What's the big deal with skates becoming so light?

[DarkStar50 679]

That is great info to share with us. Thanks for putting this together. This is a great example of what goes on long before any product hits the market.

As for blade runner length, the original Tuuk had longer blades mounted on boots back in the 80s. My size 6 skates always came with Tuuk 260 until Tuuk Custom was introduced. Then all my size 6 skates had 254s from the factory. I would always remove them and install 260s. I only stopped doing that about 3 years ago. I am no top-end skater but I always felt more comfortable with the longer 260 runner.

[hockeyizlife94 0]

its funny how grafs 7 series skates which came out almost 10 or so years ago(703's) are still some of the lightest, and most durable skates.

i think the most important things about skates are there mechanics, like stiffness , comfort, and flexpoints.

[Wolfpack_1986 154]

nvm

[icefish 0]

wow nice technical drawings. so I guess there is a bit more difference than just clear plastic heh.

[jimmy 194]

....True, putting a larger holder/steel on a skate can make a difference but what baffles me is that while the power runner is longer, my measurements of the steel shows the extra length on the very end of the heel, not at the front, and the holders seem to be mounted in the same location as the regular LS holders. 

Take a LS power steel and place it under a LS2 steel and overlap the two blades. Look at the "extra" length which is all at the rear and tell me where more speed is coming from. No part of that extra steel is contacting the ice. The shape of that steel has nothing to do with speedskates. So comparing them to research done on speed skates can be thrown out the window. Next?

Since I know a lot of MSH members are interested in actual fact, I asked one of our skate engineers to put together a drawing with a proper comparison of the LS Power and the LS 2.

He took the CAD models for each and superimposed the side views at the same scale and you can see the result below (if I can figure out how to use the image link properly). The red wireframe is the LS Power, the green one is the LS 2.

The diagram shows that the approximately 7 mm of additional length of the LS Power (for a size 8 skate holder) is composed of 1.1 mm at the rear and 5.8 mm at the front.

I am not sure how one could arrive at the conclusion that all the differential length of the LS Power is at the rear. Unless in overlapping the two runners, you aligned them at the hook. This would be incorrect as the hook, and the plastic recess it fits into, are further forward in the LS Power than in the LS 2, as I hope can be seen from the diagram. But it should also make sense in considering that the material of the LS 2 shrinks more than the material of the LS Power. The further you are away from the injection point, the greater the dimensional difference due to differential shrink factors.

And one more time, the idea did not come from speed skating, the idea of being able to generate more speed from a longer hockey blade originated with hockey players. The speed skating research only came into play when we later looked into it and tried to first establish a basis for why this would be true: the simple equation equating skating velocity to the product of stride rate and stride length. A longer runner can enable a skater to increase his stride length.

kc

Thanks for the drawing. Good to open a discussion on this topic. Let's examine some additional "facts". The sketch position of the steel and shape of the steel is different than the actual blades that are on the skates. I've taken a few pics of new, virgin, never sharpened LS2 and LS power runners overlapped at various angles. I also took pics of two pair of skates, one with LS2 and one with LSPOWER. You'll notice when the blades are aligned at the toe, the contour of the blades are virtually identical (except strangely the LS2 had a bit more toe metal). Noticably, for the LSpower the extra length is at the rear. Now, theoretically if the LSpower holder was mounted more forward of the LS2 and the steel was more forward on the skate, I could see a difference in skating feel as the runner would grab sooner in the skating stride, however, as you can see in the photos, the approx location of the steel in reference the toe cap is identical, about 1/4" forward of the toe cap. Understand, I did not have a micrometer to measure, but to the eye and using a straght edge, I could not see any extra length at the front for the LSpower in reference to the skate. Certainly not as dramatic as the 5.8 shown in the sketch.

http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/8432/img1638ej4.jpg

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/4317/img1644vx1.jpg

position of steel on LS power

http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/4387/img1643ux5.jpg

position of steel on LS2

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/3329/img1639br9.jpg

ls2 runner is the left one

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/2302/img1641kz7.jpg

http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/8585/img1636ym7.jpg

My pics aren't the greatest quality and I couldn't get a clear picture with the entire lengths of the blades., but for those who are curious, go to your local skate shop and ask them if you can look at a lspower and ls2 runner and do the comparison yourselves. While your there grab a skate with each holder on it and do a visual comparision as well.

Al this technical crap aside, what we really just want to know is the actual performance to be gained by swithing to these runners, i.e., is it 1%, 10%, 2 strides, .067 mph, whatever. How that was deternined would be nice too.

[DarkStar50 679]

Wouldn't the "actual performance gained by the runners" be determined by the ability of the actual individual skater? Wouldn't a Bantam AAA skater gain a greater performance out of the runners than a Bantam B skater? The very nature of the AAA player being a better skater than the B player gives him the advantage to have an "actual performance gain" greater than the B player. How do you fairly and accurately expect a %, a stride, a mph increase that is across the board accurate and quantifiable? I think you are seeking a number that could not possibly exist. The ability of any product to "perform better" is determined ultimately by the player using the product. The product may offer the player the opportunity to have "actual performance gain" if he has the ability to use the product properly. Many players at all levels have switched to OPS. Has every player now using a OPS had an "actual performance gained" shooting with a OPS if he does not know how to correctly shoot? As you continue your search to quantify these numbers you so desparately seek, you may be missing the obvious conclusion: the vendor can only provide the product to improve your game. It is up to the player to take advantage of that opportunity.

Check out the other thread on skate sharpening with Canadian University level players skating on incorrectly sharpened skates! Here is an example of players with skill and talent who do not combine the chance to improve their game by properly maintaining their most important piece of equipment: their skates! How could a vendor quantify a %, a stride, a mph increase with a NUMBER and make it be an accurate and authentic claim when the final variable in the equation is the unknown: the skater! And also, the sharpener!

The vendor provides the product that enables the player to improve his game. Skates, sticks, whatever. The final result of improvement rests with the player. Do you sell product with the claim that you will back it up to improve the player's game? I sell product with the claim that you will have the opportunity to improve your game. The rest is up to the player. I think the vendor is making the same statement to us, the dealers. Here is the product, explain the features and benefits, now see if the player can take advantage of the product.

[jimmy 194]

True, each skater is different. And I'm very aware of Dr Kelly Lockwood's studies on sharpening and radius, and have corrersponded with her several times over the years. However, she has proven results through extensive testing and has documented her results.

Essentially what you are saying is there is no quantifiable proof of claims that the LS Power steel gives more power or makes you go faster. I find that hard to believe. How could a company market a product without some controlled testing on which to base their claim?

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

Jimmy, the testing is in the NHL watch the guys like in last nights Toronto Ottawa game. The players with the ONE90 with LS2P holder runner were faster and more controlled than last year. Why do I say this is because last year these guys werent near as noticed for there playmaking but for there toughnes.

Jimmy you just need to chill out there are all kinds of companies all over the world that make claims far more out there than one that eithere you believe or not.

I personally think that there is a little to much toe on the LS2P and have reduced the profile on some players (hockeymom's daughter) in order for her to be able to transition better. If your as good as you say how do we know this do you have facts to back your sharpening up>??? or are all the people wrtining on your page just thinks you have added names to?

Lets discuss something way more importnant......this has had enough time waisted on it.......you either like them or you dont!

ah forget it i give up@

[NuggyBuggy 0]

Wouldn't the "actual performance gained by the runners" be determined by the ability of the actual individual skater?

Yes, you would have to control for the skaters' abilities. Conceptually this is simple to do. You would assess skaters on their ability beforehand, then match up pairs of skaters who are similar as possible in performance, then randomly assign one member of each pair to the (say) LSp group and the other to the (say) LS2 group. Assuming you have formed your pairs properly, any difference between the two groups would be attributable to the difference in holder.

[O-zone 0]

Lord, this does not seem like it will ever end, shades of Monty Python's Black Knight...

Essentially what you are saying is there is no quantifiable proof of claims that the LS Power steel gives more power or makes you go faster.  I find that hard to believe.  How could a company market a product without some controlled testing on which to base their claim?

Well, actually, if you are going to dissect claims and nail a company to the wall for making them, you are not supposed to fudge in any way the exact words of the claim, that is kind of an important concept.

Show me where NBH says that "LS Power gives more power". Tell me where NBH has written that LS Power "makes you go faster".

I hope to heck that these statements have not been made; I looked and did not find them. Mind you, it is not a perfect world and it would not be the first time that something got lost in translation between R&D and marketing or sales; it happens, even if we and other companies do our best to guard against it.

Let's look at what is actually said in the NBH catalog in reference to the LS 2 Power: "It's designed with a longer runner to maximize blade to ice contact and increase speed and energy during the glide phase".

The intent behind this statement is to provide some explanation of what is different about the LS 2 Power vs the LS 2. We had choices to make during the development phase, as I mentioned earlier. We could have kept looking for a different material to use, for example, so that the runner lengths would have been the same. But, because of the reasoning I have outlined previously, we made a design decision to go with a slightly longer holder & runner, on the grounds that the potential speed benefit was a great fit with the performance goals of the One90 skate that it was going on, i.e., improved efficiency/energy transfer enabling enhanced power and speed.

So the statement tells you why the LS 2 Power was designed with a longer runner. End of story, as far as what is "claimed". Looking at the rest of the statement, I acknowledge that the phrase "to maximize blade to ice contact" can be read to mean contact distance, which is not true, vs contact time, which was the actual intent. And finally, "during the glide phase" is a flat-out error, it should read have read "push-off phase" or "power generation phase".

And finally, with respect to Jimmy's insistence that the drawing I provided was false and his photos somehow prove this, I am sorry but I cannot figure out what he is talking about, looking at those photos. The drawing I provided was generated from the actual designs of the holders using their 3D CAD models, same ones the molds were created from, as well as the spec drawings for the runners. There may be some variation between what comes out of production vs the designs on paper, e.g., due to environmental conditions during molding, etc., or some small variability in the process of seating and positioning runners in the holders, but not to the extent maintained by Jimmy.

Anyhow, regardless, one thing I agree 100% with Jimmy on is to go check for yourself at an LHS, hold up the same size LS 2 and LS 2 Power and you should see pretty much exactly what I showed with the drawing.

That's it for me. All I have tried to do is provide information where possible to correct misinformation or mistaken speculation, by giving you access to things which happen behind the scenes at NBH. This thread sure got hijacked, which is a shame because the original topic opened by Kovy was a very interesting one which was starting to generate a pretty lively exchange of ideas.

kc

[althoma1 575]

O-zone Posted on Oct 6 2006, 03:10 PM Show me where NBH says that "LS Power gives more power".

Read point 4 of the Fit Tips PDF which is available on the NikeBauer hockey website.

One90 Fit Tips PDF

The Supreme One90 skate features the LS2

Power holder, the most advanced holder ever created by Nike Bauer

Hockey. The LS2 Power holder features a longer runner, putting more

blade on the ice for increased power. Even though the added length to the

LS2 Power runner is only 3-4mm, the difference on ice may require some

time to adjust. This transition can be made easier by immediately profiling

the radius of the runner to ensure a similar shape to your existing skates.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

I think O-zone made all that up....LOL........... <_<

[flood 0]

not trying to upset you or anything jimmy but a few pages back you posted that you've asked everyone if they felt like they gained speed with lsp2 holders and noone said yes, well i thought i would say that i notice quite a bit more speed in my supreme 70's than with any other skate i have ever used so i really don't know about the marketing aspects and the claims they made all i know is that i am getting results with the new holder and that's good enough for me.

[jimmy 194]

not trying to upset you or anything jimmy but a few pages back you posted that you've asked everyone if they felt like they gained speed with lsp2 holders and noone said yes, well i thought i would say that i notice quite a bit more speed in my supreme 70's than with any other skate i have ever used so i really don't know about the marketing aspects and the claims they made all i know is that i am getting results with the new holder and that's good enough for me.

Actually, I'm not upset at all. It's nice to see when someone is happy with a product. Most of my customers are very happy with their 190's and 70's, and love the skates, that wasn't the point or issue. They are nice skates, very comfortable and light. I was simply tring to find the basis for the claim of more power/speed from the change in steel length. While you may have seen an increase, do we really know where that came from? Not really. Sometimes folks just do better when they gain confidence from a new piece of equipment. Anecdotal results are not good enough to base marketing claims, but for the individual results, they are all that matters.

[flood 0]

actually i noticed the change direclty in the holder, when i bought the skates i wasn't happy with the way the holders looked so i had my lightspeed 2 put on there, but then when i broke one of my holders i didn't really want to buy another so i had the old ones put back on and i noticed and immediate and dramatic change, i'm not sure why but like i said before i'm a believer that the new holder is an improvment.