Skate Profile/Contouring: machine template versus freehand

[endomaniac 2]

Is it better to get a profile/contour  from a store that uses a machine guided template (like Blademaster Custom Radius Contouring Systems) VERSUS an "expert craftsman" that does it freehand?  See several posts below for my description of these two processes. 

[boo10 323]

Before the avalanche of "Are you crazy" answers starts.....always a template. It is impossible to properly apply a radius/pitch to a blade using freehand. 

[endomaniac 2]

That's what I would have thought. Reason I ask is because the most reputable/knowledgeable sharpener in my area that I know of has done it freehand many years and he does many pros as well. 

[GoalForFun 176]

It's not like it can't be done, but 99% of sharpeners can't do it freehand.

[boo10 323]

57 minutes ago, GoalForFun said:

It's not like it can't be done, but 99% of sharpeners can't do it freehand.

100℅ of sharpeners can't do it freehand.  Some can get close enough that a skater won't notice, but the blades will still not be identical in pitch and radius. 

[Kgbeast 195]

I would think If you mark the blade using template, you can do a very close job following the line using something like blackstones crossgringer. If you know your way around the machine, the result should be close to what you get from factory. Even using an ordinary grinder you can get pretty good result if you have a line to follow. If you just eyeball the whole thing freehand, I doubt it would look right.

[endomaniac 2]

I don't mean eyeballing of course. 

The freehand process that I am referring to above involves marking the blades balance point, calculations of what the blade height should be at different sections of the blade for a given radius, cross grinding the blade using these markings, and finally comparing the blade to a standard known template (9,10, 11 radius or what have you) to evaluate the accuracy of the job by seeing where light passes through (ideally light does not pass through at all if blade/template are identical). I would imagine this involves a lot of skill and experience.

the other method I am comparing to is using a guide track (blademaster custom radius contouring system) ..........theoretically this should be "fool proof" in theory..........unless I am missing something ? The third way is completey automated (Ie. CAG one machine) which I have heard is subject to operator error on how the skate is set in the machine.

i am no expert in the contouring process and the above comments  are strictly my observations which may/may not be reality. Please feel to correct me if I have any misconceptions.  

[Kgbeast 195]

I would think the track or the guide method will work pretty good as long as you take into consideration stone wear. Cagone machine looks pretty nice. It is like Sparks that uses Blackstone method to deal with the stone (which I think is pretty nice). It should work wonderfully especially since they already have profiling feature integrated. As far as placing the skate in the machine, you can measure out and make aligning marks on the holder and on the machine and it should be spot on. Even if you eyeball, it should be close enough. Even though freehand method might look like a dog here, I am pretty sure a skater in a blind test will not pick up a difference between that and a machine, minute deviations in the radius, should not be noticeable. 

[Mimizk 114]

To make almost perfect radius onto the runner by freehand is not impossible. But really hard.
Blademaster have been providing us their Custom Radius system though, include Blackstone or Fleming Gray's also, I think these contouring system which provide by the sharpener makers are also not perfect. For example, we notice that its grinding sound is different between come and go. That's strange if the contouring systems which using some gauges are perfect at stone's dressing and operation.
But these systems don't make "valley" on the blade. This is the most biggest difference from freehand. And operator can do it really easy. This is really important thing when someone think to develop such system.

Anyone can't say that the person of your friend can't contour properly by freehand. Not impossible. In actually there are many of greatest craftsmen in the world.

If we put perfect radius on our blade, it will lost its perfection soon after sharpen by freehand. This have been said large issue for long time.
I don't have much skills against this problem. So working on building a system which can sharpen with personal template, not only contouring.

[endomaniac 2]

3 hours ago, Mimizk said:

But these systems don't make "valley" on the blade. This is the most biggest difference from freehand. And operator can do it really easy. This is really important thing when someone think to develop such system.

If I understand this correctly, you are saying that operator does not require many years of experience to do contouring. Further, I can take my runners to most stores with blademaster custom radius system and result will be almost the same? 

[Mimizk 114]

I should answer your question separately.
1st, current contouring machine or systems include Custom Radius can provide us almost same working result even if you utilize another shop. But as I've already wrote, I've been thinking the contouring systems which have been using at stores are not perfect (but very close to perfect) and making its setting for the work is just a human, so honestly it will make slightly difference.
But I have to explain or make sure about what is "contouring" basically. What Custom Radius providing us is 1) Indicate 3points, center balance/thenar/heel from outside length of your boots.  2) Contour runner according to chosen radius template on the basis of set balance point for its center. Especially need to be careful is the latter.
See the radius template. Can you see it as having the same shape of your runner? Of course it is not. What we call "radius" is for a limited section of the blade. We need to contour without template for forward section from thenar point and backward section from heel point. So, Custom Radius exactly can contour blades almost same if anyone use it. This is true. But the grinding work is only one of the section of all profile of the blade.

You are talking this from a viewpoint though, this is also a much problem for example when someone broke his blade on the ice and need to change to new runner or want to have spare runners. Almost cases we don't have enough method to copy the profile.
 

[Kgbeast 195]

3 hours ago, Mimizk said:

You are talking this from a viewpoint though, this is also a much problem for example when someone broke his blade on the ice and need to change to new runner or want to have spare runners. Almost cases we don't have enough method to copy the profile.

 

Why can't you lay old runer atop of new one, align the spines and then use a fine point sharpie to trace the profile on the new blade surface. Then use a cross-grinder to reduce the new runner edge up to the trace line?

[Mimizk 114]

7 hours ago, Kgbeast said:

Why can't you lay old runer atop of new one, align the spines and then use a fine point sharpie to trace the profile on the new blade surface. Then use a cross-grinder to reduce the new runner edge up to the trace line?

Unfortunately you are saying like a shop person whom endomaniac said his posts. In conclusion your thinking is freehand, isn't it? Also I'm wondering how do you align the spines of different height, new and old runners.

I'm thinking to make personal template and all runners copy the same profile from it.

 

[Kgbeast 195]

This was for instance when you have broken blade situation. You do not have to put spines flush together, you can just keep them parallel so they form a step. To make this easier, you can spray the old blade with repositionable adhesive so it stays put while you measuring and moving it around. Once you done with alignment, put the trace line. Once you grind the first one, you can use it to trace the second one. Yes, you would use something like blackstone when you slide the clamp with skate in it freehand since we are talking odd-ball compound profile. The two blades will not be absolutely identical, but they will be within a gnats cock. It is not a rocket science. You take skates to a sharpening 2 times, and you blades will be hillbilly teeth comparing to a fresh pair. And it is not because the sharpening sucks, it is because the left and right skates do not wear the same. I doubt that absolute precession in the skates profiling and sharpening is of any benefit. I am not saying it can be sloppy and miles apart, but there is no need to split hairs.

[Mimizk 114]

Kgbeast,

Already we are talking about little too far from what endomaniac asked when he started this topic. I don't want it.
But if summarize your saying, it will be that you don't mind using freehand for contouring service, won't it? This is my sense though, even I can completely notice just 1mm difference of center balance point. Self repeat though, this is my sense so I don't say this is standard of all people. But I don't want to forgive any difference as thickness of a hair if it possible. Probably as you know, often sharpening operator have been said or mind that possibly finish a sharpening within 5 passes is better. I've been realizing about where did this standard care come from is that not the runner profile loose its original shape if we pass 5 times, but also we human are noticeable as that "this sharpened runner is different from what I've used at last ice time".
Our senses are different each other. So I should say there are people who don't mind to skate without contouring, also there who will be satisfied with freehand contouring, also there who want complete copying device.

 

So endomaniac,
I'd recommend you just test them. As same about what profile is suitable for you, that's no problem if you don't mind with a profile. The way of find out what is correct for you is just do it only.
But according to my sense and experiences, I should say I don't like freehand contouring!