Lidstrom's rank amongst all-time defensemen

[chippa13 1844]

Did you happen to see the Bruins teams he played on in 96-97 thru 99-00? They struggled to score even strength goals. As for Bourque's shooting percentage, I guess you didn't watch him play very much. He often put shots on net from the center ice and as far back as the tops of his own circles. It was a strategy he employed for line changes, dump ins and clearing plays when there were no other options. Most of those, if I remember correctly, didn't go in.

[Stewie 721]

lidstrom never shot from center ice, either.

I was compairing based on his own shooting percentages, so unless you think that was a late career development. maybe they struggled to score partially because Bourque became less of an offensive threat? two of those seasons they still finished +30 in GF/GA. your right to say i didnt see as many bruins games as you did, but when i compared bourque late career to his prior abilities, and lidstrom with his, i feel lidstrom had less of a fall off. im not saying bourque was horrible in his last few seasons by any stretch, quite the opposite actually. Lidstrom was still able to win a Norris the previous season, granted he didnt have to compete with a Nicklas Lidstrom like Bourque did his last years, but Zdeno Chara is pretty damn good too.

[chippa13 1844]

They struggled to score because those teams were one line teams for those 4 years. They had the Allison line that would put up all of the points and everyone else just tried not to get scored on. Did Bourque's numbers fall off as the 90's progressed? Yes, they fell to the level of all the other defensemen out there. In his last 4 seasons Bourque finished 12th, 3rd, 7th, and 4th in defensemen scoring.

[goblue9280 33]

Hold on a second. Bourque was a star in Boston but hardly a "rock star". Bourque had every bit the quiet personality that you attribute to Lidstrom.

Ok, yes, he wasn't exactly a rock star... my point was from very early on in his career he was THE star of the bruins... and the 2nd coming of Orr. I recognize he had a quiet personality like Lidstrom, but my point was he was never overlooked like Lidstrom was for so much of his career. I believe that difference has an effect on how hockey fans view their legacies (although it shouldn't)... to what degree, I don't know, but it's certainly part of the equation.

he would play a guy into the part of the ice where he would finish him off in the boards or the corner and leave with the puck to lead the breakout while the opponent got up wondering what just happened.

Fair enough... all the great defenesmen in this discussion had that attribute. I simply contend that none of them were better than Lidstrom, evidenced by the fact he rarely ever missed a game to injury.

[Stewie 721]

scoring is only one aspect of his game though, and i already admitted that he was the better offensive defender, but lidstrom had some of his better shooting years at the end of his career, and was still a stellar, norris finalist defender. They both shot roughly the same percentage for their careers (bourque 6.6, lidstrom 6.8) but to me it seemed that Bourques numbers started declining as league scoring declined, whereas Lidstroms stayed fairly constant. I am guessing Lidstrom would have had a lot more assists this season if he had Sakic, Forsberg, Tanguay, Hejduk, and drury putting them home most the time hes on the ice, as well.

[chippa13 1844]

"In 2000–01—what turned out to be his only full season in Colorado—he was named an alternate captain. He led all Colorado defencemen in scoring, and formed a solid defensive pairing with Adam Foote and Rob Blake, the latter of whom the Avs received from the Los Angeles Kings in a trade. Bourque was named to the postseason First All-Star team, finishing as runner-up to the Detroit Red Wings' Nicklas Lidstrom for the Norris Trophy."

Yeah, must have sucked to play with Datsyuk and Zetterberg. Colorado scored 233 goals in the 99-00 season, they scored 270 in the 00-01 season. Perhaps Bourque helped them to that 37 goal jump, perhaps.

[Jason Harris 31]

how am i making a fallacy based on the fact that i watched both play, and thought that lidstrom was a better pure defender? For goodness sakes he made Ian freakin White look like a top line defender this year, his 20th in the NHL. In terms of playing angles, keeping guys to the outside, etc, I FEEL lidstrom was better, it has nothing to do with his statistics, plus minus, etc, its just my eye test. Yes Bourque was the more physical of the two, but Lidstrom didnt have to be, he was always in position to make the play, and physical play hurts both parties. I think that towards the twilight of their careers, Lidstrom was still a top 5 defenseman and could have been for a few more years, whereas bourque tailed off a little near the end. By no means am i some defensive expert, Its just my opinion based on growing up a hockey fan. I did benefit from watching Lidstrom more, but I also caught a lot of Bruins games as well

All in all, they are both great defenders, and good on offence as well. I would just personally rate them a little differently in their talents, not based on any trophy count etc, in fact i feel lidstrom could have won MORE norris trophies had guys realized just how good he was before, his play is just so understated, bourque, guys like him are more flashy and played more during a time when scoring was more frequent, so his offensive numbers could stand out more.

Fair enough.

Bear in mind, however, that during Bourque's last four years in Boston those teams were mediocre, and his Stanley Cup dreams were slipping away. The media characterized him as divided at the end, because he knew he would never win in the near future in Boston, but he felt loyal to the city and organization. He was obviously rejuvenated playing with Hall Of Famers in Colorado

[Stewie 721]

"In 2000–01—what turned out to be his only full season in Colorado—he was named an alternate captain. He led all Colorado defencemen in scoring, and formed a solid defensive pairing with Adam Foote and Rob Blake, the latter of whom the Avs received from the Los Angeles Kings in a trade. Bourque was named to the postseason First All-Star team, finishing as runner-up to the Detroit Red Wings' Nicklas Lidstrom for the Norris Trophy."

Yeah, must have sucked to play with Datsyuk and Zetterberg. Colorado scored 233 goals in the 99-00 season, they scored 270 in the 00-01 season. Perhaps Bourque helped them to that 37 goal jump, perhaps.

this last season datsyuk and zetterburg combined for 43 goals. roughly what hejduk had 2000-2001, and far less than sakic. They are both GREAT players that i love to call red wings, but their true strength is in their 2 way play, not in burying the puck. The Red Wings are a balanced offensive team, so the assists get spread out when different defenders are on the ice.

Possibly one reason that Colorado scored more goals in 2000-2001 season is because Sakic played 22 more games, and Forsberg played 24 more games, than they did in the 1999-2000 season. 46 more games for your top scorers tend to help in that regard.Sandis Ozolinsh had 52 points as the top D in 1999-2000 colorado, Bourque had 5 more in 2000-2001, so i think 46 more opportunities to have lines with Sakic and Forsberg could help that, just a little.

And needless to say, id rather be paired with Adam Foote and Rob Blake for my last season, than Ian White (although i do like White).

And again, this is all based on offensive play, theres another side of the coin, defensive play, both stellar, i prefer lidstroms.

[Chadd 916]

I recognize he had a quiet personality like Lidstrom, but my point was he was never overlooked like Lidstrom was for so much of his career.

This is getting absurd, Lidstrom was not overlooked for most of his career by anyone who actually watched hockey games.

[goblue9280 33]

This is getting absurd, Lidstrom was not overlooked for most of his career by anyone who actually watched hockey games.

Sorry, I was typing quickly at work... by "so much of his career" I was actually referring to the first third of his career when he was playing with Coffey and Konstantinov. Bourque didn't go through a similar period in Boston... he was "the star" of the team from very early in his career. My post before that I laid out what I was trying to say more clearly.

[Stewie 721]

As a side note, fans of Detroit and Boston should both feel VERY lucky to even be able to have this debate. It's obvious both sides are going to defend their guy, but honestly i can't blame bourque fans one bit. We both got to see amazing d men for about 20 years, and 28 other teams are jealous of us in that regard

[chippa13 1844]

I just feel bad for Detroit fans. At least we have Chara now. Although we did have to suffer through some supposed heirs to Bourque along the way.

[goblue9280 33]

I just feel bad for Detroit fans. At least we have Chara now. Although we did have to suffer through some supposed heirs to Bourque along the way.

Don't feel bad, we'll have Suter soon enough!

[dsjunior1388 81]

Now I'm curious, can anyone give a testimonial on Harvey? I know he has 7 Norris trophys and is regarded as the best defenseman in Canadiens history, but now I realize I don't know much at all about his game.