Son Wants to be in Goal

[2nhockey 21]

We got my son all dressed and on the ice in his gear. All gear, or modifications/repairs functioned and worked together well with the exception of the glove. It wouldn't stay on the way he wanted it to, so after we got everything home we modified the glove so it would fit the way he wanted. Hoping wr are gtg now. First night of tryouts is tonight, so we'll see.

2 questions... first, he is currently using his player skates (Easton 85's). While at Play It Again I found some Bauer Supremes on the rack (goalie cut with cowlings) for $50. Will a first year goalie benefit from wearing goalie skates instead of player skates? As a Squirt, if there is more than one goalie on the team, the goalies are required to alternate, meaning he would skate out every other game. How hard is it to adjust from goalie to player skates?

Next, any thoughts on the Itech CA versus the CCM 500 CL?

Thanks for the help! 

[psulion22 402]

I think a big difference between player and goalie skates to consider is the toe protection.  The cowling is there to protect him from shots to the skates.  Player skates do have a hard toe cap, but I've had a lot of pain taking shots to the toes in my player skates that is unnoticeable in my goalie skates.  The other thing is how flat the blade is.  A player skate has significantly more rocker to it.  So sometimes that will cause you to tip forwards when using them in goal.  I've done it a few times when I either forgot my goalie skates, or had an issue.  You do get used to it, but it makes playing goalie more difficult.  I'm a defenseman first, and a goalie second, so I'm switching back and forth often.  I don't notice much of an adjustment between the two, but i do also set my goalie skates up to be as close to player skates as possible - I use taller steel and a 3mm blade.  On regular goalie skates with a 4mm blade, I felt like I was skating on rails.  Will a first year goalie benefit from goalie specific skates?  Maybe.  Wil he need to get them and learn to play in them eventually?  Yes, so why not start now?

Without seeing the c/as i can't say for sure.  Itech used to be a pretty decent brand.  Really though, as long as all the padding is in the right place, and his elbows, arms and neck/collarbone are protected, he'll be fine.  As a skater he'd be wearing much less upper body protection and still be getting hit with shots and surviving.  I'm sure the Itech is still better than any player shoulder pads or what goalies used to wear.  $90 for a probably 10 year old unit seems pricey though.

[2nhockey 21]

We decided to get him the goalie skates after tryouts are over. What you're saying makes sense. His player skates have a 5/8 ROH (the ice is so soft). What ROH for goalie skates? Or do we have to start at 1/2 and just keep getting bigger until we find 'the one'?

We are halfway through tryouts now and everything is going as well as it could. There's been no gear problems at all and he's really enjoying being in net. Given his past experience in goal, which is very little with no position specific coaching he's doing fine. He doesn't like wearing knee pads though, and unbeknownst to me went without last night. We'll be double checking that tonight.

The CCM CA still hasn't arrived. Drives me nuts how slow hockey companies are to ship. It was ordered Friday and UPS says they'll be here Thursday, which is last day of tryouts. Even if UPS gets here early enough for him to wear the CA we're going to have him wear the Itech and put the CCM on him for Friday's open hockey and see which he likes better.

[psulion22 402]

My assumption on those Supremes is that they are a traditional 4mm wide steel.  Up until recently, goalie skates had steel that was 1mm wider than player skates.  Without getting too far into the math of it, the wider steel will give more bite to the same ROH on a player skate.  There are differing opinions on how sharp goalies should get their skates cut.  Some want them dull to make shuffles and T-pushes easier because there's less resistance.  Some want them super sharp to get more bite for butterfly pushes.  Some even offset the outside edge to reduce drag on shuffles and allow them to use a little sharper cut.  If he is used to 5/8" because the ice is soft, you are going to want to start there at the very most.  You may even want to try 11/16".  Going sharper to 1/2" combined with the extra bite of the 4mm steel will probably be way too much for him.  I'm in the camp that plays goal on really, really sharp skates for pushes (I use FBV 100/75 in net, and 95/75 playing out, also on soft ice).  You can learn to shuffle on sharp skates, but there's nothing you can do to get more bite for pushes on dull skates.  Start with more dull skates at first, and gradually make them sharper as he improves his technique.

No knee pads, no playing.  End of story.  If that were my kid, if he did it again, he sits the next game.  But you seem to be on top of it, so I'm sure you'll handle it accordingly.  Find out why he doesn't like them.  There are many different styles of knee pads.  Maybe there's something with this specific pair that would be resolved in a different barnd or style.  Maybe he just doesn't want to wear them.  In that case, too bad, so sad.

I use Ice Warehouse whenever possible.  Their stock, especially in goalie gear, is limited.  But they usually ship the same day, and most purchases over $199 ship 2 day for free (if they are under 10 lbs dimensionally).  2 day shipping on purchases under $199 is only $5.

[2nhockey 21]

IDK for sure that the Supreme's featured wider steel, but I recall thinking the steel was different than player steel. From memory there seemed to be little or no rocker/radius, there wasn't an obvious way to replace it because it seemed to be fused to the cowling, and it did seem wider. I don't even know for sure which Supreme it was. I'll pick them up as soon as I can verify fit and go from there. 

[psulion22 402]

Goalie skates have much less rocker/radius than player skates.  For example, most (adult) player skates are in the 9 or 10' range.  Goalie skates are in the 28-30' radius range.  It helps with stability and push for goalies, and is another reason for your son to get goalie skates.

If the steel is fused to the cowling, then it is almost definitely 4mm steel.  Bauer didn't starting using the 3mm steel on goalie skates until the One100, which had a removeable runner (with the nut on the front) on the Vertexx cowling that has a cut out on the inside ball of the foot area.  The only exception I could see to this is if the skates were custom ordered (I don't know if that was even an option prior to the One100) or if they use 3mm steel on kids' sized skates.  If he is using adult sized skates, then they are almost 100% 4mm it the steel is fused.

If they look like this, they are 4mm steel fused to the cowling (assuming the two conditions above don't apply).  The size of the cowling on the inside is the give away. 

 

[2nhockey 21]

Tryouts wrapped up and he had a pretty bad showing on the last night. Ended up having strap issues and problems with straps wrapping behind the tendon guard on his player skates. Just went poorly and since he's new to this he was having a tough time identifying problems and fixes... oh well.

Went today and picked up goalie skates off the used rack. Pretty slim selection but ended up with a pair of Reebok 12k's. I have no idea how good or bad these skates are. He said they were comfy and they fit him so we got them. The Bauer Supremes were causing him ankle pain.

Sharpened the Reeboks to 5/8 and we're headed out to open skate to see if he can skate in them.

[IPv6Freely 2092]

Take lots of video from behind the net. That's by far the best way to see the mistakes!

[2nhockey 21]

Ok, I can do that. Need to get a video camera first, though. Recommendations? 

Open skate on the new skates started pretty badly but by the end of the night he seemed pretty comfortable. I think the 5/8 radius was too much, though. He was complaining that the skates were too grabby. I'll give it a week of practice and try a 3/4 radius if we need to. I think the relatively flat rocker was the hardest thing for him to adjust to. 

For sure, the longer, wider blade has a learning curve attached to it. The skates are also noticeably heavier than his player skates.

We've been running 100 MPH for hockey, especially getting the goalie gear assembled this week. My son's team was supposed to practice this afternoon but that was cancelled. Actually, I am kind of grateful for the day off!

I appreciate all the help getting him up and running. We had no idea about the position a couple weeks ago except we did know all teams had to have a goalie. The equipment help here has been great, and YouTube has been great for showing the order of operations when it comes to getting him geared up. 

[IPv6Freely 2092]

5 hours ago, 2nhockey said:

Ok, I can do that. Need to get a video camera first, though. Recommendations? 

Open skate on the new skates started pretty badly but by the end of the night he seemed pretty comfortable. I think the 5/8 radius was too much, though. He was complaining that the skates were too grabby. I'll give it a week of practice and try a 3/4 radius if we need to. I think the relatively flat rocker was the hardest thing for him to adjust to. 

For sure, the longer, wider blade has a learning curve attached to it. The skates are also noticeably heavier than his player skates.

We've been running 100 MPH for hockey, especially getting the goalie gear assembled this week. My son's team was supposed to practice this afternoon but that was cancelled. Actually, I am kind of grateful for the day off!

I appreciate all the help getting him up and running. We had no idea about the position a couple weeks ago except we did know all teams had to have a goalie. The equipment help here has been great, and YouTube has been great for showing the order of operations when it comes to getting him geared up. 

I'd just use my phone for video if you're going to be there. Otherwise I use a gopro with a suction mount stuck to the glass.

[deej 19]

3 hours ago, IPv6Freely said:

I'd just use my phone for video if you're going to be there. Otherwise I use a gopro with a suction mount stuck to the glass.

Don't do this unless you can get someone else to do it.  

Suction mounted or tripod is fine though.

Rule no. 1 for goalie parents (especially younger ones) is do not stand behind their net. They will continuously look at you for reassurance and not focus on the game. If they can't see the rest of the ice whilst doing this then they're already at a disadvantage for the numerous squirt/atom house league breakaways.

Not behind the goal line is minimum, the closer to centre line, the better.

[2nhockey 21]

Makes sense - thank you. 

He's playing travel, not house, so I won't make all the games because my daughter is also playing travel and the arrangement is on days with conflicts I travel with the away team, and if they're both away I travel with the team going to the bigger city and my wife goes with the other team.

Now that we have him geared up head to toe in goalie gear I'm looking forward to his first practice as a through-and-through goalie. I expect it will be really tough on him to adapt at first, but expect sizeable improvements on maybe even a weekly basis.  We'll see how much fun he's having in a month or so when first games start.

[IPv6Freely 2092]

The improvements will be huge at first, but will quickly plateau. So you need to make sure to keep him positive and realizing that he's playing the hardest position on the ice and to keep that in perspective. 

[2nhockey 21]

A week of practices later... the coaches aren't sure what to do with goalies so they've been having the goalies work the same skating drills as the skaters while in full gear. Actually I think the skating drills are good for both goalies as both my son and the other goalie are learning how to manage their movement better in their pads. 

The boy just started wearing the CCM chest on Friday. That thing is huge! It fits him fine, arms are good and all that, but I think it adds 50% more bulk to him than the Itech CA. He is able to move ok in the CCM but it looks comically large on him and seems way overkill for Squirts. Any suggestions on the way to go here? He says the CCM is better, but I am not positive if it's better for him or just new. 

[IPv6Freely 2092]

On 11/7/2016 at 8:34 AM, 2nhockey said:

A week of practices later... the coaches aren't sure what to do with goalies so they've been having the goalies work the same skating drills as the skaters while in full gear. Actually I think the skating drills are good for both goalies as both my son and the other goalie are learning how to manage their movement better in their pads. 

The boy just started wearing the CCM chest on Friday. That thing is huge! It fits him fine, arms are good and all that, but I think it adds 50% more bulk to him than the Itech CA. He is able to move ok in the CCM but it looks comically large on him and seems way overkill for Squirts. Any suggestions on the way to go here? He says the CCM is better, but I am not positive if it's better for him or just new. 

Nothing wrong with skating drills! Though some goalie specific stuff would be nice, too. The first 3 weeks of the rookie leagues here are all drills. Mostly skating and stuff, and the coaches TRIED to do some "goalie drills" which ended up being not much more than just taking some shots at me. Kind of useless. So hopefully he can get more than that. Check out the W Goaltending series if you want something to watch. 

As for the chesty... if it fits him, and he says it's better, then he can't be too unhappy about the size and bulk of it. So, just let him keep using it. It will also break in and become more mobile as well. I totally understand about sizing... the difference between my low end Bauer Reactor chest protector and my Passau was kind of ridiculous. 

[2nhockey 21]

We've been watching some videos and working out a little at home with tennis balls and such. Progress is certainly being made, and the skating drills at practice seem to be helping.

He had his first games of the year yesterday. For the first game the coaches had him skate out as a defenseman. It was the first time this year he was in player gear and he did ok. We lost 12-3.

Second game the coaches had him in net and he played an outstanding game. He faced over 30 shots, and stopped all but 5. Ultimately lost 5-4 but he kept his team in the game and they ultimately named him player of the game despite the loss. Given the next to zero training he's had I thought his performance was phenomenal. I felt bad for him because he put on a great show but let the 5th goal in with 11 seconds left in the game, but his teammates were supportive. 

We're still having issues with his pads twisting to his outside. When we repaired the toe ties which had inexplicably been cut off I put the ties in what I thought was their original spots. One of the coaches said he thought the ties were on wrong because he thought they should be centered on the pads. Where I put them they are definitely not centered. The ties are certainly inside of centerline,  which makes me feel like that's the reason the pads are twisting out. So, I'll be cutting and stitching tonight to see if we can get it. I'll know tomorrow as he's going to a once a week goalie clinic starting tomorrow night.

[psulion22 402]

23 hours ago, 2nhockey said:

We've been watching some videos and working out a little at home with tennis balls and such. Progress is certainly being made, and the skating drills at practice seem to be helping.

He had his first games of the year yesterday. For the first game the coaches had him skate out as a defenseman. It was the first time this year he was in player gear and he did ok. We lost 12-3.

Second game the coaches had him in net and he played an outstanding game. He faced over 30 shots, and stopped all but 5. Ultimately lost 5-4 but he kept his team in the game and they ultimately named him player of the game despite the loss. Given the next to zero training he's had I thought his performance was phenomenal. I felt bad for him because he put on a great show but let the 5th goal in with 11 seconds left in the game, but his teammates were supportive. 

We're still having issues with his pads twisting to his outside. When we repaired the toe ties which had inexplicably been cut off I put the ties in what I thought was their original spots. One of the coaches said he thought the ties were on wrong because he thought they should be centered on the pads. Where I put them they are definitely not centered. The ties are certainly inside of centerline,  which makes me feel like that's the reason the pads are twisting out. So, I'll be cutting and stitching tonight to see if we can get it. I'll know tomorrow as he's going to a once a week goalie clinic starting tomorrow night.

The ties can be offset to the inside.  It's a preference thing.  It shouldn't be causing the pads to fail to return to normal.   That's a strapping issue, plain and simple.  Make the pads as loose as they go and see what happens.  If it's still happening, then take some of the slack out of the toes or move to elastic.

[2nhockey 21]

Ok. So should the toes be tight? 

All straps are nylon compression buckle straps except the toe ties and the 1 leather strap with buckle that goes in the holder. Should that one be tight as well?

[IPv6Freely 2092]

46 minutes ago, 2nhockey said:

Ok. So should the toes be tight? 

All straps are nylon compression buckle straps except the toe ties and the 1 leather strap with buckle that goes in the holder. Should that one be tight as well?

No you definitely want the boot strap loose. That's one of those things left over from the old days when you WANTED your pads to not move on your leg at all. Some people don't even wear them at all. Mine are elastic. 

As for toe ties, also quite loose. At least a couple inches slack with some knots in them. 

[psulion22 402]

The leather boot straps should be as loose as they can be when the pad is sitting in the right place.  That's all they are there for nowadays.  If that is too tight, the pad will not rotate properly, especially returning back into place.  

The toe ties should have some slack in them, but not too much.  Ideally, they should be long enough to allow the goalie to point his toes down towards the ice while keeping the pad flat and facing forwards.  That length will vary by goalie depending on how far he points his toes.  Some keep their toes parallel to the ice, some have them touching the ice (like I do).  It's all affected by flexibility and technique.

You should be able to pull up on the boot of the pad and lift it completely off the skate, sightly at least.  If you can't do that, the boot strap and/or toe ties are too tight.  And again, go with elastic.  It allows flexibility and movement while still having control.  A $3 set of bungees and some zip ties will work just as well, if not better, than the retail elastic toe ties, and be easier to take on and off as well.

[2nhockey 21]

Thanks so much for the help! 

[IPv6Freely 2092]

No problem!