Weightlifting

[gman 0]

Triceps exist for the sole purpose of pushing your wrist away from your shoulder. THat is the way they are designed and the way they work. Deltoids are more complicated. The best exercise, in my very humble opinion, for deltoids and good also for the triceps is the overhead or military press. You can press from infront of your chin or behind your neck. I had more success with the front side. It also seems a little more realistic. How many times in life do you have to press something at that sever of an angle. I strongly recommend you always do this standing. Why would you wnat to train your arms and shoulders to lift a load that your back and trunk cannot handle?? That is what happens when you sit.

For triceps, if you want to overdevelop them, do as many different types of extension moves as you can think of. Lying on your back on a BENCH (see I said the word) with a curl bar and drop it down towards the floor. Get a good stretch but not too much and then press it away from you. Some guys take their thumb knuckles to their forehead and then press out. Some guys take the bar behind the head and towards the floor like I described above. Some guys use close grips and some use wider grip. Find what works and what hurts. Use what works and discard what hurts. ALso mix it up. Your body will adapt and you really do not want that. You wnat to keep it guessing so it will keep responding by "laying down" new muscle.

As boring as puchups are, they are awesome exercises. If you get bored after a hundred pushups, switch to one arm pushups. When you can crank out a hundred of those you are making some serious headway. Pushups also work your back, all of your trunk muscles, and your hip stabilizers.

[Edge 0]

gman, i dont really feel it affects my performance, but i just don't want to risk that. Now in the off season.....there really isn't one ;)

[gman 0]

Edge,

I understand your situation. Do what you can and play as hard as you can. If you are young, count your blessings that you cn play all year long and not get hurt or burnt out. I recommend bodyweight calisthenics highly for someone in your situation. They are still better than machines as they allow stimulation of the proprioceptors by keeping your balance. That causes more tussue growth and puts the minimum stress on your joints and bone growth plates.

Good luck

[chippa13 1844]

gman, i dont really feel it affects my performance, but i just don't want to risk that. Now in the off season.....there really isn't one ;)

Its tough to start a new regimen without any real off-season. The fact is, after a couple of weeks, you won't really have the stiffness/soreness issues as you will be used to the workouts, as long as you don't try to increase the weight too fast. If you can find a couple weeks where your hockey load isn't too heavy, you may want to start then. Once you've been working out for a while, you will find it actually gives you more energy than when you weren't doing anything.

Most pros usually get off ice workouts done after games before a non-game day as it gives the muscles a day to recover before the game day. You may want to try some schedule like that, where you workout the day before an off day so your on-ice performance isn't adversely effected.

[Langenbrunner15 0]

For an athlete, the bench press is the court jester

Is that line from the song American Pie by Don Mclean?

[gman 0]

Good post Chippa, toatally agree.

Thanks Langenbrunner, that was great :lol:

[Jason Harris 31]

qman, as one who also was a certified Nautilus trainer earlier in his career, I disagree with some of your conclusions.

The training goal of any athlete is increased speed, strength, stamina, flexibility and, for some athletes, size. The question is whether some forms of exercise are better than others, or would a mixture of different routines be better? Given each method has some advantages that are exclusive, I’m going back to my original contention that a mixture of machines and free weights is better.

One assumption we must make in comparing the methods is that proper form will be used. That obviously is not the case for perhaps 80% of the people in gyms, usually because they are more concerned with how much weight they are lifting versus the form they are using, but it’s the only way we can compare the benefits. Thus, if we assume a machine is properly designed – I readily agree that Nautilus is the best – and proper form is used, there is no exercise that provides greater range of motion than machines.

Outside of performing the movement in a sport, no other form of exercise stresses the muscle from fully flexed to fully contracted. Free weights are limited in this because their resistance is caused purely by gravity, which is obviously linear from the ground, whereas all our movements are rotational around joints. However, one valid point you raise is machines do such a great job of isolating, that smaller supporting muscles are not called into play anywhere near as much as they are compared to using free weights.

And therein lies the benefit of free weights. My muscles burn far more when I use machines, but my body is much more fatigued after a free weight workout. Supporting muscles are called into play when we have to concentrate on balance. (By the way, I think this leads to increased bulk equally as much as the isolation track of a machine.)

So one could see how combining these two methods would be beneficial. On their own, machines would lead to stronger muscles over their entire ROM. On their own, free weights would have pockets in the ROM that they can’t address, but they would definitely strengthen auxiliary muscles better.

I’m going to address whether increased muscularity is beneficial to an athlete in the next post, since I think it’s a different topic.

[Jason Harris 31]

All things being equal, an athlete who has become a stronger version of himself has become a faster version of himself. By all things being equal, I’m referring to same level of fatness, same level of flexibility, same level of nutrition, etc. (I would agree the possibility exists an athlete could become so bulky as to limit movement, but 99% of us don’t have to worry about that happening due to natural causes.)

A stronger athlete is a faster athlete. Look at Olympic sprinters – they’re muscular. And based on articles I’ve read over the years, they heavily perform one exercise you referred to as the court jester. I understood what you meant by that, but the pectorals are sprinting muscles. Many Olympic sprinters can bench press in the 300’s, and hockey players would also benefit from having strong chest muscles – at least those of us who can get ourselves to stop holding onto the stick with both hands. :D

One school of thought that I agree with is Exercise Is Exercise and Sports Are Sports. Exercise the body to increase the overall level of strength and fitness, then play the sport to increase the overall level of skill. I think the only possible argument one could raise against certain exercises is increased muscularity leads to decreased flexibility, but there are 280 pound men in the NFL who are more flexible than most of us.

This now brings us back to our question of what method(s) of exercise would lead to the greatest overall level of strength and fitness? I say a combination.

[gman 0]

SalmingUSA, excellent points. You are bringing up alot of things from my past in terms of way of thinking. I am going to write as I think and think as I write. I will probably think of more stuff later and have to add in. THat is what makes all this fun.

I can see your point for Nautilus working a specific muscle better than freeweights or sandbags. For someone rehabilitating an injury, or for working on a specific weak spot, this is a good thing. Do you remember the splash Casy Viator made when he made the switch to Nautilus for his bodybuilding? I cannot remember exactly why he fizzled, but he really turned some heads.

My problem with the Nautilus is that they do work each specific muscle to death. For a bodybuilder who wants to look like a college dissection manual, that is great. But for a moving athlete, moving exercises are more beneficial. I remember being indoctrinated, and I use that term warmly and not disparagingly, that you should work the body to get stronger and then work the sport to work the skill.

That is still okay. That is why we do squats, power cleans, overhead squats, and clean and presses. There were many good aspects of the Nautilus program. One was the idea of a short but intense workout. I liked that then, and like it now. However I think that eight machines of 8-12 reps in 20 minutes was a little idealistic.

I grew up in Wyoming. The strongest guys pound for pound that I have ever met to this day are cowboys and ranchhands. Guys who wrangle horses, work fencelines and throw hay. When you are talking muscle density and percentage of available fibers for recruitment, you simply cannot top these athletes. Their whole day is comprised of multi joint full body activity. I simply cannot look at a double bicep machine coupled with a tricep extension machine following a compound chest machine and think that they give the same workout as a day of doing real life work. Since most of us do not have access to hay bales, I still suggest sandbags, overhead squats, back squats and deadlifts. The efficiency aspect may come into question here. A day of anything is going to have a good effect. But twenty minutes on a sandbag or a squat rack, I still think, will have better effect for an athlete than 20 minutes on a machine.

It seemed like part of the discussion was on how to most efficiently work the most of our body. Compound exercises are vastly superior to isolating exercises. The Nautilus compound leg was one of my favorites. But it did nothing for me compared to squats. The only real compound machines in the Nautilus aresonal were/are the super-pullover and the leg press. All the others were single joint isolation machines. I am not putting down the scientific excellence of Darden and his machines. He put a tremendous amount of time and money into testing exactly how each muscle contracted. He then designed his cams around each individual muscle. THat is why he is a very rich man.

Your note on bulking up brings up an interesting point. To build the most definable and identifiable (dissection manual-esque) muscle, then machines and specifically Nautilus would have to be the best. All those pesky supporting muscles do take up room under the skin. Your points on speed and sprinting are spot on. World class sprinters are tremendously strong. Up until very recently, though, the court jester was the only "benchmark" of upper body strength. :D

Now, I am fairly sure, there is a movement towards Olympic style lifting in the sprinting training camps. I could very well be wrong, I have been many times today already. They are doing plyometrics, one legged step squats, cleans and overhead press. They also do alot of dumbell work versus barbell on the chest exercises.

Please let me know what I left out. I am very much enjoying this discussion.

gman

[hockechamp14 0]

Here's an article by clint steele who runs better hockey:

http://www.kwikhands.com/bhtmmachinevsfree.htm

[Adam91 0]

What do you guys do solely for wrist excersises?

[hockechamp14 0]

What do you guys do solely for wrist excersises?

I stickhandle with a weighted stick or shoot weighted pucks. Once in a while I'll strap a 25 plate onto the end of my stick and swing it back and fourth over my head and then on the ground and then stickhandle. It was sweet for my blade speed of my wristers and stuff.

[gman 0]

Wrist exercises:

Grab the end of your stick with one hand. Hold it out in front of you parallel to the ground. Now write the alphabet in cursive in the air. Do this with the back of your hand up, the palm of your hand up and your palm facing the opposit side of your body. Do tis with both hands. ANother thing is to write figure eights in the air. Make the first one so that the top and bottom of the eight are at 12 and 6 on the clock face. THen the next one at 1 and 7, then the next one at 2 and 8 and so on. You can do these also with palm down, palm up, and palm facing in.

One of the best exercises for total lower arm strength is chopping wood. If you are lucky enough to need five or six cords of hardwood chopped each year, that's great. Otherwise you can get a car or truck tire from the local tire store or junk yard. Find a sledgehammer and beat the tire into dust, This will also work your shoulders, back, biceps and things you never considered.

If you want specific hand strengthening stuff and want to go to the FREAKY end of the hand strength spectrum, there is a fellow named John Brookfield who is a professional strongman. He does not look like much, but his hands and lower arms are FREAKY strong. He has written a few books, and has posted training tips on www.ironmind.com .

http://www.ironmind.com/ironcms/export/Iro...shedtodust.html

THis is to the grip and hand strength/health page. Look to the right and bottom for the full list of articles.

http://www.ironmind.com/ironcms/export/Iro...ps/griptip.html

This is the first of the list for his online articles.

Poke around on this site and you will get tons of info for hand strength. The great thing about Brookfield's stuff is that you can do most of it without spending too much money. Good luck

[Jason Harris 31]

gman, I'll get you a response later this weekend... :D

[Adam91 0]

What do you guys do solely for wrist excersises?

I stickhandle with a weighted stick or shoot weighted pucks. Once in a while I'll strap a 25 plate onto the end of my stick and swing it back and fourth over my head and then on the ground and then stickhandle. It was sweet for my blade speed of my wristers and stuff.

How do you actually get the weight onto your stick?

[gman 0]

Here's an article by clint steele who runs better hockey:

http://www.kwikhands.com/bhtmmachinevsfree.htm

Thanks hockechamp for the link. That is very interesting. Also pretty much along the lines I follow.

[gman 0]

Here is another article from the betterhockey site. Thanks for turning me onto this site hockechamp.

http://www.betterhockey.com/articlesitem_p...spx?news_id=736

[hitz14 0]

which one of those wrist exercises are the best?

[gman 0]

which one of those wrist exercises are the best?

Which of which? If you mean the alphabet in the air or the figure eights, do them both. The point is to put resistance, in this case in the form of weight and leverage from the length and mass of your stick, against the muscles and tendons of the lower arm and hand. You do not want to dive into heavy hand work too soon as the hand and wrist muscles are very small and take time to adapt.

If you are referring to the various exercises on the Brookfield site, they are all good. There is really no one single be all, end all for hand and wrist exercise. The more different things you do, the more well rounded and less burnt out and less prone to injury will be.

[hurricane 0]

Free weights...no questions asked!

[tuzzifan44 0]

Free weights are a solid foundation, but you'll eventually need more.

[hurricane 0]

Free weights are a solid foundation, but you'll eventually need more.

Free weights,cross training, core training and Cardio is all you need. Done right and that will take your game to the next level. In midgets I Trained in these four areas and by the time I hit juniors I was ready to go. And In juniors we did'nt do any Fancy BS....Just took it to the max every workout. Keep it Basic. :P

[Jason Harris 31]

Okay, I finally jerry-rigged one of my computers after a power outage blew out the main one....

You are correct, gman, that farmboys tend to be incredibly strong for their size but, at the same time, they are Exhibit A why we need free weights, machines, sandbags, etc. Most of us just don't have the time. A middle manager may be lucky enough to earn a nice salary for the family, but he's unfortunate to have a lifestyle that is not conducive to good health. Consequently, he needs to find a way to fit in an efficient exercise program. Even many of the kids on MSH struggle to find time between school, homework and sports. Heck, my daughters get on the bus at 8:10 and get off at 4:25!

My problem with Clint Steele's and Mike Boyle's solutions is they've substituted one limitation -- lack of auxilary muscles -- for a bigger limitation -- lack of full range. (By the way, I've been on newer machines by Nautilus, Polaris and I believe BodyMaster that allow some slack in the movement, so one feels the auxilary muscles called into play.) The bottom line is, by their nature, there are very few free weight movements that are full range or variable in resistance to adequately strengthen the muscle over its entire range. Unlike Mike Boyle, I'm convinced that having "lopsided" muscles leads to more injuries.

Let's take two exercises: the squat and curls. I've said a number of times on MSH, that if there was one exercise to do, that's the one. I do it three times a week. But if my gym had the Nautilus duo squat, that's the one I'd be doing twice a week, because it's full range versus the squat which goes from about 30% to about 95% of the range. One can make it go to 100% by squeezing his glutes, but nobody has the strength to go below 30% with the same weight that properly stresses the upper range.

And that obviously is why a variable cam was created -- to allow the lifter to use the "same" weight over the entire movement. I know you understand this, gman, but I'm going to explain it for the younger guys. Let say I handed you X pounds and ask you to hold it for five seconds with your arms parellel to the ground. We'll say it's 100 pounds and you can do it. Now I test whether you can hold the weight 15 degrees lower, above your thighs, for another five seconds. You won't be able to do it. Maybe you need 83 pounds to be able to hold it. Now I ask you to go 15 degrees about parellel to the ground. Maybe now you could handle 108 pounds.

Of course, your free weight can't change, so you're either going to choose 108 pounds and cheat throughout the lower portion of the movement -- thus making parts of the muscle much weaker and, I believe, more susceptible to injury -- or you're going to choose 85 pounds and never become as strong as you could be. One could argue that you're in better "alignment" for your strength curve, so less likely to get injured, but I think most athletes are more likely to go for the higher weight and become even more out of alignment -- strong at their peak, but much weaker at the starting position. Nautilus, particularly, came up with a variable cam that effectively alters the weight along the movement to coincide with your weak and strong points, so your entire muscle is becoming stronger and, I believe, less suceptible to injuries.

There's also a different concept that the curl illustrates well. A five pound weight is five pounds because a piece of metal that size weighs five pounds when gravity pushes on it, while a piece of metal twice as big weighs ten pounds due to gravity. Its resistance is always ten pounds straight down to the ground, regardless where you are in the arc. If you are at the beginning, the weight is stressing your fingers because it's pushing toward the ground; if you're in the middle it's stressing your biceps quite well, because it's pushing toward the ground; if you are at the top of the movement, it's back to stressing your fingers while allowing your biceps to rest, because gravity is pushing all that weight straight down toward the ground and your shoulders.

So how do properly designed machines improve on this limitation? They always make the resistance perpendicular to your wrists. The purpose of the biceps is to rotate the forearm, so the resistance needs to move throughout the movement to constantly be perpendicular to your wrists. At the end of the Nautilus bicep curl, instead of the resistance heading toward your shoulder and allowing your biceps to relax, it's actually heading toward the ceiling and your biceps have to work to keep it there.

Again, by their nature, free weight movements can NEVER replicate this. However, going back to the beginning, they do add some benefits, mainly variety and the "calling in" of auxilary muscles. To limit yourself to just free weights or just machines is to do just that....limit yourself.

[Kovy_Ribs_Fedo 3]

Why would free weight be bad if you do the perfect technique? I mean, do it with less weight if you can't do the right technique, go from there and lifts heavier weights when you're stronger. There are so many ways of thinking on weighlifting, maybe you're right...

[gman 0]

Great post salming,

You aer absolutely correct in your assertions and your description of the Nautilus cam system and why it works. But again, your illustrations are for single joint isolation exercises. I agree entirely that the Nautilus double bicep is better for isolating the bicep than freeweight curls. And for a bodybuilder or an older desk jockey ;) , or someone rehabbing a bicep tendon rupture, that is great. But for an athlete, why would we do that??

Part of what needs to be emphasized is that the whole body works together at all times. To work your hamstrings, don't lie on your stomach or on your side and kick your heels to your butt. Rather learn proper form and do SLDL's RDL's or even deep squats. Regarding the weight limit on squats, I had a huge hold at the bottom of my squat. SO I picked a light weight and did 10 sets of ten reps with it all the way down. "Ass to the Grass". I ws only able to do that once or maybe twice a week due to soreness. In about two months my 100rep weight was more than my half squat weight when I started.

There is no machine that can duplicate the total body stimulation that freeweight squats and heavy deadlifts can. No machine can stimulate the affect and feel of a good snatch ;) ;) .

If some of the machine companies are coming around to simulate more closely the feel of freeweights, then that is great and I think they are on the right track. Until they get it totally mirrored, though, I still think that for a moving athlete, freeweights are the best. If one wants to oeverdevelope the arms, then isolation exercises are the best way to go. If one wants to develope explosiveness, speed, balance, and totall body strength, then cleans, squats, sandbag lifts, barrel and keg lifts are still the way to go.

One machine from the Nautilus line that I still love, and would own if I could find one, is the super pullover. Man that just rocked!!!!! The last club I worked at in the late 80's had a new forearm machine. Have you seen that? It had two handles that could work all four or five ROM's for the forearm. If they have developed a little since then, that could be an effective machine as well. SOme muscles and groups respond well to isolation. But most are better working the way thery were designed, and that is with all the rest of the muscles in the body...