Tblades?

[sNIpEr3 0]

Ok!!!

[Eazy_b97 1]

I find T'blades were good for consistancy and they beat your average sharpener. If you have a place where you can go and get consistant, good sharpenings then T'blades aren't worth it in my opinion. I've used both T'blades and regular holders and it is a bit of a toss up, but there are reasons I am opting to stick with Lightspeeds. I like the feel of conventional holders a little bit more, cost (T'blades were less) was a non-issue and I sharpen my own skates so I am able to have them exactly how I like at not be at the mercy of my LHS. I agree the Cosmetics are definately a drawback (Why can't they look like normal holders?) and the noise is just awful.

[Jason Harris 31]

I agree the Cosmetics are definately a drawback (Why can't they look like normal holders?) and the noise is just awful.

From a marketing stanpoint, I sometimes think that T-Blade over-engineered the holder initially.

It's probable that some players haven't tried the T-Blades because they're concerned about being laughed at. So, I think T-Blade might have penetrated more quickly if they came up with a replaceable blade in a traditional style holder that they could show improved performance. Then, a year or two later, they could come out with the circular holder, saying they've discovered a breakthrough design, that the new holder is 71% lighter than the legacy holder. At that point, if they have enough guys buying into the concept of their blades as being better performing, they probably would have more players willing to adopt a change in performance.

To me, it's dependent on the cause of the noise whether it's awful. If the noise comes from plastic rubbing on plastic, then they should be working a lot of late hours trying to minimize it, because it obviously is slowing the adoption. I don't think it is so much the plastic, however, as I've tried stressing the blade as hard as I can in my hands to create noise, but no sounds occured.

So, if the noise is coming from players cutting the ice better due to the sharper blades, is that awful? I'd say no, because there are some players who are louder than others in regular skates. We once played against this stocky guy of about thirty-five who was a great skater. We all were remarking on the bench, "Geez, did you hear that guy? Man, you can hear him really cut the ice. Wow."

I think the noise from T-Blades is similar -- players are cutting the ice better. Under that premise, I'd say the noise isn't so much awful as an unfortunate side affect.

[pantherfan 0]

t-blades are good because where i live people can't sharpen skates for shit

but there are alot of people against them saying stuff like they are weak and a puck'll go straight through it (dont know a bout that) and the stabalisers crack for no reason so thats why i'm switching maybe to lightspeeds and because in my LHS i can't get different rockers for them

Also loads of not very good skaters are getting them because they are cheap

(CCM Vector ZG 90-100's ) in my LHS anyway, so they look pretty common like the Bauer Vapour range

[NuggyBuggy 0]

So, if the noise is coming from players cutting the ice better due to the sharper blades, is that awful? I'd say no, because there are some players who are louder than others in regular skates. We once played against this stocky guy of about thirty-five who was a great skater. We all were remarking on the bench, "Geez, did you hear that guy? Man, you can hear him really cut the ice. Wow."

I once took a hockey class from a guy who claimed that you should never hear noise when you skate, that any noise indicates wasted energy, but then I took a Laura Stamm power-skating class run by a guy who had just recently bought new skates.

I think but am not sure, that they were top-end Grafs with t-blades. Anyways, he was REALLY loud, you could hear the ice crunching in a way I had never heard before, all the way down the rink, but he was absolutely flying. At first I just assumed this was because of his stride was clearly so powerful, but then I heard his other instructors all remarking about how nice the skates were, but how obscenely loud they were too.

What does this mean ? I'm not sure, but I came away with the conclusion that loud skates isn't necessarily a bad thing.

I also wonder whether there would be a tiny psychological advantage to have those loud crunching noises as you're bearing down on someone from behind, because they would sound like you're right behind the guy, or whether they would have the effect of "announcing" to your opponent exactly where you are.

[Jason Harris 31]

I also wonder whether there would be a tiny psychological advantage to have those loud crunching noises as you're bearing down on someone from behind, because they would sound like you're right behind the guy, or whether they would have the effect of "announcing" to your opponent exactly where you are.

I think it might depend if you play checking versus rec hockey. If you're a heavy hitter, and other players know it, I think the noise is an advantage, because some players will go a bit more timidly into the corners. In non-check hockey, however, it could tip off players more than intimidate them.

Having said that, I'd rather be able to skate with greater agility yet more noise, than less agilely with less noise. Because, if I'm the one with the puck, I think we no longer have to worry about sneaking about....

[Rustybender 0]

I'll throw my theory in as to what makes the noise. Last Thursday was the first time I skated on t'blades. I was expecting the noise, but when I heard it, it sounded very familiar to me. It took me awhile to nail it down, but I figured it out.

It sounded like warmups before a 6:00am January practice. The rink is freezing inside and the ice is extra hard. Those first few laps where the cold air stings your lungs and makes your eyes water. The sounds of skating during those first few laps sounds very much like skating on t'blades to me. "crunch - crunch - crunch "

So what makes 6am ice sound different? I have to assume it's temperature differential. The warm blade on extra cold ice is actually causing the ice to crack and squeak. (ever poor boiling water over ice?) As practice goes on, the blade cools down and the noise subsides.

So, if I'm right about temperature differential being the cause, and t'blade's claims about their blades heating up faster are true, then it would only make sense that t'blades would make more noise because they are warmer.

Just a theory, but it sounds plausible. If it's true, then there's not alot that can be done without sacraficing performance.

[Eazy_b97 1]

Salming - I'm a big crunch guy either way, so with the T'blades it just louder. I never noticed a plastic type sound, just the added crunch noise. I wasn't never a very "pretty skater", but have been a loud one for a while.

Panther fan - Cracking the stabalizers doesn't really make a difference. I was told as long as they can stay in place they'll do their job. I had mine for a full year with the same broken stabalizers.

NuggyBuggy - That theory does kind've make sense, but I don't see much truth to it. IF you get a chance go down to a Pro game, and sneak into the first row (preferably behind the bench) in the warm-ups, its all you'll hear. There's a few factors like weight and depth of hollow, but everyone is crunching the ice as much as possible.

[Jason Harris 31]

I'll throw my theory in as to what makes the noise. Last Thursday was the first time I skated on t'blades. I was expecting the noise, but when I heard it, it sounded very familiar to me. It took me awhile to nail it down, but I figured it out.

It sounded like warmups before a 6:00am January practice. The rink is freezing inside and the ice is extra hard. Those first few laps where the cold air stings your lungs and makes your eyes water. The sounds of skating during those first few laps sounds very much like skating on t'blades to me. "crunch - crunch - crunch "

So what makes 6am ice sound different? I have to assume it's temperature differential. The warm blade on extra cold ice is actually causing the ice to crack and squeak. (ever poor boiling water over ice?) As practice goes on, the blade cools down and the noise subsides.

So, if I'm right about temperature differential being the cause, and t'blade's claims about their blades heating up faster are true, then it would only make sense that t'blades would make more noise because they are warmer.

Just a theory, but it sounds plausible. If it's true, then there's not alot that can be done without sacraficing performance.

RustyBender, that is a very interesting theory. And I agree, it is plausible.

[jimmy 194]

Having said that, I'd rather be able to skate with greater agility yet more noise, than less agilely with less noise. Because, if I'm the one with the puck, I think we no longer have to worry about sneaking about....

Curious, how exactly do t-blades offer more agility as compared to a properly sharpened and radiused conventional skate?

[Jason Harris 31]

Having said that, I'd rather be able to skate with greater agility yet more noise, than less agilely with less noise. Because, if I'm the one with the puck, I think we no longer have to worry about sneaking about....

Curious, how exactly do t-blades offer more agility as compared to a properly sharpened and radiused conventional skate?

If you were to compare two evenly sharpened and radiused blades, the T-Blade has much less metal -- the blade is thinner across the top and much shorter from ice to holder. Consequently, the blade literally flexes when you turn, shortening your turning radius.

There are two common statements I hear from players after they try T-Blades the first time. They feel like they forgot how to skate and yet they noticed they could turn more sharply. After 3-5 skates they'll get the stride down with the T-Blades; ususally it entails bending the knees more.

[Chadd 916]

they feel like they give less bite and are sliding out from under me despite having a deeper hollow than I normally use. I also find that they feel slower, as I would expect a deeper hollow to feel.

[hockechamp14 0]

they feel like they give less bite and are sliding out from under me despite having a deeper hollow than I normally use. I also find that they feel slower, as I would expect a deeper hollow to feel.

Yeah, that was the problem the kid down the hall from me had when he got his, then promptly changed to lightspeeds. He felt as if he wasn't cutting into the ice at all, and didn't get a good feel for the ice. I see no reason to get them if you are at all happy with any of the holders on the market.

Edit-- I also hear there are plans to create a new t-blade, but not much work has been done on it yet. From what I hear they plan on doing a lot of stuff this summer. Can anyone confirm anything?

[Jason Harris 31]

they feel like they give less bite and are sliding out from under me despite having a deeper hollow than I normally use. I also find that they feel slower, as I would expect a deeper hollow to feel.

That's actually a fairly common reaction, Chadd. I felt like I was skating on butter knives for the first five times yet, at the same time, I could tell that I could turn more sharply.

The thing is, compared to most skates, you're about half-an-inch closer to the ice and that affects the angles of your push-off. Basically, you probably need to bend your knees deeper than you're accustomed to, which is generally a good thing for most of us. You can see what I mean by taking a skate with a conventional blade and tilting it until the blade is on its edge. Now copy that angle with the T-Blade and you'll see that it's more on the bottom of the blade and less on the edge. For the T-Blade to get onto its edge, you'll have to tilt it closer to the ground.

Now, I've had friends tell me they shouldn't have to alter their skating stride to fit a skate, and that's a fair argument. But it's not as though you have to overbend to skate with the T-Blades. You can still skate with the T-Blade while your knees are bent less than all the skating schools teach us, but you will have to bend more than you're probably accustomed to on your regular skates.

Trust me! :D

[Jason Harris 31]

they feel like they give less bite and are sliding out from under me despite having a deeper hollow than I normally use. I also find that they feel slower, as I would expect a deeper hollow to feel.

Yeah, that was the problem the kid down the hall from me had when he got his, then promptly changed to lightspeeds. He felt as if he wasn't cutting into the ice at all, and didn't get a good feel for the ice. I see no reason to get them if you are at all happy with any of the holders on the market.

Edit-- I also hear there are plans to create a new t-blade, but not much work has been done on it yet. From what I hear they plan on doing a lot of stuff this summer. Can anyone confirm anything?

I spoke to the VP at Graf during the Vegas show. He didn't mention anything about a revamp, but it does get hectic during the show.

[Jbone 0]

I'll throw my theory in as to what makes the noise. Last Thursday was the first time I skated on t'blades. I was expecting the noise, but when I heard it, it sounded very familiar to me. It took me awhile to nail it down, but I figured it out.

It sounded like warmups before a 6:00am January practice. The rink is freezing inside and the ice is extra hard. Those first few laps where the cold air stings your lungs and makes your eyes water. The sounds of skating during those first few laps sounds very much like skating on t'blades to me. "crunch - crunch - crunch "

So what makes 6am ice sound different? I have to assume it's temperature differential. The warm blade on extra cold ice is actually causing the ice to crack and squeak. (ever poor boiling water over ice?) As practice goes on, the blade cools down and the noise subsides.

So, if I'm right about temperature differential being the cause, and t'blade's claims about their blades heating up faster are true, then it would only make sense that t'blades would make more noise because they are warmer.

Just a theory, but it sounds plausible. If it's true, then there's not alot that can be done without sacraficing performance.

When I first got them mine crunched like a mother but now (a year later) you can't here them unless you try to make them crunch.

[jimmy 194]

Having said that, I'd rather be able to skate with greater agility yet more noise, than less agilely with less noise. Because, if I'm the one with the puck, I think we no longer have to worry about sneaking about....

Curious, how exactly do t-blades offer more agility as compared to a properly sharpened and radiused conventional skate?

If you were to compare two evenly sharpened and radiused blades, the T-Blade has much less metal -- the blade is thinner across the top and much shorter from ice to holder. Consequently, the blade literally flexes when you turn, shortening your turning radius.

There are two common statements I hear from players after they try T-Blades the first time. They feel like they forgot how to skate and yet they noticed they could turn more sharply. After 3-5 skates they'll get the stride down with the T-Blades; ususally it entails bending the knees more.

I'm sorry to be argumentative here, but..... are these players who use t-blades for the first time using custom radiused blades or stock blades? If they had been using stock regular blades, yes a t-blade could have a better turning radius. I see and hear the exact same results after a player skates on a pair of custom radiused regular blades after having skated on his old stock blades. Another variable to be considered is that t-blades have even edges and that could be the reason they feel better, especially if the player had been skating on blades sharpened by a poor sharpener who creates uneven edges.

I'll be upfront. I think the t-blade sales pitch is mostly hype. I've yet to see independent studes, i.e, anything other than manufacturer claims, that show a t-blade has any performance gains over a properly sharpened and radiused blade. In fact, I've querried physics scientists who all have debunked the t-blade claim that the thin piece of steel heats up and melts ice better. In fact, they say, the opposite is true. Less mass= quicker loss of heat. This is basic physics.

As you can tell, I'm not a proponent of t-blades. All my customers who have had them have subsequently changed back to regular blades. They hated them. They also did not report that the steel holds edges any longer than regular steel. The true fact is that as steel dulls, the skater gets "use" to the duller steel and compensates skating to adjust. Even with regular steel, a skater can go months skating on dull blades. I see this ALL the time. T-blades are no different. You can skate a year on them if you want, but significant performance is lost. If you don't mind the loss in performance, then it's no problem. Most serious skaters demand nice fresh edges, something only a skate sharpener can do, unless of course you are rich and want to change your t-blades often. And that's my whole argument, t-blades are great if you can't find a decent sharpener, but in the long run, they will cost you a fortune.

[jimmy 194]

salmingusa, nevermind. I see Salming sells skates with t-blades. That certainly does explain your biased opinion. Not that there is anything wrong with bieng biased, just that that should be known upfront. If i was working for Ford, you would want to know, especially if I did reviews with glowing Ford reports. That way what I say could be taken with a grain of salt.

[Kovy_Ribs_Fedo 3]

Having said that, I'd rather be able to skate with greater agility yet more noise, than less agilely with less noise. Because, if I'm the one with the puck, I think we no longer have to worry about sneaking about....

Curious, how exactly do t-blades offer more agility as compared to a properly sharpened and radiused conventional skate?

If you were to compare two evenly sharpened and radiused blades, the T-Blade has much less metal -- the blade is thinner across the top and much shorter from ice to holder. Consequently, the blade literally flexes when you turn, shortening your turning radius.

There are two common statements I hear from players after they try T-Blades the first time. They feel like they forgot how to skate and yet they noticed they could turn more sharply. After 3-5 skates they'll get the stride down with the T-Blades; ususally it entails bending the knees more.

I'm sorry to be argumentative here, but..... are these players who use t-blades for the first time using custom radiused blades or stock blades? If they had been using stock regular blades, yes a t-blade could have a better turning radius. I see and hear the exact same results after a player skates on a pair of custom radiused regular blades after having skated on his old stock blades. Another variable to be considered is that t-blades have even edges and that could be the reason they feel better, especially if the player had been skating on blades sharpened by a poor sharpener who creates uneven edges.

I'll be upfront. I think the t-blade sales pitch is mostly hype. I've yet to see independent studes, i.e, anything other than manufacturer claims, that show a t-blade has any performance gains over a properly sharpened and radiused blade. In fact, I've querried physics scientists who all have debunked the t-blade claim that the thin piece of steel heats up and melts ice better. In fact, they say, the opposite is true. Less mass= quicker loss of heat. This is basic physics.

As you can tell, I'm not a proponent of t-blades. All my customers who have had them have subsequently changed back to regular blades. They hated them. They also did not report that the steel holds edges any longer than regular steel. The true fact is that as steel dulls, the skater gets "use" to the duller steel and compensates skating to adjust. Even with regular steel, a skater can go months skating on dull blades. I see this ALL the time. T-blades are no different. You can skate a year on them if you want, but significant performance is lost. If you don't mind the loss in performance, then it's no problem. Most serious skaters demand nice fresh edges, something only a skate sharpener can do, unless of course you are rich and want to change your t-blades often. And that's my whole argument, t-blades are great if you can't find a decent sharpener, but in the long run, they will cost you a fortune.

It would have took me the whole day to write this. Anyway, nice point, very well said. All my friend who have had T-Blabes have recently changed to normal holder.

[NuggyBuggy 0]

In fact, I've querried physics scientists who all have debunked the t-blade claim that the thin piece of steel heats up and melts ice better.  In fact, they say, the opposite is true.  Less mass= quicker loss of heat. This is basic physics.

That isn't quite what they claim, though. The t-blade website does not claim that the *metal* gets hotter; rather they claim that the resin of the holder retains the heat, thereby heating up the metal:

When you skate frictional heat is produced. With a conventional blade system this heat is lost, because the steel can not absorb any of it. The resin a t-blade runner is made of however, can store this frictional heat and the thin steel band heats up by up to almost 4°C. This, by the way, is what we call the thermo-effect which gave t-blade its name. How does this make you faster? When gliding over the ice smoothly the blade runs on a thin waterfilm. The more water, the smoother and the faster the glide! Of course a warmer runner melts more ice, meaning the waterfilm you skate on is more stable.

And that's my whole argument, t-blades are great if you can't find a decent sharpener, but in the long run, they will cost you a fortune.

Will they ? What I think this calls for is an analysis of how many skates guys get off t-blades versus how many skates guys get off a sharpening. I don't have t-blades, but I'm looking at them. At my LHS, I can buy a t-blade for $15 CDN. A sharpening costs me $5. But I could buy 5 t-blades at once, whereas each sharpening requires me to drive out to my LHS. Now I am lucky in that I live relatively close to one from the downtown Toronto area, but it's still a 20-min drive each way. I have no idea what that gas and wear-and-tear on my car is worth, but let's call it $3. So if a t-blade lasts me twice as long as a sharpening, then it's a wash, any longer and I'd be saving money. And all this ignores: a) the possibility of getting a crappy sharpening, in which case I have to go back the next day, b ) the negotiation I have to go through with my wife to get the car, c) the 5-10 minutes I waste walking around my LHS while my sharpening is being done, and d) the extra money I spend while looking at stuff during c) ;)

One worry I have: if the strip of metal is so thin, what happens when you, say, crash into a goal post blade-first ? Is the blade ruined ? Is it skateable ? i.e. how well does the thin t-blade handle the dings that regular blades get all the time ?

[sherwood21 0]

  At my LHS, I can buy a t-blade for $15 CDN.  A sharpening costs me $5.  But I could buy 5 t-blades at once, whereas each sharpening requires me to drive out to my LHS. 

Then play on a team where you coach sharpens skates (hint, hint... :D ). I haven't paid for a sharpening in 6 months, I love it.

[cobrAA 0]

Nuggybuggy----if you crash a goal...yes your blade are ruined well depends by how much your blade touch the post...it happened to me one time in 2 year...i did not pick the water on my blade after a game...the game after it was all orange( i dont know the term in english) and made me fall to time in 2 lap of a 2 minute warm-up!(i just used this blade 1 time..it was the last game...)

where i live i pay 25CND a pair...that why i dont know if i will go back to regular blade..if they were 15CND i would be all over them!!

[Chadd 916]

they feel like they give less bite and are sliding out from under me despite having a deeper hollow than I normally use. I also find that they feel slower, as I would expect a deeper hollow to feel.

That's actually a fairly common reaction, Chadd. I felt like I was skating on butter knives for the first five times yet, at the same time, I could tell that I could turn more sharply.

The thing is, compared to most skates, you're about half-an-inch closer to the ice and that affects the angles of your push-off. Basically, you probably need to bend your knees deeper than you're accustomed to, which is generally a good thing for most of us. You can see what I mean by taking a skate with a conventional blade and tilting it until the blade is on its edge. Now copy that angle with the T-Blade and you'll see that it's more on the bottom of the blade and less on the edge. For the T-Blade to get onto its edge, you'll have to tilt it closer to the ground.

Now, I've had friends tell me they shouldn't have to alter their skating stride to fit a skate, and that's a fair argument. But it's not as though you have to overbend to skate with the T-Blades. You can still skate with the T-Blade while your knees are bent less than all the skating schools teach us, but you will have to bend more than you're probably accustomed to on your regular skates.

Trust me! :D

I do not turn better with t'blades, I can feel them skip and slide when I corner. Deeper knee bend is required because the holder does not have much forward pitch at all and this is coming from a guy who hates Graf because I feel like a ski jumper in them. I get very low when I skate with a ton of knee bend, moreso than most. I'm not sure it would be possible, let alone practical, to bend my knees more.

I believe this was also posted somewhere, t'blades do have a new model coming out. I will let Dr Kunz post the specs/information on it.

[Jason Harris 31]

salmingusa, nevermind.  I see Salming sells skates with t-blades.  That certainly does explain your biased opinion.  Not that there is anything wrong with bieng biased, just that that should be known upfront.  If i was working for Ford, you would want to know, especially if I did reviews with glowing Ford reports.  That way what I say could be taken with a grain of salt.

Jimmy,

If I haven't mentioned it in this thread that Salming sells skates with T-Blades, I wasn't trying to hide anything; it was quite clear in another recent thread that we do. We've also sold skates without T-Blades, so my arguments are for the T-Blade system, not Salming skates. Or, put another way, I think it would be a shame if the T-Blade system doesn't stick.

You raise a valid point, however, that perhaps I would have noticed similar results if my previous skates had been professionally radiused; it would have been interesting to have had that baseline comparison. I don't agree with you, however, that I've learned to compensate with duller skates. I used to have my skates sharpened after every four to five skates, and I've gone far beyond that with the T-Blades without them showing similar signs of dullness.

This is all obviously personal preference. But I think there are many people who don't give the engineering behind the T-Blade enough credence because of the strange appearance. I also think there are people expressing their opinions on the T-Blade without ever trying them. I'm the type the tries new things and I found improved agility the first time I skated with them, even though I felt I was skating on butter knives initially.

I guess my question is did T-Blade's engineer(s) completely waste the company's money, or is there perhaps some science behind the choices they made. I'll start another controversial topic right here which has a similar vein. People have panned Nautilus and machines for years. I use both regularly, but what I find unfathomable is the concept that millions of dollars of research can't improve upon the fact that a five-pound weight is five pounds because gravity causes a mass of that size to be five pounds in a straight line from the ground.

To me, it's the same thing with the T-Blade. It's not like their engineers have been trying to con the market. They think they've come up with a system that will allow players to skate better. If you're old enough, you may remember similar reticence switching from steel holders to plastic.

[jimmy 194]

salmingusa,

Sorry, I wasn't implying you were trying to hide anything. I visted the salming site and saw the t-blades on their skates. I just like to let folks know when reviews of products are provided that it is known that those who sell the product can have biased reviews. I.E., you don't see manufacturer reps on these forumss giving glowing reviews of other manufacturers stuff. Rare to say the least.

As for the science of t-blades, up to now all we've seen is manufacturer claims and anecdotal evidence. Sometimes the "self-fullfilling prophecy" is amazing.

When independent controlled test results are done, if the t-blade is everything the manufacturer claims, I'll be the first to support it. The proof that it is better performance wise will be when the pros embrace it en mass.