck to go right through and smash your knee. (Even with a very flexible thigh-rise, you still need the backup of knee-pads - believe me.)

The second issue is that a very stick upper part of the pad will feel extremely unnatural for a goalie who's used to soft, flexible pads. You'll feel like a very stiff pad (Reeboks', Warrior's, etc.) will resist your every movement, and doubly so if you still insist on doing your straps up relatively tight for comfort. You will probably want a pad with an extremely flexible thigh-rise - so flexible that you can push it up and down with two fingers in the store.

Great, thanks for the input everyone, i really appreciate it. Next question- Assuming i buy the X55's, will i need "kneepads" in order to perform the butterfly? Also, what is a "flex toe" and do you recommend i spend the extra $$ to have one installed? Thanks!

You don't need knee-pads to perform the butterfly; you need them to protect your knees in case they skip out of the pads' knee-cradle and hit the ice (which will swell up beautifully before you can even bet off the ice), and to protect your knees from pucks that sneak past the thigh-rise (the top of the pad).

Flex-Toe is an overpriced and gimmicky method of attaching the toe of your skate to the toe of your pad using elastic cord (aka 'shock cord' or dynamic cord). In reality, for about $3 at an REI (MEC if you're in Canada) or other outdoor/climbing store, you can buy the elastic cord and a few Cord-Locs, and accomplish in about three minutes exactly the same thing that Flextoe charges $30 for - and they aren't even using the best hardware or giving you spares in case something breaks.

Elastic cord is a very good way of attaching skate to pad at the toe, there's just no excuse for commercialising it and doing a poor job of it.

So i'm hearing good things (mostly) about the Bauer X55's, (leg pads) but i can't get over how they cheap they are, especially when compared with the X60's. (about a $300 price difference) What gives?

The X55's are, as others have said, great senior-level pads. Both they and the X60 pro-level pads were made offshore. Most of the materials are identical, but the X55's do cut corners in a few places; I haven't looked at them closely enough to say exactly where. Generally, as has been noted, the X60s will be more durable and a little more comfortable.

Hope that helps!

[jcp2 2]

Is it the soft feel of the uppers that is the big difference between the "butterfly" and "hybrid" pads? I thought I liked my PS2 pads, but then a friend lent me a pair of really old Brian's Beast pads, and I like those better, as they felt more natural. I was still able to butterfly, but my recovery from odd positions was much faster. They have a couple of broken calf straps, the knee cradle strap is missing, there is a hole on the inside of the boot where I can see black rubber inner tube type stuffing, but still, they felt better. Any newer equivalents?

[Law Goalie 147]

The short answer to your first question: yes, for the most part, these days.

The long answer:

There is no meaningful definition of 'butterfly' and 'hybrid' pads; those are basically marketing terms, and particularly vacuous ones, I'm afraid. They are more or less used antithetically, but neither one means much of anything. That said, there is a way to look at the etymological history and make some sense of it all.

First there were simply 'pads.' Then certain pads (Lefebvre's Kohos, mainly) started to get a reputation as 'butterfly pads,' because they were used by Roy and other goalies who played a game that used the butterfly extensively, both as a shot-specific save movement like any other, and as a blocking position. Then Vaughn came out with the Velocity, and started marketing it as a 'pro-fly' pad, which they intended to refer to its ability to consistently form a 90-degree wall up from the ice.

Then there was a bit of a backlash. A lot of companies wanted to differentiate themselves from a 'pro-fly' pad, while still implying that they could do all of those nice modern butterfly things too. The catch-all term for these pads, that were built for both butterfly play (Jenpro medial surfaces, hard knee-wings, knee-blocks, -lifts, and -cradles.) and for other stuff, usually implied by references to more old-school techniques, goalies, or construction methods; that is, hybridising the old and the new. At first, this meant a foam-stuffed pad (like your Beasts) with butterfly features; gradually, it has come to mean any pad that isn't a completely rigid plank. For example, some people claim that the 'Turco-break' Reebok pads are 'hybrid' because they have breaks above and below the knee, and other Reebok pads are 'not hybrid' and therefore 'butterfly.'

As to your Beasts, the reason they feel more natural is simply because they are. They're one of the last retail pads that was even vaguely anatomical, in the sense that it could bend with your leg, rather than float around in front of it. This is because they're made of a shell packed with shredded foam (as you observed) and some little sheets of foam in crucial places, rather than assembled from planks of foam which are laminated/welded together and then skinned. This flexibility both vertical (at the ankle, knee and thigh) and lateral (the torque or twist through the shin, mainly, but also elsewhere), combined with a relatively deep, soft leg-channel, means that the pads stay close to your leg through even unorthodox movements. The fact that they have a sharply tapered and rounded boot plays a large part in that feel as well.

Unfortunately, I can't think of a single pad on the market today that is made the way your Beasts were. There are a great many pads that claim to be 'hybrid pads' that are in fact plank-foam pads with superficial old-school features like cosmetic (non-functional) knee-rolls, vertical stitching on the shin and thigh to simulate shin-rolls (see Carey Price's Vaughns), open toes and toe-caps, etc. That seems to be the operating definition these days. Even a single remotely old-school feature like a soft thigh-rise can qualify a pad for that marketing angle.

The last pads that were true hybrids - the best of both worlds, the old construction methods and the new materials and butterfly features - were probably the Bauer Supremes. Unfortunately, Bauer no longer makes their pads out of that workshop, so they're unobtainable except as used pads. (Full disclosure: I have a pro-return set in the MSH classifieds.) Brian's will, I believe, still make the Beast as a custom order, but it will be a very expensive proposition and they may say no. You could also look into a few of the custom builders like Scott Battram or Glenn Miller, who will do old-school stuff like that. (Pete Smith, for one, won't do that, simply because he believes so much in his new designs.) You might also be able to find a pair of the pre-V4 Vaughn Velocities, which were made with shred-pack foam, although with HD plates in the boot and shin, and sometimes the knee and thigh; newer Vaughn pads (the V4 and 7440, I believe) are made with plank foam. The Velocity also has a tapered but not a rounded boot (it tapers on an angle, not a curve), which won't feel exactly like your Beasts, but it'll be closer than, say, one of the new faux-Kohos.

[jcp2 2]

Goaliemonkey has the Bauer Supreme Pro SE and Koho 700's. Simmons has the 585. Are they reasonably close to the Beast? Are the shin rolls cosmetic only?

[Law Goalie 147]

The Supreme Pro SE might work. It's a bit stiffer than my set, but still predominantly packed with shredded foam and smaller chunks, rather than big solid planks. The major difference is that the SE-series pads had almost totally square (ie. rectangular) boots (8"x11"), while the non-SE Supreme Pros had a sharply tapered, slightly rounded boot; my Aubin Supremes have a classic rounded boot that's a bit shorter (7.5").

The Koho 700s and Simmons 585s are 100% cosmetic hybrid pads. They're not as laterally stiff as a Reebok, but closer to that than to the Beast.

It is possible to make a plank-foam pad that has significant lateral flex, but it's tricky; it's also possible to make a completely rigid pad that's predominantly packed with shredded foam, depending on what kind of foam and structure you use in the gussets.

[srv2miker 0]

I loved the feel of my Beasts, but after playing with them for 8 months, I started to notice they really were lacking in some bfly movements. I had occasional under-rotation, which was irritating, and they definitely weren't ideal for sliding. The feel was nice, but they just weren't built for modern goaltending techniques.

[Law Goalie 147]

That's the tough part. Even if you built a completely shred-packed pad, the requirement of attaching a stiff modern knee-wing and calf-wing at right-angles to the length of the pad stiffens it enormously; if you then add high-density foam to the medial gusset in order to improve sliding, you stiffen it even more. What you end up with is a soft pad surrounded with a rigid shell, like putting feathers inside a cardboard box and calling it a pillow - try sleeping on that! That's not to say it can't be done, only that in order to have Beast-like traditional flexibility and modern butterfly performance, you need to be very, very careful about how the pad was built, assuming you could find someone to build it.

One of the other things about modern pads is that they're far less labour intensive; they require less craft and less time, and that has become factored into the economics. The whole reason why a company like Reebok can produce respectable offshore facsimiles of their premium gear is because of the way it's built. Back when the way a shin-roll was hand-stuffed could make the difference between a pad-save and a broken tibia, pad-making was an art in the Da Vinci sense; now it's largely an art in the Warhol sense.

Don't get me wrong; I'm not ragging on modern gear or shouting at the wind. It's just an economic reality that companies prefer solid foam core pads to stuffed pads, whether deer hair or shredded foam. Even the builders who are capable of that level of craft would prefer not to do it any more.

[vision 0]

I'm not sure that all the craftsman that are capable feel that way. You might want to look at the "new" pad that Glenn Miller is building. While I haven't held it in my hands, from talking to Glenn, it would appear that it blends the best of both worlds. I think that there are pictures if not a description of this pad on his site.

::m

[Law Goalie 147]

You're quite right - I ought to have said "most builders," with Miller and Battram (who I nominated previously) being the two major current exceptions. If anyone could figure out how to get the best of both, it'd be one of them, and Glenn's interests certainly seem to have been heading in that direction.

[docar15 1]

Wow! When Mr. LawGoalie posts a reply - he posts a reply :-)!

Sorry it took me a bit to respond. Internet free work related travel.

I got the X55s from GoalieMonkey on special. They were originally an $800+ pad. My other set is Brown Excel 2100.

If yo to his website, he still has the 2100 and 1700 models. In my humble opinion these things are the last true cushion pads that you strap on tight and can kick out any way you like. They move with you first time out of the box.

Back to X55. Second break is a life saver for me. Being over 40 with knees that are almost twice that age, my butterfly (I try that save at least once a month) is ultra narrow. X55 soft flex closes the five hole nicely. Two break design of the soft flex X55 is similar ot Vaughn V3 7400 (one I looked at) or V4 7450 (I found it stiffer then 7400). Medium flex of X55 has one break, and hard has no breaks.

X55 were soft enough to keep the straps somewhat tight, yet they still rotate to give me more blocking surface when I do butterfly.

Good luck.

I loved the feel of my Beasts, but after playing with them for 8 months, I started to notice they really were lacking in some bfly movements. I had occasional under-rotation, which was irritating, and they definitely weren't ideal for sliding. The feel was nice, but they just weren't built for modern goaltending techniques.