Made in China

[Chadd 916]

Here's one reason some people have problems with manufacturers using Chinese labor.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/asiapcf/12/0...t.ap/index.html

[jibby93 0]

Thats crazy the police just randomly opened fire into the crowd

[Gongshow11 1]

i hate to say it but without foreign manufacturing, u would be payign double what you are now

[asdfa 0]

that's horrible, china really needs improve it's human rights.

if outsourcing labor to countries like china was stopped though, the global economy would be ruined.

[Eazy_b97 1]

i hate to say it but without foreign manufacturing, u would be payign double what you are now

...or the manufacturers just wouldn't be making record profits of cuts in labour due to outsourcing.

[flaming_june 2]

dont forget the labour camps the chinese communist party have that help make our everyday products.

[toroytorero 0]

manifest destiny china.

[beaucoup_fish 0]

This is about farmers and compensation for land use, not factory labourers...

Every manufacturing nation has labour issues, not just China. If you are so passionately set against the use of unfair labour practices (partially and to a significant extent perpetrated and influenced by AMERICAN companies) in countries where your skates/sticks/gloves are manufactured, don't use products made anywhere outside of North America/Western Europe. Good luck outfitting yourself though...

Eazy, it's kind of a win-win situation for those of us that play the sport and are lucky enough to live in a developed G8 nation. The companies that make the products are profiting, and we consumers are saving from reduced labour costs. Of course, there are rights issues of the overseas workers, but that's a different story.

And about police randomly firing into the crowd, this is CNN, home of sensationalist media spin - which should be enough to make you think twice, aside from the fact that the word "random," is no-where to be found in the article...

[Eazy_b97 1]

Eazy, it's kind of a win-win situation for those of us that play the sport and are lucky enough to live in a developed G8 nation. The companies that make the products are profiting, and we consumers are saving from reduced labour costs. Of course, there are rights issues of the overseas workers, but that's a different story.

I don't think $700 CAD for skates is "low", they take the cheap labour and put it in the profit margins rather than price for the most part.

[beaucoup_fish 0]

Eazy, it's kind of a win-win situation for those of us that play the sport and are lucky enough to live in a developed G8 nation.  The companies that make the products are profiting, and we consumers are saving from reduced labour costs.  Of course, there are rights issues of the overseas workers, but that's a different story.

I don't think $700 CAD for skates is "low", they take the cheap labour and put it in the profit margins rather than price for the most part.

For the most part, yes, but the cost of a skate or any other peice of equipment isn't derived solely from labour - if that were the case, the items made in North America would probaby run you somewhere in the neighbourhood of 115-200 times what a comparable product made in Asia does. Keep in mind that the $700 skate (I've yet to see one, though) is what the retailer is charging you, not the manufacturer.

From a manufacturing perspective, Bauer/Graf/THC/Easton/Whoever, in charging so much for a skate due to the high cost of R&D and materials, as well as labour and other factors. They obviously don't expect to sell millions of their $700 skate, so they need to calculate the price at which they are going to sell the skate to retailers based on a reasonable estimate of sales by volume.

[Eazy_b97 1]

The price of Bauers tops end skates have doubled since the Nike buy-out. Since the merger they've moved most of their production overseas. From 1997-99 the worlds 40 richest people (mostly american) accumulated an average of over $400 million in that time above their initial cost. The savings are not being passed onto the customer. The product's cost is not based purely on labour, but it is a large factor. Is the price in labour dropped from $10/hr to $.03/hr (estimates) in their moves out of Canada, then I doubt R & D all off a sudden popped out of nowhere and had incredible increases to offset the labour savings and encourage a doubling in price over 10 years.

Easton Synergy skates, and Vapor XXX's all run for $699.99 CAD around here. There is also an MSRP that most people have to folllow so the stores only have so much control.

[Jim A 4]

skate prices "doubling" over the past 10 years are nothing more than retailers finally charging MAP or MSRP on the items..

in 1996 a CCM 752 wholesaled for 270 and you paid maybe 299 for it..likely 275...it was a pure loss leader...same with helmets...now you wholesale a skate for 250 and it runs 350-399...

this has helped "save" many a LHS since their biggest % of sales dollars wasn't just cash keeping the business alive..but actually profit...

[beaucoup_fish 0]

The price of Bauers tops end skates have doubled since the Nike buy-out. Since the merger they've moved most of their production overseas. From 1997-99 the worlds 40 richest people (mostly american) accumulated an average of over $400 million in that time above their initial cost. The savings are not being passed onto the customer. The product's cost is not based purely on labour, but it is a large factor. Is the price in labour dropped from $10/hr to $.03/hr (estimates) in their moves out of Canada, then I doubt R & D all off a sudden popped out of nowhere and had incredible increases to offset the labour savings and encourage a doubling in price over 10 years.

Easton Synergy skates, and Vapor XXX's all run for $699.99 CAD around here. There is also an MSRP that most people have to folllow so the stores only have so much control.

Just how much savings do you want? Believe me, you are benefitting from cheap labour. These guys are in the business of making money, not giving you product on the cheap, and last I checked, whoever owns Bauer/Easton/THC was not on the list (not counting Phil Knight, b/c Nike's biggest business unit is apparel/shoes)...

Sure, these guys are far richer than you or I, but if you were in the same position, I somehow doubt you'd be selling your XXX for $250....and over the last ten years, I'd definitely say that money pumped into R&D has dramatically increased, and not just in the sporting goods industry...I'd venture that it took far more R&D money to make the Vapor XX than it did to make the Supreme 7000 of just a few years ago.

I'm pretty sure I saw Vapor XXXes for $599.99, though I could be wrong seeing as how I've been stuck on the other side of the world for four months...in any event, how many people do you think are buying $700 skates? And again, that's the final retail price, where the manufacturers make money is in selling to the retailer.

There are so many factors that you can blame rising prices on and labour cost isn't one of them, since it's not increasing. Materials, R&D, inflationary pressure, sure, but not labour.

[Jason Harris 31]

Eazy, I think the problem with the Nikes of the world is they have so many layers that add to the price. What I mean by that is they almost certainly can bring comparable products into North America at a far lower price than we can, but they can't necessarily sell it at a lower price, because they have so much more infrastructure: employees, buildings, R&D, travel, etc.

I don't think they are rolling in increased profits as much as they keeping thousands employeed, from Asia to Oregon.

[beaucoup_fish 0]

Eazy, I think the problem with the Nikes of the world is they have so many layers that add to the price. What I mean by that is they almost certainly can bring comparable products into North America at a far lower price than we can, but they can't necessarily sell it at a lower price, because they have so much more infrastructure: employees, buildings, R&D, travel, etc.

I don't think they are rolling in increased profits as much as they keeping thousands employeed, from Asia to Oregon.

Nike needs backward integration to shave costs! :lol:

[Eazy_b97 1]

There are so many factors that you can blame rising prices on and labour cost isn't one of them, since it's not increasing. Materials, R&D, inflationary pressure, sure, but not labour.

I'm not blaming rising prices on globalization, I am saying that I haven't seen the benefits of outsourcing yet and doubt that the other "processes" involved have overcome the savings in wages.

[beaucoup_fish 0]

There are so many factors that you can blame rising prices on and labour cost isn't one of them, since it's not increasing.  Materials, R&D, inflationary pressure, sure, but not labour.

I'm not blaming rising prices on globalization, I am saying that I haven't seen the benefits of outsourcing yet and doubt that the other "processes" involved have overcome the savings in wages.

What kind of benefits do you expect to see? The benefits are clear for the manufacturers - they save on labour costs. There's no benefit to you or I, except for savings at the retail end.

What "other processes" do you speak of? The other processes are unrelated to labour savings. You can't expect material costs to drop b/c it costs less to put them together...I'm probably misinterpreting what you mean, so you can let me know.

[Eazy_b97 1]

cap on prices or lowering of prices, that's what I expect to see when a product has been outsourced and Labour is cut dramatically. Bauer's first top of the line model after the nike buy-out was one of their best skates ever made. People are still searching for them on this very site. Prices have gone up since then and the product has gotten worse. I have alot of trouble believe that over the years they've dumped all of their extra savings into R&D, materials and such. When a large part of the cost is labour, and it is cut dramatically there should be savings passed on to the consumers.

The savings you are speaking of are based on your belief the company is using the money saved on labour to improve its product, and I don't believe they are.

[Jim A 4]

the wholesale for a NBH top of the line skate over the past 10 years has gone up what, $20-35 and going from the Bauer Supreme 2000/3000? to a Vapor XXX/8090 etc isn't too bad..its not like you are all of a sudden paying more for the same or less..

actually something like a Bauer 4000..the most similar skate in comparison..is now $150 -199 most places..so its cost has dropped by half...

[Eazy_b97 1]

So Bauer's skates have gone from $350 for the top of the line skates to $700 (in my area) because a shop has decided to? If the first top end product from the Nike era was better in most people's eyes than the current skates there is a problem.

[beaucoup_fish 0]

cap on prices or lowering of prices, that's what I expect to see when a product has been outsourced and Labour is cut dramatically. Bauer's first top of the line model after the nike buy-out was one of their best skates ever made. People are still searching for them on this very site. Prices have gone up since then and the product has gotten worse. I have alot of trouble believe that over the years they've dumped all of their extra savings into R&D, materials and such. When a large part of the cost is labour, and it is cut dramatically there should be savings passed on to the consumers.

The savings you are speaking of are based on your belief the company is using the money saved on labour to improve its product, and I don't believe they are.

Whoa, whoa, I never said that they were improving their product - I completely agree that most product has gone to shit over the last 5 years or so. I just said that they were saving on costs and at the retail level, you are as well to some extent. It may not seem like much, but paying someone say, $20/hr to make skates here vs. $0.13 in Thailand is a far cry. Imagine how much more it'd cost you, the end user, if your skates were continually made in North America.

R&D is out there to create new products such as the then innovative XX skate. Without R&D, you wouldn't have anything from the Vapor line today.

While in theory, it should also serve to make better products, it's not always the case. It depends on what you view as better too, but they obviously had to strip out the durability of the skate to get it to the lightest possible weight. Even so, product is not necessarily worse - you could argue that they've traded in durability for performance gains. Some people are happy with their XXs and some are not.

It's naive of you to believe that companies might actually lower the cost of a product from one year to the next or have your pocket in mind as they decide what to charge - deflation is very, very rare. Like I said, companies are there to make money, when the opportunity exists to make more and please the folks that own the company, well, you don't matter. It's unfortunate, but people are willing to pay for the stuff, so why not?

[Eazy_b97 1]

I just said that they were saving on costs and at the retail level, you are as well to some extent. It may not seem like much, but paying someone say, $20/hr to make skates here vs. $0.13 in Thailand is a far cry. Imagine how much more it'd cost you, the end user, if your skates were continually made in North America.

It's naive of you to believe that companies might actually lower the cost of a product from one year to the next or have your pocket in mind as they decide what to charge - deflation is very, very rare. Like I said, companies are there to make money, when the opportunity exists to make more and please the folks that own the company, well, you don't matter. It's unfortunate, but people are willing to pay for the stuff, so why not?

And I am saying it shouldn't be this way. Not just for BNH or any company. Since the move the prices have gone up, so there haven't been any apperant "savings".

[beaucoup_fish 0]

I just said that they were saving on costs and at the retail level, you are as well to some extent.  It may not seem like much, but paying someone say, $20/hr to make skates here vs. $0.13 in Thailand is a far cry.  Imagine how much more it'd cost you, the end user, if your skates were continually made in North America.

It's naive of you to believe that companies might actually lower the cost of a product from one year to the next or have your pocket in mind as they decide what to charge - deflation is very, very rare.  Like I said, companies are there to make money, when the opportunity exists to make more and please the folks that own the company, well, you don't matter.  It's unfortunate, but people are willing to pay for the stuff, so why not?

And I am saying it shouldn't be this way. Not just for BNH or any company. Since the move the prices have gone up, so there haven't been any apperant "savings".

Ahhh, a matter of perspective. Yes, you don't see prices dropping, but the savings are there - if they didn't use labour from overseas, your skates would cost you more than they already do...

I can totally feel that you want to see prices drop, I do too, but that's not going to happen any time soon...

[Eazy_b97 1]

How do you know prices would skyrocket? The first year they took over the prices went up, now in a year, their R&D and such improved enough to warrant an increase in price? This is what I don't buy.

If JimA is correct, and he very well may, my anger in this regard is directed in the wrong place, but my rant still applies to globalization in general!

[beaucoup_fish 0]

How do you know prices would skyrocket? The first year they took over the prices went up, now in a year, their R&D and such improved enough to warrant an increase in price? This is what I don't buy.

If JimA is correct, and he very well may, my anger in this regard is directed in the wrong place, but my rant still applies to globalization in general!

R&D doesn't improve, they just spend more money on it. A LOT MORE to make new products. It's not that things improve, things (other than labour) simply COST MORE MONEY. Labour, on the other hand has dropped, but if they continued to make their stuff in Canada, would COST MORE.

Your rant doesn't really apply to globalization - all you've said is that using foreign labour means you should have cheaper products, and in a way, though not necessarily obviously visible, you do.

I don't understand why all these people are jumping on globalization as the cause of all the worlds problems. Globalization is good for everyone in so many ways, but everyone jumps on it b/c it's the "IT" thing to bash. I think people need to learn to think for themselves...without globalization (unbeknownst to many casual observers, globalization is not simply an economic issue), you have no international travel, you have no exposure to other cultures, you have no foreign trade or positive relations. Who wants to be stuck in their own ethnocultural bubble?