Home-Run Record.

[Jason Harris 31]

You are correct that hitting alone is not enough evidence that someone is indulging in additives. And maybe I got too cute with my words about the balloon head, but when I first saw him in May 2005, after he had finally rediscovered his stroke, I turned to my wife and said, "Oh, geez, he's using stuff again....." (Actually, the word was he had rediscovered his bat speed, something that would be effected by strength and technique.)

The difference between even the guy who had given a press conference two months earlier and at that point was obvious.

[TBLfan 25]

Personally, I feel that Giambi was taken off the juice when he got to New York; which would explain his drop off. In big markets like New York and Boston(and the like) there is too much to lose if one of your players is caught using those substances. The payrolls are a product of revenue and revenue would definitely take a hit if one of their players is found on the juice.

In markets like Oakland(Canseco, Big Mac, Giambi, Ben Grieve?, Dye?) and Cleveland(Manny, Belle, Lofton?) steriod use is probably made more available because of their relatively lower revenue numbers... especially because in those areas they don't put fans in the stadiums unless they are winning.

[Jason Harris 31]

I understand your reasoning, but both Giambi and Sheffield admitted/alluded to using steroids while in NY. And I (and whispers in the media) have been suspicious of 4-5 of the Sox players of recent years.

[TBLfan 25]

I don't see anyone on the sox that I think might be on the stuff. I think Manny was back in his cleveland days but I've heard rumors that he goes back home in the offseason to do the stuff and bulk up. I don't really believe it because as stupid as Manny is he's not THAT stupid.

[sabre09923 0]

I don't see anyone on the sox that I think might be on the stuff. I think Manny was back in his cleveland days but I've heard rumors that he goes back home in the offseason to do the stuff and bulk up. I don't really believe it because as stupid as Manny is he's not THAT stupid.

Manny has had a good work ethic. Everyone in the Boston media and elsewhere raves about how hard he works off the field to keep his game up.

[LegoDoom 0]

Just because someone starts hitting again doesn't mean they are on something. I'm sure because Abreu wasn't playing well in philly that he MUST be on something because he's been productive in New York.

Abreu is too lazy to take steriods.

[Jason Harris 31]

I don't see anyone on the sox that I think might be on the stuff. I think Manny was back in his cleveland days but I've heard rumors that he goes back home in the offseason to do the stuff and bulk up. I don't really believe it because as stupid as Manny is he's not THAT stupid.

The most commonly whispered name had been Nomar, because he had bulked up thirty pounds over four years and had a number of muscle tear injuries. I've seen Kapler defend himself in the paper on at least two occasions. Nixon said he put on 28 pounds one offseason, although part of it appeared to be fat. Then, there are three others I've wondered about, but that's just my own conjecture. (Manny's not one of them.)

I watched "CostasNow" last night and there was a vignette on HGH. John Runyon (?) estimated that 15%-20% of the NFL players are on HGH/steroids, and that he'd been offered it to speed up the recovery of a major injury he has. Dana Stubblefield admitted to taking HGH to extend his career; he estimated the number of users at 30%.

They both alluded to the money at stake being the driving force. Would baseball be that different?

[LegoDoom 0]

Luis Castillo put up good numbers at the combine last year while coming off an injury. He admitted to taking steriods to speed up recovery and still was drafted in the first round last year.

[TBLfan 25]

I believe that manny had his time in cleveland where he was on the stuff. I remember him being larger and even breaking a few bats on check swings... I'm definitely not saying that he's on it now, as I made it clear that I believe that most big markets(mainly the yankees and red sux do to their large revenue numbers and risk if one of their players test positive) are drug free.

In my opinion Manny has bulked down a LOT since he got to Boston; as big as he is now, he was bigger(especially in the shoulders and arms.

[willc7786 0]

I think Nomar definitely did for a while. A common clue is that players start to get some weird injuries, and Nomar is definitely a poster boy for that.

I don't think Giambi started anything again, but that it took him a while to get into the flow of playing without the aid of anything. You were an MVP when on something, and then three years later you're clean, I can see that messing him up until he got back to 'normal'.

And as far as Manny's workout being raved about, the same was said of Barry Bonds, who "in his prime" had a workout second only to Roger Clemens.

[JR Boucicaut 3802]

Ah you know Roger did...that head is BIG!

[Jason Harris 31]

I believe that manny had his time in cleveland where he was on the stuff. I remember him being larger and even breaking a few bats on check swings... I'm definitely not saying that he's on it now, as I made it clear that I believe that most big markets(mainly the yankees and red sux do to their large revenue numbers and risk if one of their players test positive) are drug free.

In my opinion Manny has bulked down a LOT since he got to Boston; as big as he is now, he was bigger(especially in the shoulders and arms.

I don't believe larger markets put as large a pressure on being clean as you do. Back in the 1986, a week after getting trounced by the Bears in the Super Bowl, a scandal broke out that quite a few members of the Patriots were implicated in drug use. (I think it was cocaine.)

Anyone who is from Boston will tell you the media was just as intrusive 20 years ago as they are now.

Think about the Olympics (or even the Tour de France). That's the largest stage of all and athletes are constantly cheating. Whenever I read articles about the World Doping Agency, they seem to think far more athletes are using drugs than are being caught.

And, JR, I'd agree that Roger has moved over to my Suspect list.

[TBLfan 25]

Well is baseball especially with those large markets it's the fans that buy the merchandise and the tickets and watch the tv networks that brings in the revenue to pay the payroll. If a player is found to be on drugs such as that, immediately the rest of the team is rumored to be participating and that leads to less sales, less tickets sold and less people watching... in turn that would lead to less money coming in and they'd have to start dumping payroll, which would probably take them out of contention and would lead to even less revenue. Think of the hit baseball took after the strike season, the baseball market is fickle at times.

Heck you talk about the 86 Pats... how many years of decline did they have after that? Possibly because of the scandal?

And last I checked the olympics and tour de france has lost a LOT of viewers and popularity, mainly in the US but also around the world.

[willc7786 0]

There's some signs to Clemens, but I think the number one thing in his defense is that he's not breaking down. He'd definitely have been tested by now, and he's pitching as well as he ever has (well, of course besides the years where he absolutely dominated). Plus he hasn't had the large amount of injures ala Giambi/Nomar/Bonds/Sosa

[Jason Harris 31]

Well is baseball especially with those large markets it's the fans that buy the merchandise and the tickets and watch the tv networks that brings in the revenue to pay the payroll. If a player is found to be on drugs such as that, immediately the rest of the team is rumored to be participating and that leads to less sales, less tickets sold and less people watching... in turn that would lead to less money coming in and they'd have to start dumping payroll, which would probably take them out of contention and would lead to even less revenue. Think of the hit baseball took after the strike season, the baseball market is fickle at times.

Heck you talk about the 86 Pats... how many years of decline did they have after that? Possibly because of the scandal?

And last I checked the olympics and tour de france has lost a LOT of viewers and popularity, mainly in the US but also around the world.

TBL, your comments suggest that the teams have control over the players. Most articles have suggested nearly the opposite occurs -- teams choose to ignore the signs of what the players are doing.

I would bet big dollars that 20 of 25 players on any team are using over-the-counter supplements -- some of which historically have become banned later -- while 5+ players are using banned or illegal substances. I'm surre similar numbers hold true in other sports.

Hell, when Johnny Damon was on the Sox, he left little doubt that he and many of his teammates were using amphetamines. He was the Sox's player rep and argued vociferously to the reporters that "greenies" shouldn't be banned. He said players need pick-me-ups or the game would suffer during the dog days. It was impossible to come to any conclusion other than he was using them himself. The articles said the clubhouse had a container of "greenies" that players could grab whenever they wanted. I'm not sure but aren't amphetamines illegal without a prescription?

These guys play until 10:00, shower, go to press conferences, go out to dinner/drinks/groupies, then have to wake up early enough to be at the field by 1:00-ish. I could see how that lifestyle would catch up to them. They've also been coddled their entire lives and learned at an early age that it's easier to gain forgiveness than permission.

Where they play would have little to do with whether they are the personality type that would cheat -- or gain an edge as they might say.

[JR Boucicaut 3802]

I don't believe larger markets put as large a pressure on being clean as you do. Back in the 1986, a week after getting trounced by the Bears in the Super Bowl, a scandal broke out that quite a few members of the Patriots were implicated in drug use. (I think it was cocaine.)

Hell, look at the 86 Mets - guys were snorting lines on the tray tables on the flight back from being Houston in the NLCS.

[TBLfan 25]

Well is baseball especially with those large markets it's the fans that buy the merchandise and the tickets and watch the tv networks that brings in the revenue to pay the payroll. If a player is found to be on drugs such as that, immediately the rest of the team is rumored to be participating and that leads to less sales, less tickets sold and less people watching... in turn that would lead to less money coming in and they'd have to start dumping payroll, which would probably take them out of contention and would lead to even less revenue. Think of the hit baseball took after the strike season, the baseball market is fickle at times.

Heck you talk about the 86 Pats... how many years of decline did they have after that? Possibly because of the scandal?

And last I checked the olympics and tour de france has lost a LOT of viewers and popularity, mainly in the US but also around the world.

TBL, your comments suggest that the teams have control over the players. Most articles have suggested nearly the opposite occurs -- teams choose to ignore the signs of what the players are doing.

I would bet big dollars that 20 of 25 players on any team are using over-the-counter supplements -- some of which historically have become banned later -- while 5+ players are using banned or illegal substances. I'm surre similar numbers hold true in other sports.

Hell, when Johnny Damon was on the Sox, he left little doubt that he and many of his teammates were using amphetamines. He was the Sox's player rep and argued vociferously to the reporters that "greenies" shouldn't be banned. He said players need pick-me-ups or the game would suffer during the dog days. It was impossible to come to any conclusion other than he was using them himself. The articles said the clubhouse had a container of "greenies" that players could grab whenever they wanted. I'm not sure but aren't amphetamines illegal without a prescription?

These guys play until 10:00, shower, go to press conferences, go out to dinner/drinks/groupies, then have to wake up early enough to be at the field by 1:00-ish. I could see how that lifestyle would catch up to them. They've also been coddled their entire lives and learned at an early age that it's easier to gain forgiveness than permission.

Where they play would have little to do with whether they are the personality type that would cheat -- or gain an edge as they might say.

Well of course the players ultimately decide what they are putting into their body but I think the team has a LARGE part in saying what their players are doing. If you're paying players as much as these teams are you have to have some sort of say into the work habits(working hard vs using supliments) they use. I honestly don't see someone being paid 10+mill a year and the team not paying close attention to what is going on off the field.

[Jason Harris 31]

Well of course the players ultimately decide what they are putting into their body but I think the team has a LARGE part in saying what their players are doing. If you're paying players as much as these teams are you have to have some sort of say into the work habits(working hard vs using supliments) they use. I honestly don't see someone being paid 10+mill a year and the team not paying close attention to what is going on off the field.

I still don't believe the teams have that type of oversight. Let's break it down into who we know and have good reason to generally assume has taken performance enhancing drugs.

We know that Bonds, Conseco, Giambi, Sheffield, Palmeiro and Caminiti have taken drugs. Each of those players were stars earning over $10 mil, at least four were MVP's, five of them played in large markets, and at least four were heavily suspected of using but only Palmiero was caught by MLB.

Enough anecdotal evidence has occured that we can generally assume that McGwire and Sosa took drugs. Tejada was hinted at last year. Whispers about Nomar and Rocket. Brady Anderson's aberation of 50 homers. Luis Gonzalez's 50.

There are more but I'm just going after the big names. Most of those players earned over $10 mil. Half of them played in large markets.

If the teams have a great deal of influence over their investments, then one has to presume the Giants, Sox, Orioles, Yankees, Cubs, Cards, Rangers and Padres are not being diligent. Or one could take the cynical view and say the teams have suspicions but like the draw these players are at the gate.

[willc7786 0]

You just hit the nail on the head, the teams don't care because its getting them big money. If a player is caught, all the bad press is put on them, not the team. And then what does the team do? Look into voiding his contract so they don't have to pay the huge amount of money they signed him for. The teams definitely know, since a bunch of the players caught, and allegations made by other players, indicate that a lot of injections happen on team property. If the manager doesn't see, which he most likely does, then someone working for the team itself definitely sees and reports it.

[TBLfan 25]

Well of course the players ultimately decide what they are putting into their body but I think the team has a LARGE part in saying what their players are doing. If you're paying players as much as these teams are you have to have some sort of say into the work habits(working hard vs using supliments) they use. I honestly don't see someone being paid 10+mill a year and the team not paying close attention to what is going on off the field.

I still don't believe the teams have that type of oversight. Let's break it down into who we know and have good reason to generally assume has taken performance enhancing drugs.

We know that Bonds, Conseco, Giambi, Sheffield, Palmeiro and Caminiti have taken drugs. Each of those players were stars earning over $10 mil, at least four were MVP's, five of them played in large markets, and at least four were heavily suspected of using but only Palmiero was caught by MLB.

Enough anecdotal evidence has occured that we can generally assume that McGwire and Sosa took drugs. Tejada was hinted at last year. Whispers about Nomar and Rocket. Brady Anderson's aberation of 50 homers. Luis Gonzalez's 50.

There are more but I'm just going after the big names. Most of those players earned over $10 mil. Half of them played in large markets.

If the teams have a great deal of influence over their investments, then one has to presume the Giants, Sox, Orioles, Yankees, Cubs, Cards, Rangers and Padres are not being diligent. Or one could take the cynical view and say the teams have suspicions but like the draw these players are at the gate.

I still believe that the big markets are virtually drug free. If you look at all those players listed they were in smaller markets and went to larger markets or were in smaller markets.

Bonds - Pittsburg/San Fran

Conseco - Oakland/Rangers

Giambi - Oakland/New York(notice the drop off in production)

Sheff - Padres/Marlins/Dodgers/Atlanta/New York(BA and SLG% has dropped, but hes been up and down his whole career)

I still hold my arguement that the bigger markets have a lot to lose from negative publicity(not the usual, A-Rod said this, Ortiz said that crap). Heck, "the boss" won't even let a Yankee have long hair and you can think that he'd let him take drugs. In New York specifically, it's almost as much about image as it is about winning.

Either way we're really not going to change eachother's opinion. *shrug*

[Jason Harris 31]

I still hold my arguement that the bigger markets have a lot to lose from negative publicity(not the usual, A-Rod said this, Ortiz said that crap). Heck, "the boss" won't even let a Yankee have long hair and you can think that he'd let him take drugs. In New York specifically, it's almost as much about image as it is about winning.

I agree it's possible a bigger market team could suffer more from a scandal, although I think a team would just say "We didn't know."

Of the players listed earlier, they played in 6 of the Top 12 largest cities, 7 of the Top 17 and 8 of the Top 23 (St Louis was the only city out of the Top 50). Of course, the population of outlying towns would move some cities up the rankings. Also, Bonds is assumed to have started while in SF (bigger than Pittsburgh), while Giambi and Sheffield were exposed/caught while playing in NY.

I understand we're not likely to change the other's mind, but the facts don't bear out that the teams in larger cities do a better job of policing their players than do those in smaller cities.

[TBLfan 25]

Neither Giambi or Sheffield were caught, they admitted to something... And both happened to be while they were in New York when the big performance enhancing scandal was going on and neither ever tested positive. Which makes one to believe that they were on the stuff previously before the league started to crack down... Which would be before they were in New York.

There's no real evidence for ANYTHING because of all the cover up... But the circumstantial evidence supports my theory, in my opinion.

[Jason Harris 31]

USA Today has an article in which Giambi allegedly told reporters ""I was wrong for doing that stuff," and "What we should have done a long time ago was stand up — players, ownership, everybody — and said: 'We made a mistake.'

Here's the one I find funny, however: "That stuff didn't help me hit home runs. I don't care what people say, nothing is going to give you that gift of hitting a baseball."

1) In that case, why did he take them?

2) It seems intuitive that those people who have the gift of hitting a baseball would have the new gift of hitting a baseball farther. 15-20 lbs of body weight tends to do that.