World War III

[kosydar 0]

What about the Asian Tigers? Those countries are exploited far less than the smaller, less developed nations...

Thats what I meant, but I was unclear. It isn't like China is the only Asian economy that is steadily doing well.

My basic argument is that if need be, the US could find another trading partner, and within a decade or two things would be close to "normal". I don't think you can say the same for China.

[beaucoup_fish 0]

What about the Asian Tigers?  Those countries are exploited far less than the smaller, less developed nations...

Thats what I meant, but I was unclear. It isn't like China is the only Asian economy that is steadily doing well.

My basic argument is that if need be, the US could find another trading partner, and within a decade or two things would be close to "normal". I don't think you can say the same for China.

I thought the consensus among most economists was that in a few years time, China will be the world's largest economy - it's pretty undeniable now even that China wields a considerable amount of clout on the world economic stage.

And if the U.S. lost China as a trading partner, I don't think things would be particularly hunky dory, even given a few decades of recovery - I think you overestimate the strength and influence of the US economy's underpinnings.

[pat19 0]

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

-Albert Einstein

[kosydar 0]

What about the Asian Tigers?  Those countries are exploited far less than the smaller, less developed nations...

Thats what I meant, but I was unclear. It isn't like China is the only Asian economy that is steadily doing well.

My basic argument is that if need be, the US could find another trading partner, and within a decade or two things would be close to "normal". I don't think you can say the same for China.

I thought the consensus among most economists was that in a few years time, China will be the world's largest economy - it's pretty undeniable now even that China wields a considerable amount of clout on the world economic stage.

And if the U.S. lost China as a trading partner, I don't think things would be particularly hunky dory, even given a few decades of recovery - I think you overestimate the strength and influence of the US economy's underpinnings.

Like I said, I study political science and not economics so I don't have a great deal of knowledge in the subject. I might be overvaluing the power of the US. But I just think that it'd be much easier for the US to replace China with any of the other countries (India being the first that comes to mind) that will produce cheap labor and manufactured goods than it would be for China to replace the US and its buying power. The only exception I could see with that would be the EU, but I know very little of their buying patterns and imports. Then again none of this would be easy at all.

[beaucoup_fish 0]

What about the Asian Tigers?  Those countries are exploited far less than the smaller, less developed nations...

Thats what I meant, but I was unclear. It isn't like China is the only Asian economy that is steadily doing well.

My basic argument is that if need be, the US could find another trading partner, and within a decade or two things would be close to "normal". I don't think you can say the same for China.

I thought the consensus among most economists was that in a few years time, China will be the world's largest economy - it's pretty undeniable now even that China wields a considerable amount of clout on the world economic stage.

And if the U.S. lost China as a trading partner, I don't think things would be particularly hunky dory, even given a few decades of recovery - I think you overestimate the strength and influence of the US economy's underpinnings.

Like I said, I study political science and not economics so I don't have a great deal of knowledge in the subject. I might be overvaluing the power of the US. But I just think that it'd be much easier for the US to replace China with any of the other countries (India being the first that comes to mind) that will produce cheap labor and manufactured goods than it would be for China to replace the US and its buying power. The only exception I could see with that would be the EU, but I know very little of their buying patterns and imports. Then again none of this would be easy at all.

I like that you are well spoken and can actually argue worth a salt.

The U.S. buying power certainly is a significant part of China's export business, but the one thing that I think you're missing is that the US now wants a piece of the Chinese public's buying power. Now, many US marketers are a little off base with this, as they think of China as a market with 1.3 billion consumers. The reality is that a large portion of this 1.3 billion (I don't know how many) is actually made up of rural citizens who do not command a large chunk of spending power. The concentration is in the metropolitan areas and it is these citizens whose increasing wealth and disposable income that everyone else wants a piece of.

Nonetheless, I agree to disagree, and I respect your opinion and well forumlated rebuttals.

[Edge 0]

As a kid that knows jack shit about politics and who is who in the world economically and militarily...North Korea scares me more than any other country. TBH, I didn't even know China was a threat any more.

[jrhky36 1]

a few things.

1. when n.korea lite off the misslses awhile back ALL OF ASIA was crying foul, even china. i don't think that china will side with n. korea in a war, unlike the korean conflict of the 1950's. china has too much to lose if they fight along side n. korea. because it could destroy the econmic realtionships it has forged with the west and asia.

2. lets not forget that iran and syria ARE providing weapons to hezbolla. no peace is going to happen until iran and syria stop proving weapons. isreal is targeting hezbolla yet as with any war collatrole damage occurs. i trully feel for all the innocent victims in this "war". it is very diffucult to target terrorists, because they use hit and run tatics. the musad(isreali cia) is doing the best that they can right now. part of all this is isreal is sick and tired of being picked on by terrorists. when i was in hafia many years ago we were told not to use public trans because just weeks before a bus blew up. waht this all comes down to is a holy war between the jewish people of isreal and the muslims who hate isreal.

some facts about isreal:

military: conscripted service(2 yr min) reservist for life.

jewish state surrounded by muslim states.

*disclaimer: i will not reflect my veiws on the last fact only what is written and were as to avoid many conflicts tha could arise from my belifes.*

this was all written about in the book of revelations. that one day many nations will rise up against isreal.

[toroytorero 0]

china won't mess with the 800lb gorilla .. why bite the hand that feeds you

[kosydar 0]

2. lets not forget that iran and syria ARE providing weapons to hezbolla. no peace is going to happen until iran and syria stop proving weapons. isreal is targeting hezbolla yet as with any war collatrole damage occurs. i trully feel for all the innocent victims in this "war". it is very diffucult to target terrorists, because they use hit and run tatics. the musad(isreali cia) is doing the best that they can right now. part of all this is isreal is sick and tired of being picked on by terrorists. when i was in hafia many years ago we were told not to use public trans because just weeks before a bus blew up. waht this all comes down to is a holy war between the jewish people of isreal and the muslims who hate isreal.

some facts about isreal:

military: conscripted service(2 yr min) reservist for life.

jewish state surrounded by muslim states.

*disclaimer: i will not reflect my veiws on the last fact only what is written and were as to avoid many conflicts tha could arise from my belifes.*

this was all written about in the book of revelations. that one day many nations will rise up against isreal.

So Israel is completely innocent in all of this? You say that you were in Haifa (northern Israel, right?), so I don't doubt that you know about the region. But its absurd to think that this is simply Israel "defending" itself as necessary. Israel was looking for any sort of chance to start a war, and this just happened to fit the bill. Does anybody even know how this war was started? Hezbollah captured two Israeli troops on the Israel/Lebanon border. Is that right? Absolutely not. Is it worth destroying an entire country and leaving hundreds of thousands of refugees? Absolutely not.

As Westerners, we tend to put our blinders on when it comes to the Middle East and overwhelmingly favor Israel. It isn't to say that they are horrible, nor is it to say that I'm defending Lebanon. I don't favor or side with anybody here. I just think that it is ignorant how so many people (Americans in particular) feel that Israel is always the victim. Are they a victim a large portion of the time? Definitely. Always, though? No. The hatred between the two goes both ways, and that is often overlooked. The fact of the matter is that Israel is going above and beyond what is necessary to defend themselves in this ordeal, and as a result hundreds of thousands of Lebanese people are suffering.

Waiting for the "you're just anti-Semetic" comments to come in now...

[Project_2501 0]

china won't mess with the 800lb gorilla .. why bite the hand that feeds you

I don't know, why did mankind as a race?

[akhockeyplaya 0]

2. lets not forget that iran and syria ARE providing weapons to hezbolla. no peace is going to happen until iran and syria stop proving weapons. isreal is targeting hezbolla yet as with any war collatrole damage occurs. i trully feel for all the innocent victims in this "war". it is very diffucult to target terrorists, because they use hit and run tatics. the musad(isreali cia) is doing the best that they can right now. part of all this is isreal is sick and tired of being picked on by terrorists. when i was in hafia many years ago we were told not to use public trans because just weeks before a bus blew up. waht this all comes down to is a holy war between the jewish people of isreal and the muslims who hate isreal.

some facts about isreal:

military: conscripted service(2 yr min) reservist for life.

jewish state surrounded by muslim states.

*disclaimer: i will not reflect my veiws on the last fact only what is written and were as to avoid many conflicts tha could arise from my belifes.*

this was all written about in the book of revelations. that one day many nations will rise up against isreal.

So Israel is completely innocent in all of this? You say that you were in Haifa (northern Israel, right?), so I don't doubt that you know about the region. But its absurd to think that this is simply Israel "defending" itself as necessary. Israel was looking for any sort of chance to start a war, and this just happened to fit the bill. Does anybody even know how this war was started? Hezbollah captured two Israeli troops on the Israel/Lebanon border. Is that right? Absolutely not. Is it worth destroying an entire country and leaving hundreds of thousands of refugees? Absolutely not.

As Westerners, we tend to put our blinders on when it comes to the Middle East and overwhelmingly favor Israel. It isn't to say that they are horrible, nor is it to say that I'm defending Lebanon. I don't favor or side with anybody here. I just think that it is ignorant how so many people (Americans in particular) feel that Israel is always the victim. Are they a victim a large portion of the time? Definitely. Always, though? No. The hatred between the two goes both ways, and that is often overlooked. The fact of the matter is that Israel is going above and beyond what is necessary to defend themselves in this ordeal, and as a result hundreds of thousands of Lebanese people are suffering.

Waiting for the "you're just anti-Semetic" comments to come in now...

I doubt you are completely indifferent to the whole war there, but that aside, I really have to disagree with you here. Imagine, for one second, that there is a country in the world that is just pointing a missile at the US. We would give them 48 hours to stop at once and then we would go in and raze their country to the ground. Whichever government supported that act would no longer exist. So why does Israel, who not only has this happening on a 24-hour basis, but also has thousands of rockets actually fired at them, not deserve to respond in kind?

Yes, it absolutely sucks that Lebanon is being destroyed, and that innocent civilians are being hurt. It's one of the more horrific aspects of war. Because that's what this is, regardless of what some want to believe. This is a war. It's a new kind of war, because Israel's enemy is not a easily targeted government. It's an insane group of individuals who, excepting the rockets/munitions, look exactly like the civilians they live amongst. And until the Lebanese government says "We will assist you in hunting down the terrorists, you are in the right", Israel has every right to treat the entire country as an enemy. And so they have, and they've done what they can -- bombing roads used by Hezbollah supporters to provide Hezbollah with missiles, bombing power grids that power Hezbollah militants, bombing airport runways to, again, keep Hezbollah forces from receiving aid. It's not Israel's fault that Hezbollah chooses to use the Lebanese civilians as shields, and considering how tightly packed those areas are, Israel is doing a pretty good job keeping civilian casualties as low as they can. What would you have them do? Politely ask Hezbollah to leave because their presence endangers the civilians around them? Would any other country do the same?

Edit to add: Everyone who says that Israel is going "above and beyond what is necessary to defend themselves" doesn't grasp the situation. Fighting to a cease-fire isn't "defense". The only way for Israel, or any country, to defend themselves in a war, is to completely take away the enemies ability to fight. That doesn't happen by allowing any fraction of Hezbollah or militant anti-Israeli groups to remain. That's the only rule of war.

[kosydar 0]

I understand where you are coming from, and Israel should defend itself as necessary. However, the biggest problem for us Westerners in all of this is our inability to objectively look at a Muslim state. We put our blinders on and simply assume that they're in the wrong because of our past experiences with their religious extremists. We jump to the conclusion that Israel is doing everything right because we align ourselves with them. I don't feel that Lebanon is innocent in all of this. Action needed to be taken, but certainly not this action. You said it yourself, they have done very little to help isolate Hezbollah. But does their inaction towards a state that they hate dictate the destroying of a country and the displacement of hundreds of thousands of innocent people? Had the roles been reversed and two Lebanese soldiers been captured by an Israeli militia, do you honestly think Israel would turn around and hand them over?

[jrhky36 1]

first off i never said that isreal was innocent of any wrong doings. i think i should have said that they were provoked, and yes maybe they were looking for a fight.

to expand on hte missle pointed at you. we had several pointed at US during the cuban missle cirsis in the 50's, remember that? that was stopped with a naval blockade. but the cia was training cuban american to invade and take over cuba. remember the bay of pigs? you aks why don't they do something like that in the middle east? in this sitituation they can't. hezaboola is getting their arms from inland (syria and iran) not from the sea. oh the isreali navy is alreaady doing so. it will not be as effective as the blockade of cuba b/c it was a different time, different world culture. let's remember that terrorists will fight until thet last guy standing falls.

[akhockeyplaya 0]

Kosydar: You're right, Israel wouldn't just hand over the terrorists. However, with terrorists, it's a different story. They aren't soldiers, they are criminals. Since their organization goes beyond national boundaries it's not exactly the same situation.

jrhky: I'm not sure to whom you are referring when you say "you ask why don't they do something like that..." If the 'they' in there is referring to America, I wasn't saying that the US should do anything militarily. If the 'they' refers to Israel, I think they are doing what's necessary. You're right in that they don't have a nation to go after, as we did with Cuba. So they're doing all they can do in the situation. They're going to bomb every site that has anything to do with Hezbollah. Sometimes they miss, and casualties occur. It's brutal, but they don't have any other choice really.

Terrorists are like weeds. You don't (the general you, not you in specific) just say "Well they'll keep on growing even when we cut them, so we might as well just not cut them." You get weed-killer and you exterminate every last weed so your garden looks great. Same with terrorists. That's why these wars (War on Terror, Israel's fight...) are different. They won't be won with "Omaha Beach" type campaigns. They'll be won over a 50 year period when the people of the ME, and the world, finally rise up and stop accepting terrorist groups/acts. So look forward to 50 more years of the media decrying all our military efforts...

[Chadd 916]

I find it sad that world leaders are calling for a cease fire and want Israel and Hezbollah (sp?) to negotiate a settlement. The terrorists don't believe that Israel should exist in any form, that kind of makes it hard to find a middle ground. Something needs to happen to prevent Iran from supporting the more anti-semitic terrorist organizations. Removing the ultra-fundamentalist ruling party in Iran would be a good first step in resolving the problems.

[kosydar 0]

Something needs to happen to prevent Iran from supporting the more anti-semitic terrorist organizations. Removing the ultra-fundamentalist ruling party in Iran would be a good first step in resolving the problems.

While I would agree with you, I don't see how that can be done. The previous attempts (the original Shah, and then his son) were both widely regarded as illegitimate in the eyes of Iranians. The people won't sit back and support a government controlled by people they don't feel deserve to be in power. And as messed up as it is, the people of Iran overwhelmingly support their current government. The vast majority of them supported the Ayatollah and a return to a strictly regulated Muslim state.

[Chadd 916]

Something needs to happen to prevent Iran from supporting the more anti-semitic terrorist organizations. Removing the ultra-fundamentalist ruling party in Iran would be a good first step in resolving the problems.

While I would agree with you, I don't see how that can be done. The previous attempts (the original Shah, and then his son) were both widely regarded as illegitimate in the eyes of Iranians. The people won't sit back and support a government controlled by people they don't feel deserve to be in power.

According to most accounts, the general public there doesn't support the current regime either. I just figure that is easier than banning religion worldwide since that's the real root of the problem.

[kosydar 0]

Thats interested because from what I learned in one of my poli sci classes, the majority of Iranians wanted that return (which I edited into my previous post). The text the course revolved around was 4-5 years old, so I don't know how much has changed. Still, I doubt that many Iranians will support an Israeli state in any shape, way, or form.

[Chadd 916]

Still, I doubt that many Iranians will support an Israeli state in any shape, way, or form.

Exactly. The problem is the passing down of hatred from generation to generation. It's always easier to blame some other group for anything and everything that goes wrong in your life.

[lamplighter 0]

If the surrounding Arab countries in that region are disarmed there will be peace I gaurantee it...if Israel is disarmed there will be another Holocaust...its that simple.

[Chadd 916]

If the surrounding Arab countries in that region are disarmed there will be peace I gaurantee it...if Israel is disarmed there will be another Holocaust...its that simple.

First of all you will never disarm them all. Second, it still wouldn't make the extremists stop hating them for being Jewish so there wouldn't be peace.

[ktang 34]

Terrorists are like weeds. You don't (the general you, not you in specific) just say "Well they'll keep on growing even when we cut them, so we might as well just not cut them." You get weed-killer and you exterminate every last weed so your garden looks great. Same with terrorists. That's why these wars (War on Terror, Israel's fight...) are different. They won't be won with "Omaha Beach" type campaigns. They'll be won over a 50 year period when the people of the ME, and the world, finally rise up and stop accepting terrorist groups/acts. So look forward to 50 more years of the media decrying all our military efforts...

I think that you have hit upon the difference between the response to the latest wave of terrorism and previous responses.

Clinton did nothing after the Beirut Marine barracks bombing, and Margaret Thatcher continued with a public ceremony even after evidence of an IRA plot was discovered. The thinking then was that reacting to these incidents would legitimize the terrorists' causes, so it was better to pretend that their actions didn't matter.

So, the terrorists got more and more bold because there were no consequences, and the weeds grew, until 9/11. Bush Jr. definitely has a different mentality than Clinton, and said (paraphrasing), "enough is enough, we've got to root out those weeds. It won't be quick or easy; it will be a long struggle, but we have to do it."

[shnuggs 0]

Clinton did nothing after the Beirut Marine barracks bombing,

Clinton?

[gp3r 0]

Posted on Jul 31 2006, 05:15 PM

  QUOTE (lamplighter @ Jul 31 2006, 05:18 PM)

If the surrounding Arab countries in that region are disarmed there will be peace I gaurantee it...if Israel is disarmed there will be another Holocaust...its that simple. 

First of all you will never disarm them all. Second, it still wouldn't make the extremists stop hating them for being Jewish so there wouldn't be peace. 

Of course you will never be able to disarm them, and you know why: because the U.S., Russia, China, France and the United Kingdom are the world's largest providers of weapons. You want to know whats even more troubling, those five countries are the five permanent members of the UN's Security Council(so much for the UN's involvement). The fact of the matter is, the G8 countires have no interest in disarming those countries, since the ongoing war in bringing more money in each and every day. For the great powers of the world, war means wealth.

So yes, the extremist are to blame, as they seem to not value life at all, and see their point of view as the only valuable one. But at the same time, everybody is to blame, one way or another. The world is to blame, for not being more tolerant toward the differences that make our planet, in my mind, so wonderful.

Don't forget that the U.S. are the one who created the military threat in Iran for example, as they were the ones who armed both Iraq and Iran during the first golf war, only to make more money.

It is never too late for diplomatic solutionning.

''The world was made through war, and somehow, I feel that's the way it's gonna end''

[Meathead 0]

I wasn't around back then, but when we were a lot closer to WWIII in the 60's-80's during the Cold War. It was just a matter of time before a nuclear war busted out and Russia was actually big enough to outlast the States in all out nuclear warfare, in theory. While you never should take anything like this lightly, I doubt that this is the 3rd war to end all wars.