The SMS or 'Reverse-VH' (RVH) Technique, from an Equipment Perspective

[bunnyman666 445]

Coolniss! I feel like if I could end up adding things like that to my save selection, as all I have are poor slides and a wicked okay stick hand. Okay, I doubt I have the athleticism to pull those moves off, I just want to see more Hasek Rolls.

Maybe I will perfect the Hasek Roll for my favourite sushi bar ;)

[Hills 712]

Absolutely fantastic response to my post Law Goalie. I came here expecting to completely disagree without and instead you made me understand the topic more and made me think of a bunch of things.

I actually use both the VH and sms techniques quite often, and I am glad you brought up the Lundqvist gif because it brought up a point I failed to make earlier in where he uses the dead-arm technique which gives up some of the top coverage when he leans into the middle for the push off.

I try not to use the VH on the blocker side as I do not like how I have to position my blocker in order to cover the 5 hole with my stick (as sometimes my leg on the ground would move away from the 5 hole) and thus I felt my high coverage wasn't good enough. I felt I was too compromised in this position and moved to using more of a straight butterfly save (which can lead to over playing the puck and leaving me slightly out of the net, but it is something I have been working on and thus implementing sms in those situations).

But on my catching glove side I believe I found an almost perfect save selection where I have consistently shut very high level of players. But I attribute this to my size as well as technique. I hate the dead-arm play here because I felt too exposed up high if a player decides to skate out into the slot, I found that I had too many good shooters coming out in the slot and instantly going high right next to my ear. But if I keep my glove right above my pad I can get the glove covering the exact top corner and my shoulders being backup. With this movement my glove is already positioned in a great place for a high shot if I have to come off the post when the player skates into the middle. Which has helped me a lot in this scenario.

Because of my confidence in the VH glove side I find very little use of the sms in that position on anything but wrap arounds, I see what you are saying about goalies having to load their legs and hips to push off and while I agree this needs to be done I still feel I get better pushes and quicker pushes than I can get with my leg in the sms position. Perhaps I am doing something wrong here.

I have a few shinny sessions coming up and I will try and get some pictures of what I am doing from puck level, worst case I'll get gopro footage of it.

Thank you again for the excellent posts.

[Law Goalie 147]

Cheers, Hills; I think we've got a really good discussion going here.

I don't think it's necessarily that you're doing something 'wrong' in the SMS so much as that you're very good in the VH; by comparison, the SMS seems weaker because you've adapted yourself to VH so effectively. In particular, I would imagine that you've probably got that complex movement off the post from the VH -- starting from a vertical pad and edges with a neutral hip, then internally rotating the hip as the play moves out and pushing seamlessly across -- down to an art at this point. I love watching Lundqvist in the VH, in part, because of the way he rotates his hip to follow the puck as players try to carry it across him; his movement is so coordinated that it's like the pad is magnetised to the puck.

I completely agree about getting maximal glove-side aerial coverage in the VH. If a goalie stacks the cuff of his glove on top of a 36"+ pad, there is no shot on the short side: period, from any distance. I agree that good shooters are now deliberately targeting this high, short-side shot on what I'd loosely call 'tight walkouts'; they're not really walkouts, because they're tight enough to the net that they could be a simple wrap/jam, but the shooter's intention is to get enough depth from the goal to rip the puck high short-side as soon as he can find the angle.

The thing that interests me about the SMS is that if someone threw a low-angle shot at you from maximum distance (from the corner just above the goal-line), you'd be able to reach up and catch it with an active glove, rather than sitting back somewhat passively in the SMS and 'waiting' for it to enter your glove. I'm oversimplifying here, but I do feel that the SMS allows for a more active glove-hand than the VH; this is part of the reason why, as you cogently indicated, the SMS has a much higher learning curve. If you use the SMS as a 'lazy block' on moderately distant low-angle shots, you're going to get ripped apart; if you use it as an platform from which to make active catches, it's much better. As the puck comes into blocking range, the aerial angle starts to disappear, and the SMS shifts seamlessly into blocking mode.

When you flip this to the blocker side, I think we're in agreement that the SMS addresses a lot of the concerns about the blocker-side VH; it doesn't cost you much (if any) aerial blocking coverage, and (again) it really frees up the blocker. What really sold me on the SMS, in fact, was having a friend throw some low-angle shots on the blocker-side, and realizing how much freer and more active my blocker could be in the SMS, as compared with the VH, where it had always seemed kind of far-back and restricted.

Your point about using a 'straight butterfly save' on blocker-side low-angle situations is exactly what I've been trying to develop. The common interpretation of a transition to the SMS involves planting the strong (short) side foot against the base of the post and pivoting your whole weight against it; this requires Marsh Pegs, or something comparable, even for strong youth goalies. Instead, I've been advocating for what is, more or less, low-power, controlled butterfly-slide into the base of the post; little more than snapping the strong (short) side knee down in response to a shot (or wrap) and letting the shift in weight carry the toe of the skate (and pad) into the post. (Of course, you can slide in from further out, but I'm talking about handling a purely low-angle play here.)

Historically, Quick (like you) began to integrate the SMS asymmetrically. Prior to his Conn Smythe run, he used the SMS on the blocker side almost exclusively, and an incredible version of a paddle-down 'wrap' on the glove-side post. In that position, he kept his glove-side pad close to 60 degrees (inside edge fully engaged, ready to push) but instead of a dead-arm to fill the gap, somehow managed to reach around his pad and 'smother' the aerial angle with his glove. It was an incredible contortion. The reason he switched to a symmetrical SMS, I surmise, is that he realized this paddle-down wrap, as impressive as it was, gave him far worse coverage in every respect, and no more mobility than the SMS. By the time the playoffs came around, he was almost exclusively using the SMS, except for a few stray examples of that glove-side paddle-down 'wrap' manoeuvre.

The one thing I'd suggest, as you're working on your movement out of the SMS, is to really focus on your backside skate, i.e. the one not on the post. I've been working with a few goalies (admittedly a lot younger than you!) who were heavily trained (I would say overtrained, by someone else) in the VH, and they've all shared a couple of common symptoms as they started to develop their SMS techniques; I've also noticed these in pro goalies (like Bishop) who were using the VH heavily before switching to SMS-- which, as you've noted, can be tricky. What they all seem to share is a heavy focus (both mental and physical, as in balance) on the frontside (short-side) leg in contact with the post, while the backside leg is largely neglected; it's often left kind of swinging or dangling, rather than engaged on the inside edge of the skate and generating leverage, as Price and Quick use it.

I think the reason is that goalies who are used to the VH instinctively want to feel that weak-side (backside) leg as close to the ice as possible; to them, the VH feels exposed because the weak-side knee is up in the air. The trouble is that as you try to lower the weak-side knee, your skate-blade disengages, and the leg is left swinging around on the medial (inside) surface of the cowling. Secondarily, but perhaps more importantly, trying to keep the weak-side knee low to the ice starts to shift the goalie's weight away from the strong (short) side post; this is why, I surmise, goalies who are used to the VH tend to feel like the SMS is weak coming off the post. In part, it's because they're used to pushing from the VH (whatever its drawbacks), but the more interesting thing is that the way they're handling the weak-side leg and skate is actually undermining their ability to explode off the post.

When you look at Price and Quick before they push off the post in the SMS, they look coiled: their bodies are full of potential energy in the core, hips, etc. When you look at, say, Bishop, he looks like he's just 'there', and when he tries to move off the post, he kind of wiggles (for lack of a better word-- it's not even really a knee-shuffle) to the opposite post. Now, being 6'9" in socks, he doesn't have far to go, but he just doesn't (at present) display the kind of power that Price and Quick do. Some of that is that he's not as developed an athlete as they are; some of it, as I speculated in the first post, has to do with the fact that his enormous pontoon-feet are pushing him into old-school Tuuk cowlings, so that he gets none of the benefits increased AOA through taller (eg. Step) steel and low-profile (eg. Vertexx) cowlings.

In particular, the thing Price does even better than Quick is to use his backside skate to accelerate his movement across the net, to the far post. As a player approaches the strong (short) side post, Price, already in the SMS, will press down on the heel of his backside skate and pivot around the post to square slightly towards the puck; this discourages a short-side jam, and appears (by taking the weak-side (backside) foot and pad away from the weak-side post) to open him up to a fast wrap. He'll then press down sharply on the toe of his backside skate -- in effect, a kind of C-cut -- which powerfully rotates him body and backside skate (now becoming the front-side skate, as the play transitions) towards the weak-side post.

The way Price uses the SMS reminds me quite a bit of some of the high-AOA skating demonstrations Jocke Strandberg put out some years back:

Especially:

But also, for interest:

+

(What's interesting about these last two is that there's barely any core rotation; Jocke is basically moving straight forwards and backwards in the butterfly with tiny C-cuts)

Now, to be clear, I still don't think the 'Duckwalk' is a useful technique in most situations; it opens up too much on the front-side. (It is, however, extremely useful for rapidly changing your squareness in low-angle situations where you're also in danger of over-sliding.) What's really interesting is that the Duckwalk, as performed by Jocke, is basically the SMS in reverse, using the frontside skate instead of the backside skate to control squareness in the butterfly.

[Hills 712]

I'm going to have to read into this more but don't have time yet as I have to go out to hockey very shortly. But I did get some photos from my first session today where I got my buddy to come out with a GoPro and do some ice shots.

One thing I REALLY realized when doing them is how I really can't get any instant push in the SMS off the post. I have to raise my leg and do a normal butterfly slide to move into a better angle. And since I have to lean so heavily on top the heel of my skate to get the upper body protecting the post this requires more movements than what is required in my VH. Perhaps with enough practice this could be done effortlessly and maybe i am doing something wrong. But the way I see it at the moment it is a significant increase in the amount of actions I must make to slide back door or to get back into the middle of the net in the SMS vs the VH.

Here are the pictures from this morning. I also totally agree that my catching glove is very locked into place in the VH when it is above the pad, but I feel it is locked very low in SMS as well.

[Law Goalie 147]

Hills, those are awesome shots: nicely staged, some very close to true puck-perspective. (And I'm not a small guy, but damn do I envy your size; we're also both Warrior fans, apparently!)

One minor point: I notice that in the SMS shots, you've got your skate-blade against the base of the post. I would suggest experimenting with the blade inside the net, putting the toe of the cowling against the inside of the post and the toe of the pad on the outside (front) of the post. This is something I mentioned briefly in the original post, and minnsy threw up that neat GIF of Lundqvist doing it; I think it hugely improves lateral and diagonal pushes off the post in the SMS, but it also puts a nice finishing touch on the coverage. If you look at the gap created by the skate-blade resting on the post, it corresponds closely to the gap alongside (not above) the top of your shoulder. If you tuck your skate-blade into the net to rest the toe of the cowling on the inside of the post, both of these gaps -- between the pad and the post, and your shoulder and the post -- will shrink to nil.

I agree that your glove a bit 'cramped' or locked in the SMS, which is a very common issue with that particular glove location in the SMS. Not only is it locking your arm, it's also creating gaps around your hip and above and below your elbow; you're bending your arm to fit it between your shoulder and the pad, and as you bent it the elbow is pushing your shoulder and your glove off the post. You could experiment with the 'glove-on-the-ice' variation of the SMS (like the Stauber example in the first post) which gives better coverage along the post at the cost of a little vertical coverage, though I'd suggest reserving this for players tighter to the net.

My suggestion would be to try flipping your glove around, so that the cuff rather than the T-trap is closer to the pad (more like 'pocket-up' rather than 'fingers up), opening the palm and pocket to the puck (or camera lens), and extending the glove slightly towards the puck to fill up more of the available angle. In SMS Glove-Side Pic #1 (above),m this would leave you with a 'unlocked' active glove hand; in #2, you'd be able to fill in the whole gap at your hip, even if you held your shoulder a little higher (keeping the prior adjustments in mind as well); in #3, holding your glove out a little could completely wipe out the entire aerial angle, effectively smothering any upward shot. (And remember, with your skate-blade inside the post, there won't even be a high short-side shot in #3.)

On the blocker-side, I'd similarly suggest getting the blocker off your pad, squaring the board to the puck (lens) and pushing it out into the shooting angle as much as possible; that'll not only fill up more of the gap at your hip, it'll give you a nice, free hand to deal with higher shots. You could also push your shoulder a little higher by really digging in the backside skate, and, again, going to-to-post (blade inside) rather than blade-to-post will fill in that upper gap at the shoulder.

On both sides, I'd strongly suggest bringing your weak-side glove (ie. your blocker on the glove side, glove on the blocker-side) off your weak-side pad and out in front of your body. Having that glove (relatively speaking) up and in front of you would help to eliminate that high-far-side, top-corner shot that's open in the more distant SMS photos, but more importantly, would simply get your hands more involved on shots generally, including this into the body.

One thing's for sure: you're not giving the shooter much in any of those postures.

The one spot I can see a little 'daylight' in your VH is in a spot that the SMS completely seals up from the same perspective. It's mostly visible in the first and fourth VH shots, but you can still see hints of it in the later shots: right between your thighs. I know it's possible to squeeze a shot there, but I've also seen really good goalies 'lay an egg' from time to time, where the puck gets chipped into that gap, they squeeze, and it dribbles out the back. It's also (in my experience) a second shot that smart shooters are starting to look for; if they can't pick a goalie high-short-side, they'll look to throw it in there, especially as the goalie starts to push off with the vertical leg and/or reach with the horizontal leg.

Something that's clear from your SMS shots is that your strong (short) side pad is completely covering the bottom 11" of the shooting angle; your weak-side pad can be used entirely for generating peerage, controlling squareness, and (through squareness) getting ready to face a weak-side threat, whether it's a pass, a wrap, or a walk-out.

That's actually another great thing about the SMS that I didn't really discuss; I may have to add it to the original post. In case of a low walk-out, a goalie in the VH has to push off the post as the shooter threatens to pass the goalie's midline (nose to navel). Because the midline is both vertical and near the post, the goalie has to push off fairly early. In the SMS, however, the goalie doesn't have to push off until the player has gone all the way around the strong (short) side pad, which is extending about three feet into the crease, and even then the goalie doesn't need to push yet; the goalie merely straightens up as the player comes across, moving into a simple butterfly as the weak-side leg returns to the ice. (This is possible, anatomically, because of the angled midline in the SMS; the nose is near the post, but the navel remains between the pads.) This is why the SMS is so strong against walk-outs: it forces the player to go further out (and thus closer to the D), and the goalie needs smaller, easier adjustments to track the first part of the movement.

The one thing that is starting to look a bit dated about Dr. Smith's Ritual/SP6000 pad design is the lateral (outer) calf wedge. I still love it for a variety of reasons -- chiefly that it's a perfect place to hang straps on the lateral side of the pad -- but I've literally never been hit by a puck there. Apart from a bit of red smudging from the posts, the calf-wedges are completely untouched.

[Hills 712]

I agree that the outer wedge seems really useless to me.

I also agree with the small gap in between the thighs and it can be tricky. I used to have more issues with this but I've been able to close it down for the past season. I tend to react to shots and not just stay in a static VH.

I might also have ice tonight as a goalie so I'll try the cowling on post and the different hand positions if I can. But I will not have the ability to get photos this time, it will be more or less to just see how it feels.

One thing that still bugs me about the SMS is how much I have to lean back though, it does put stress on my ankles and I even tried to go with no toe ties, and every time I got up from the butterfly my leg would be facing forward and my pads were about on a 45 degree angle facing outwards towards the boards with the entire top of my skate exposed forward. I've tried loosen the toe ties as well but any looser meant when I recovered the pad wasn't straight on my leg.

[Law Goalie 147]

I suspect you'll find that doing cowling-to-post (which I rather like as a term) will alleviate a surprising amount of the strain you're feeling in the SMS. It doesn't seem like much in terms of distance, but it makes a significant difference in my experience.

I notice strain on the ankles (specifically the strong-side ankle, close to the post) primarily when transitioning to the SMS from an upright stance; when I slide into the base of the post in the BF and lean back, less so. In fact, I've actually started staying off the post in low-angle perimeter situations, just so I can easily slide back in as needed. It's worked well so far, but I'm not sure about it as a consistent tactic.

I haven't noticed that issue with the pad not 're-centring' (for lack of a better term) on the knee when recovering from the SMS-- at least not with the Rituals. Then again, I'm only using two straps -- a two-into-one knee/upper calf strap and a boot-strap -- and no toe connection at all. I also removed the outer half of the knee-lock.

I might suggest having a look at strap tightness through the calf and knee, but I suspect what you're describing is just a result of your not being quite so used to the movements involved in the SMS. What actually 're-centres' the pad on the leg isn't the toe-ties but the movement of the knee, governed by the rapid external rotation of the hip. Since (I assume) your pads are behaving perfectly in the VH and BF, I'd guess that you just need to adapt your athleticism a little more to the SMS, get a little more explosive and a little less tentative in your movements, and so on.

I thought I'd also throw up a couple of interesting demonstration videos. They're from a guy called Dusan Sidor: a 1987 goalie who's played primarily in Italy. He's got great athleticism -- check out the cartwheel celebration in the third video! -- and moves really well, in general, though I am really annoyed with his tendency to 'pop' like a dancer in his movement demos, flashing his hands and feet around as nothing but a distraction.

Fair warning: these are highly stylized, very choreographed, programmatic movements. I'd never ask a goalie to move like this, but as a pure demonstration, the repeated, robotic movements do allow us to get a more consistent look at the techniques.

In this first video, what most interests me is how he pivots using his weak-side skate, and how smooth his movement is some of the time:

In this second video he's much more explosive in his movements (and less sound), but it's still interesting to see how he generates power from the SMS:

And finally, the cartwheel celebration (skip to ~1:45):

[Hills 712]

What skates do you use and what part of the cowling is supposed to be on the post? I tried it last night and the only part of my skate I could get on the post was my blade.

I don't have problems with the pads re-centering at all when I play. It was only when I tried to butterfly with no toe ties the boot of the pad would just slide all around my skate and end up facing completely the wrong direction.

I also don't have any issues on my ankles when moving to and from the SMS, it is only when I have to lean back to cover the post I am having the issues.

Watching those videos you just showed, it looks like he isn't pushing off the post for most of them, and only doing it when his pad is inside of it and using it as leverage. It seems to me the majority of the pushes are done through butterfly shuffles. Something that I have nowhere near the core strength to execute nearly as fast as him and I know I wouldn't be able to cover the backside passes quick enough.

[Law Goalie 147]

Really, really interesting observations, Hills.

I'm using a couple of skates, presently: Flexlites in CCM Customlite cowlings, S15 boots in Bauer 3mm Vertexx cowlings (that was a pain in the ass to arrange, thanks to the stupid bump in the outsole of the S15s), and I'm working on a set of Flexlites in Graf 7500s.

The way that seems to work for most is to have the toe of the cowling against the inside of the post and the toe of the pad against the front of the post; the pad will sort of end up squeezed between the cowling and the toe of the pad. DS in there above videos isn't super accurate; sometimes his skate-blade's on the post, sometimes his cowling.

Ah, got it: I thought you were saying that recoveries from the SMS was the issue with pads not re-centring, but it's really a no toe-ties thing. I actually did have a few issues with my pads not re-centring out of the SMS at first, so I just assumed.

Interesting about the ankles. I've just noticed generally that at the end of a couple hours on the ice, regularly using the SMS against open play, my ankles and lower calves got more of a workout than when I was using the VH in similar situations. (And to be clear, I'm by no means a paragon of fitness and flexibility at the moment.) I'll test it out the next time I'm on the ice, to see whether I can replicate the ankle stress you're describing: something to investigate further, certainly.

To your last point, re: the videos, you nailed it -- it is a butterfly shuffle, at heart -- but there's an extra component. In a BF shuffle on open ice, your groin is doing all the work: extend the lead knee, push with the back knee, pull together, repeat. (There's an awesome ice-level video of Brian Elliott knee-shuffling somewhere on the internet; he's doing it so fast it looks like his thigh-rises are cards being shuffled in a deck.) What Sidor does a decent job of demonstrating is that the slide out of the SMS is, as you observe, a huge BF shuffle boosted by a push off the post, and secondarily by his core movement from the compressed position in the SMS to an upright BF. (If you just lean back and then snap your torso upright forcefully, you'll generate a little bit of momentum; not much, but it all adds up.) Quick's recovery from the SMS into a 'T-push' (sort of) is illustrative: it's basically a lunge from the knees up to the lead foot, with a little extra 'boost' from the push off the post. Both of them could probably do similar moves on empty ice (which is what would rip you and I in half) but the extra leverage makes a big difference.

[Zip 1]

A really interesting discussion that I will be following closely.

I think the only advantage I can find for VH in my experience is that if I'm in a standing position on the post with a forward coming down the bottom of the circle it is quicker (or at least easier, personally) to react/drop into the VH than it is it to drop into SMS. This may be a reflection of my lack of athletecisim however, but I find that to drop into SMS in that situation I have to disengage from the post (hello short side snipe) in order to drop and push my body into the post in the correct position.

In terms of optimal skate position, I have found that getting the "inside" ?? of your toe bridge on the post gives you the most power to push off from.

Looking at your video and description Hills you may not yet have the mobility to attain the Skate or Toe on post position comfortably. As a technical pointer I'd also look to get your glove and arm outside the post (you do this to the stick side just fine). With regards to the mobility point - it would be worth exploring getting in to the position with your boot inside the post - it is certainly more comfortable for the sealing the post with your upper body, transitionitioning from the post is still quick but instead of kicking off the post, it is more of "pull - push" transitioning your weight to your inside leg to initiate the movement and seperate your outside leg from the post and then butterfly pushing over.

[minnsy 15]

I had to revisit this thread. Last night I played a short scrimmage, and there was a bad angle short range play. Out of habit, I dropped into my VH. I made the save, but the puck squirted to the weak side. My defenseman saved me at that point, but I left that play with a bad feeling in my mouth: 9 times out of 10 that's in the back of the net. On top of that, I was off balance while making the save, leaning too far away from the puck.

I've been using Step Steel Extreme blades for a while, which has made down movements better, but I will say, makes the VH much more difficult to use while remaining balanced. I think the Step Steel Extreme blades might work better with SMS than VH.

[minnsy 15]

So I've been experimenting more and more, and I'm still struggling with the toes on post precision. It just doesn't seem like there's enough space on the cowling in from of the blade to catch the post.

My theory is that the extended blade of my step steel extremes is what makes the toe on post position unusable. I might have to use blades on post...

Any suggestions on how to get around the longer blade of the step steel?

[Hills 712]

So I've been experimenting more and more, and I'm still struggling with the toes on post precision. It just doesn't seem like there's enough space on the cowling in from of the blade to catch the post.

My theory is that the extended blade of my step steel extremes is what makes the toe on post position unusable. I might have to use blades on post...

Any suggestions on how to get around the longer blade of the step steel?

I couldn't get my toe on the posts with normal steel, so I don't think it is just a Step Steel thing.

[IPv6Freely 2092]

Yeah I have a really difficult time doing it too. I end up either going blade to post or having the boot of the pad on the inside of the post.

[minnsy 15]

I just uploaded a video to youtube of the "RVH Hinge", as illustrated by a pro goalie and a Jr. A goalie.

It's interesting to see his edge work on the post. This guy's edgework though is amazing in any case:

(Source: Rob Madore's Twitter).

[minnsy 15]

A great article in InGoalMag that discusses RVH/SMS in depth:

http://ingoalmag.com/analysis/reverse-vh-the-importance-of-an-engaged-back-foot/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

[minnsy 15]

Another article in InGoalMag, illustrates a goal on an RVH using Reimer. Points out the importance of keeping hands active as opposed to tucked, as well as a shortcoming perhaps of using blade on post.

http://ingoalmag.com/analysis/skate-position-key-in-reverse-vh-goal-against-for-reimer/

[JEC 4]

Very interesting thread with very knowledgeable people.  I was already using the SMS technique on the blocker side 15 years ago in minor hockey league.  Picking it up again this year and trying to use it on the glove (regular) side as well.  I blocked many shots using this technique but got beat a couple of times when a player is going full speed across the goal line and back in front on the same side.  Both times the player put it below my left pad (glove side) as I was following the player moving forward and right.  I guess my left leg goes up a little when moving from the post.  Is it a weakness of the technique or am I doing something wrong?  puck was on the ice so maybe a 2 inch gap.