Weightlifting

[Jason Harris 31]

I wanted to write this separately, since it's slightly different from the other topic. First, caps lock time:

I'VE NEVER SAID ONE SHOULD USE MACHINES ONLY. I'VE SAID ONE SHOULD TAKE THE BEST FROM ALL METHODS.

On a slight digression, and this is not an attack at anyone in particular, but one thing I've observed on this forum is a lot of guys have formed decisions on topics about which they have ZERO experience.

I don't need to try an OPS; they suck cuz I need to have feel.

T'Blades suck cuz I can just tell.

Machines suck cuz my buddy's friend is a bodybuilder and he says so.

Thornton sucks cuz he only won one playoff series.

Brand X sticks suck cuz my buddy broke two in a week.

Brand Y gloves suck. Brand Z skates suck.

You guys need to experiment on your own, so you can make informed opinions, instead of relying on your buddy's.

There's a guy I skate who went further in his career than the rest of us, but who's classic about this. Whenever I have something different -- Oggie Grip, T'Blades, wicking socks -- he'll ask me, "Who's using it in the NHL??"

I don't give a rat's ass what an NHLer is using -- I only care what works for me. What, I need to see an NHLer use an Oggie Grip before I can tell I like it myself?

[Okay, sermon over..... :lol: ]

[hitz14 0]

do you think that it would rip if i put one sand bag into another one to make it stronger?

Are you talking about the paper sandbag that you buy the stuff in at the store or a nylon/burlap type sandbag like they use to shore up levies and other flood zones??

If you are talking about the nylon/burlap style, they will not rip and you do not even have to tape them. Just be sure you get the one end tied correctly. If you are staying with the paper-type bag, you need to either tape it or put it into another bag.

Hope this helped.

ya im talking about the burlap bags used for flooding and stuff, thanks for the help and info.

[Kovy_Ribs_Fedo 3]

That's because player salaries are investments for clubs; if they don't feel a player will last through a season, they'll pass on that player.

Tell that to Detroit on Datsyuk's case when he arrived. Players did not even thought he was able to run.

And does it mean that if you work with free weights, you ain't going to add pounds and muscles.

And no way is the one with the bigger biceps who's gonna have the best shot, You are not shooting with your bicep, you are shooting with your forearms, wrist, core, chest, triceps. The bicep may help just a little bit, but not much.

Sorry for all those mistakes, I can't argue with someone who knows maybe as twice english words as I know. I know what you mean for some of your points, but there are some points that I think I'll never agree with you.

[ktang 34]

I'm definitely not an exercise expert, but:

Could it be that different body types will need different types of training? So, a mesomorph would use a certain type of program with a certain type of equipment, and an ectomorph would use something completely different.

[hitz14 0]

i just got some sand and put about 75 pounds in a bag and tried some of the exercises, i didnt do a full work out but the ones i tried felt pretty sweet. these workouts are going to be sick

[hitz14 0]

thanks for the help gman

[gman 0]

thanks for the help gman

:D

Happy to be of service

[Jason Harris 31]

That's because player salaries are investments for clubs; if they don't feel a player will last through a season, they'll pass on that player.

Sorry for all those mistakes, I can't argue with someone who knows maybe as twice english words as I know.

I understand that English is your second language -- that makes it all the more impressive that you interact on a forum like this. Heck, I don't even know any good swear words in other languages.... :D

Tell that to Detroit on Datsyuk's case when he arrived. Players did not even thought he was able to run.

I'm not sure if you're stating this as an example that teams will sign smaller players. You are correct that some teams will sign a Datsyuk or a Martin St. Louis, just as NBA teams will sign Michael Olowakandi because he's a seven-footer.

But Bill Belichick likes his running backs to be over 230 pounds. And most teams get scared off by smaller players, regardless how dazzlingly talented they are.

And does it mean that if you work with free weights, you ain't going to add pounds and muscles.

Once again, I never said to use machines only. I said you will get better and quicker results with a program that utilizes both (or even other) methods.

And no way is the one with the bigger biceps who's gonna have the best shot, You are not shooting with your bicep, you are shooting with your forearms, wrist, core, chest, triceps. The bicep may help just a little bit, but not much.

I believe there is a coiling/uncoiling of the arms, including the biceps, during the act of shooting, but perhaps a kinesiologist would tell me otherwise. If I'm correct, then the man with stronger biceps would have a harder shot.

I know what you mean for some of your points, but there are some points that I think I'll never agree with you.

Hey, it's okay to agree to disagree. Forums are great when people can keep their arguments from getting personal; that way we all walk away with a little more knowledge, while no feels slighted.

Beyond that, however, I wouldn't argue so passionately about something unless I thought it would help you. Of course, we'll never know unless you experiment..... :D

By the way, I've thought of one machine that I know a lot of hockey players use, and which basically doesn't have a free weight equivalent -- the adductor machine. I've known players who've used it to strengthen and stretch their groin area. Just an example of taking the best from all choices.

[gman 0]

I'm definitely not an exercise expert, but:

Could it be that different body types will need different types of training? So, a mesomorph would use a certain type of program with a certain type of equipment, and an ectomorph would use something completely different.

I really would not think so. The difference would be how much each type would be able to lift and how much muscle mass each put on. In the end we have the same body design and the same basic needs for movement. One type would be able to excell at one type of exercise (ie: power lifting versus marathon running), while another will excell at the other in competition.

[Jason Harris 31]

Could it be that different body types will need different types of training? So, a mesomorph would use a certain type of program with a certain type of equipment, and an ectomorph would use something completely different.

Maybe to a little extent, although it's probably more due to the level of fitness of an individual, rather than his somatype. When I was a trainer in another life, we told the women that they couldn't become as muscular as the men, since they didn't have as much testosterone, but we still had them perform the same exercises.

[Kovy_Ribs_Fedo 3]

By the way, I've thought of one machine that I know a lot of hockey players use, and which basically doesn't have a free weight equivalent -- the adductor machine. I've known players who've used it to strengthen and stretch their groin area. Just an example of taking the best from all choices.

Yeah this machine is good for adductor.

I'm doing it with elastics as it would be stupid to have an adductor machine in the house and I can do a lot of exercices with elastics.

[Jason Harris 31]

Well, you're just going to have to go pro, so you can afford a larger house.....

[ddibrano77 0]

Stay away from machines. You are an athlete, not a body builder. Do squats with a bar and a rack. If you have no rack, clean the weight and do front squats. Do sandbag clean and presses for everything else in your body.

Buy an old duffle bag and fill it with sand. Pick it up off the ground and press it overhead. Drop on the ground and repeat. When it is easy, add sand. Or, add one handfull of sand a day or per workout. This will work hands, wrists, forearms, biceps, triceps, pecs, traps, lats, and deltoids. Also erector spinae muscles, obliques, deep abs, butt, hamstrings, quads and also your calves when you lose you balance and have to catch yourself. Did I leave anything out? It also looks pretty cool in a very hardcore sort of way. If you do not have sand or are worried about getting sand on the floor, use rocks. Rocks are cheap and are even more hardcore in a very oldschool sort of way.

If you are REALLY tough, you can do full front squats with the sandbag on your front delts/collarbones.....

In the real world you are not going to have to pick up something that has a 1.2875" knurlled chrome handle. Train for functional strength and everything else will improve.

you are way off when you say machines are for bodybuilders and he should only do freeweigh squats. I was a personal trainer and I had all my clients on every aparatus in the gym because machines and free weights work your body in different ways. Free weight are beneficial for many reasons just as machines are beneficial for many reasons. Machines can help you if you have a weak spot in your repititions say a sticking point on chest presses or bicep curls. Also if someone works out by themselves they can hop on a machine and push to failure (which is the only way to stimulate your muscle and break it down to have it rebuild and become bigger). I had many of hockey friends i trained to hop on machines and work their muscles so that they get more of a peak contraction to optimize the muscle response.

More or less everything in the gym can be used for the benefit of what is going to be accomplished. Watch the reality show "making the cut" there is a sequence in there where they are working on balance and are standing on a stability ball (or bosu ball cant remember that well) and the guy on the ball is being pushed at different angles to work on his balance and obviously the different ways you can be bumped or pushed on playing.

I do have to say that yes SQUATS are your best friend, it is by far the best workout for ones body because it works just about every muscle. Just make sure to perform them with perfect form cause i have seen to many people do them with bad form and blow their knees out. One rule of thumb when doing squats or other leg pressing (even lunges) exercises is Your toes should always be in front of your knees!!!!! I cant stress this enough and still people get it wrong, when you hop on the leg press look at your foot placement and make sure that your toes are way in front of your knees becuase you push with your heels (not the balls of your feet) and if you toes are behind your knees you put all the strain on your knees (ligaments) and that is how guys blow their MCL and ACL.

Hope this helps any of you....

[gman 0]

When I was a personal trainer I did exaclty what the club told me to do with exaclty what was available at the club. Most people who need or want professional trainer are much more inclined to pay the $60 per hour or whatever to use a nice cushy machine rather than do barbell squats and deadlifts. I have yet to see a club anywhere that will allow a sandbag. Most places do not even allow lifting chalk.

[ddibrano77 0]

i agree with the bag or chalk but what place do they have in a gym? You are there to lift weights and use what they have, your not in your garage and have to use whatever you can to get a work out. If your looking to improve your game as far as skating a person should go to the gym with a work out that will hit the major areas used when skating. We all know what they are as your butt being one of the sole movers in skating it would make sense to do Squats (bar, or machine they both hit the same muscle doesnt matter), Lunges (bar, dumbbell, machine its all the same what ever you prefer to do and works for you personally), leg curls, and i would even say do calf raises to build your calves up as they aid in overall balance on the ice. Then if you need uppper body strength you can then build them in, also from the earlier thread about doing bicep curls to get a hard shot....not entirely true. If you ever see Nick Lidstrom he is a smaller guy from what it looks like on the ice and we all know what kind of shot he has. The same goes for quite a few of them, Datsyuk is not a huge bodybuilder he has an athletic frame. But that is not the point when shooting its all about technique and dynamics of your shot...i played with a guy who had an NHL slapshot and was super thin. I think people get confused with having to have lots of muscle to shoot hard or hit hard or skate fast its all technique and working on that technique will only improve your performance. Lifting weights gets you into shape so you can play harder, longer and possibly at a higher level.

By the way you dont have to pay that much to get personal training i charged that much but i worked at a big corporate gym, i have several friends in the industry that charge way less. And you dont have to go forever get a 2 -3 week training session and see what they say because most of them will give you the knowledge to continue on. If you are honestly were a trainer how could you sit there and say that a machine does nothing? I can say that i could put together a day of machine for lifting that would blow out a day working out with free weights, they all work the same muscles there is no secret on how they work. One is a fixed motion (unless you use FREE MOTION) and the other is not.

And even personal trainers have personal trainers...

[gman 0]

If you are honestly were a trainer how could you sit there and say that a machine does nothing?

I was honestly are too were a pesonal trainer...

I did not say machines do nothing. If you read any of the previous nine pages of posting, you would see that I simply stated that freeweights, or basically anything that is not a machine, are better for a moving athlete than a machine.

I'll stick with this premise and you can stick with yours. That is just fine. We can agree to disagree.

Just like bottom end orifices, everyone has opinions, and unless they are your own, they all stink.

[Jason Harris 31]

also from the earlier thread about doing bicep curls to get a hard shot....not entirely true. If you ever see Nick Lidstrom he is a smaller guy from what it looks like on the ice and we all know what kind of shot he has. The same goes for quite a few of them, Datsyuk is not a huge bodybuilder he has an athletic frame. But that is not the point when shooting its all about technique and dynamics of your shot...i played with a guy who had an NHL slapshot and was super thin. I think people get confused with having to have lots of muscle to shoot hard or hit hard or skate fast its all technique and working on that technique will only improve your performance.

I believe we're saying similar things, but you may have misunderstood my earlier post regarding biceps. I completely agree that hockey is all about technique -- I don't have a great shot, but I'm a decent-sized guy.

What I was implying was the same hockey player, with the same technique, would develop a stronger shot with stronger muscles.

[ddibrano77 0]

very true and i agree with you i guess i was skimming through the post too fast and seen something about biceps and hard shots. My basic point was that you can be fat, skinny, in shape, out of shape however; if you have great technique and great dynamics your shot will be good none the less. Younger people or just someone who easily influenced by say magazines, will think they have to go to the gym and pound the weights to get big biceps for a great shot. Its just funny to me what influences people, and its with everything not just hockey.

[gman 0]

My basic point was that you can be fat, skinny, in shape, out of shape however; if you have great technique and great dynamics your shot will be good none the less.

Younger people or just someone who easily influenced by say magazines, will think they have to go to the gym and pound the weights to get big biceps for a great shot.

Its just funny to me what influences people, and its with everything not just hockey.

Very true on all 3!!!!

[hapamatt122 0]

very true and i agree with you i guess i was skimming through the post too fast and seen something about biceps and hard shots. My basic point was that you can be fat, skinny, in shape, out of shape however; if you have great technique and great dynamics your shot will be good none the less. Younger people or just someone who easily influenced by say magazines, will think they have to go to the gym and pound the weights to get big biceps for a great shot. Its just funny to me what influences people, and its with everything not just hockey.

yeah, on one of my adult teams, we have a fat guy that sits back on defense and he can send a rocket from the blueline that is way harder shot than anyone else on the team.. yet he looks like he's been eating cookies and pizza all his life. its all technique. now he might want to be in shape because he'll get burned a lot on the breakout by some speedy opposing forwards, but at least he has a good shot so I can feed him the puck for a wicked one timer.

now for another question.. have any of you ever played any other competitive sport besides hockey? perhaps football (american football), a lot of workouts are very basic, you would do squats and maybe a couple variations (front/back), bench (incline/flat), I think a lot of explosive power comes from cleans, they work the whole body.. I know its hard to do that kind of stuff at a regular gym (I've never seen someone do cleans in a 24hr fitness or anything, but you kids that have access to your school gyms should have no problem with getting someone to show you how to do it. as far as arms, you will work out your forearms in most typical bicep/trycep exercises, which you should not ignore, I'm not saying you should work out to get some massive 18" pythons, but you don't want to neglect your arms as a muscle group.

[Kovy_Ribs_Fedo 3]

I'll tell you something, if some fat ass got a good shot, one day or another he did work on his shooting technique. You can't just be born with a good technique, you have to perfect it.

[gavin 0]

Fat slow guys tend to have a decent shot without working at it. I dunno why but it makes me mad, cause I couldn't get fat and slow not matter how much I ate. I've tried. JK!

[ddibrano77 0]

i know that lifetime fitness has a Hammer Strength maching that is for cleans, i wouldnt suggest doing them cause they are very injury prone. I would recommend going to a "boot camp" class or some other type of plyometrics training. This will give you the explosive power you need and also tone your entire body. I used to be a trainer at Lifetime in Shebly Twp, MI and we had quite a few professional hockey players who came in and lifted, also had some professional refs come in. You would be amazed at how hard the refs lifted and what their programs consisted of. One guy I remember that I had been in a spinning class with was always doing plyo's, running, stair climber (the one with real stairs that rotate), spinning, and functional weight training.

As far as the overweight guy who has the ridiculous shot it is funny becuase most of them do have great technique and a lot of weight to put behind that shot. I knew a guy who played defense on my dads team a few years back (he was about 6'7" on skates) and played defense...seriously get out of the way when he shoots. He never took a slap shot just wrist shots, he blew a guys ankle up after they guy got in front of his wrist shot...thats power! I have also see guys split goalies helmets in half with their slapshots which doesnt even really relate to how big or strong they were. They just knew how to shoot extremely well.

[hapamatt122 0]

Is plyometrics a class? or a style.. all I know is that it has something to do with jumping right?

[ddibrano77 0]

plyometrics is basically the science of building the "fast twitch or type 2 muscle fibers". You regulary see running backs in football concetrating on plyo's becuase they need the explosiveness in their game to blow past someone or juke around guys. Same thing for hockey most pro, junior and college programs have players doing a lot of off ice conditioning with plyometrics, at least that is what i taught at the hockey schools i ran (along with the boot camp class at lifetime i instructed). Plyometrics is basically all body weight movements with minimal weight resistance like maybe some resistance bands. They can be in a class like the Boot Camp style or you can do research on the internet and come up with training tips for doing plyometrics. They boil down to movements like doing box jumps, continous hoping over a certain distance, sprints, karaokes, resistance band squats till failure, frog hops, My all time favorite and what the russian hockey team does are "russian land drills" they are killer. Those are a small taste of what you can do for plyo's if you are really interested we can figure out a way to possibly get you some exercises for what you might be looking to do.