Skate Sharpening/Radius

[ag12 0]

I just decided to try a new LHS that has recently opened here in the area for a skate sharpening. I've had a 9' radius on my skates. When I was walking around the store looking at the gear I was listening to my skates being sharpened and it sounded like the guy wasn't cleanly passing the skate through the sharpener but sliding it back and forth and never taking the skate off the stone. Would this ruin my radius? I haven't been on my skates since, I will be tomorrow, but I was wondering if this may have an effect after one sharpening like this.....

[JR Boucicaut 3804]

The term is climb-grinding, and the reason why it is called that is because you are actually "climbing" on the heel/toe radius when you swing it the opposite way. This will take off 3x more steel from the heel/toe and leaves you with that rounded, "banana" shaped steel.

Not good.

[ag12 0]

The term is climb-grinding, and the reason why it is called that is because you are actually "climbing" on the heel/toe radius when you swing it the opposite way. This will take off 3x more steel from the heel/toe and leaves you with that rounded, "banana" shaped steel.

Not good.

Yikes, I figured I had a hack sharpening my skates. Thanks for the info JR and the confirmation!! I won't be going back there!! I assume my radius is no longer a 9' anymore then?

[repus 0]

Pretty much, You probably have more of a 3" radius based on your description. You will notice it when you are on the ice.

[DarkStar50 679]

The term is climb-grinding, and the reason why it is called that is because you are actually "climbing" on the heel/toe radius when you swing it the opposite way. This will take off 3x more steel from the heel/toe and leaves you with that rounded, "banana" shaped steel.

Not good.

I've seen NHL equipment guys sharpen skates using this method, back and forth.

Also, how does this method equal taking 3x more steel off the heel and toe? The blade is passing over the wheel the same number of times, whether it is going only one way or not. Depending on the sharpener's glide speed on the table top, he could take off as much steel going one way with the wheel or back and forth on the wheel. Just curious.....

[jimmy 194]

The term is climb-grinding, and the reason why it is called that is because you are actually "climbing" on the heel/toe radius when you swing it the opposite way.  This will take off 3x more steel from the heel/toe and leaves you with that rounded, "banana" shaped steel.

Not good.

I've seen NHL equipment guys sharpen skates using this method, back and forth.

Also, how does this method equal taking 3x more steel off the heel and toe? The blade is passing over the wheel the same number of times, whether it is going only one way or not. Depending on the sharpener's glide speed on the table top, he could take off as much steel going one way with the wheel or back and forth on the wheel. Just curious.....

Less steel is taken off when sharpening in the direction of wheel rotation, more against it.

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

The term is climb-grinding, and the reason why it is called that is because you are actually "climbing" on the heel/toe radius when you swing it the opposite way.  This will take off 3x more steel from the heel/toe and leaves you with that rounded, "banana" shaped steel.

Not good.

I've seen NHL equipment guys sharpen skates using this method, back and forth.

Also, how does this method equal taking 3x more steel off the heel and toe? The blade is passing over the wheel the same number of times, whether it is going only one way or not. Depending on the sharpener's glide speed on the table top, he could take off as much steel going one way with the wheel or back and forth on the wheel. Just curious.....

Not to mention going back and forth overheats the blade to a degeree that the steel will be weakened.

It will not keep its edge nearly as well till it is cross grinded pass the over heated area. Sometimes you cant get past it and your blades are ruined.

As for NHL guys going back and forth I have never seen any do it I am sure there are but they might have a way that they go very lightly so as not to over heat the blade. If they arent the team cant be one of the better skating teams.

[ag12 0]

The term is climb-grinding, and the reason why it is called that is because you are actually "climbing" on the heel/toe radius when you swing it the opposite way.  This will take off 3x more steel from the heel/toe and leaves you with that rounded, "banana" shaped steel.

Not good.

I've seen NHL equipment guys sharpen skates using this method, back and forth.

Also, how does this method equal taking 3x more steel off the heel and toe? The blade is passing over the wheel the same number of times, whether it is going only one way or not. Depending on the sharpener's glide speed on the table top, he could take off as much steel going one way with the wheel or back and forth on the wheel. Just curious.....

Not to mention going back and forth overheats the blade to a degeree that the steel will be weakened.

It will not keep its edge nearly as well till it is cross grinded pass the over heated area. Sometimes you cant get past it and your blades are ruined.

As for NHL guys going back and forth I have never seen any do it I am sure there are but they might have a way that they go very lightly so as not to over heat the blade. If they arent the team cant be one of the better skating teams.

I did stop by another more reputable LHS yesterday and had them check my radius and they said that it was still a 9'. I suppose it would take several sharpening like this to ruin the radius or would once like this do all the damage?

Also I did notice that the finish was somewhat gainy and not smooth. I would assume that this is a result of the overheating?

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

No the grainy finish is from the excessive speed. If it was a brownish color on the finish that is from the overheating.

I callt hat grainy finish Fish scales.

[DarkStar50 679]

Not to get picky, just interested and playing devil's advocate. jimmy's answer is logical, no problem with amount of steel grinded when going against wheel rotation will be more rather than with going with wheel rotation. Given a sharpener's relative glide speed going with the wheel may be a tick slower than back/forth and the amount of passes using either method will be very close if not equal in number, how does the sharpener heat the steel to a degree to damage the steel going back/forth? Yes, the steel is on the wheel close to the same number of total minutes each blade using either method so how does this heat get generated so quickly going b/f in the relative time spent on the wheel? How does the sharpener know he has damaged the steel using this b/f method? What are the clues? Also, how does a blade that has been sharpened using a b/f method "not keep its edge nearly as well" as one way method if the final pass is going with the wheel? What if the sharpener using b/f method stops when he sees his spark rising off the blade, checks to confirm visually that all signs of the cross grind are gone from both edges, and then adds a final pass with or without blade finishing wax? How will his final finish on sharpen, the end product of the sharpening not keep its edge nearly as well? Sorry for all the questions but I would like to hear ideas on this since it is the most important thing we do! Some of these questions I will agree with your answers, just want to confirm what I know!

[JR Boucicaut 3804]

I can do it without overheating the blade/destroying the heel and toe. It is light pressure and I learned from a pro equipment manager.

The reason isn't necessarily because you're going against the grain (even though that is correct), it is the pressure involved in transitioning from one direction to the other that chews up the blade.

[JR Boucicaut 3804]

The term is climb-grinding, and the reason why it is called that is because you are actually "climbing" on the heel/toe radius when you swing it the opposite way.  This will take off 3x more steel from the heel/toe and leaves you with that rounded, "banana" shaped steel.

Not good.

I've seen NHL equipment guys sharpen skates using this method, back and forth.

Also, how does this method equal taking 3x more steel off the heel and toe? The blade is passing over the wheel the same number of times, whether it is going only one way or not. Depending on the sharpener's glide speed on the table top, he could take off as much steel going one way with the wheel or back and forth on the wheel. Just curious.....

Not to mention going back and forth overheats the blade to a degeree that the steel will be weakened.

It will not keep its edge nearly as well till it is cross grinded pass the over heated area. Sometimes you cant get past it and your blades are ruined.

As for NHL guys going back and forth I have never seen any do it I am sure there are but they might have a way that they go very lightly so as not to over heat the blade. If they arent the team cant be one of the better skating teams.

I did stop by another more reputable LHS yesterday and had them check my radius and they said that it was still a 9'. I suppose it would take several sharpening like this to ruin the radius or would once like this do all the damage?

Also I did notice that the finish was somewhat gainy and not smooth. I would assume that this is a result of the overheating?

No, your working radius is fine. It's the heel and toe that are going to be destroyed.

Ever see those skates that have a ton of steel in the middle and none on the heel and toe?

[DarkStar50 679]

I agree JR that the sharpener's skills in the transition at each end are paramount. I also learned a long time ago from a sharpening master how to use the b/f method with the right amount of "touch." We never teach any sharpeners this method in our shop. A sharpener going to slowly with the wheel only at the heel or toe can do as much damage as a sharpener going b/f without any "touch" for what he is doing. Its all about the person using the skate holder!

[JR Boucicaut 3804]

Yes, it's probably the same thing...and I do not show that method to anyone but I sometimes catch myself and realize that my employees are watching me. I had that problem in Orlando - everyone tried it and tons of skates were ruined.

[ag12 0]

The term is climb-grinding, and the reason why it is called that is because you are actually "climbing" on the heel/toe radius when you swing it the opposite way.  This will take off 3x more steel from the heel/toe and leaves you with that rounded, "banana" shaped steel.

Not good.

I've seen NHL equipment guys sharpen skates using this method, back and forth.

Also, how does this method equal taking 3x more steel off the heel and toe? The blade is passing over the wheel the same number of times, whether it is going only one way or not. Depending on the sharpener's glide speed on the table top, he could take off as much steel going one way with the wheel or back and forth on the wheel. Just curious.....

Not to mention going back and forth overheats the blade to a degeree that the steel will be weakened.

It will not keep its edge nearly as well till it is cross grinded pass the over heated area. Sometimes you cant get past it and your blades are ruined.

As for NHL guys going back and forth I have never seen any do it I am sure there are but they might have a way that they go very lightly so as not to over heat the blade. If they arent the team cant be one of the better skating teams.

I did stop by another more reputable LHS yesterday and had them check my radius and they said that it was still a 9'. I suppose it would take several sharpening like this to ruin the radius or would once like this do all the damage?

Also I did notice that the finish was somewhat gainy and not smooth. I would assume that this is a result of the overheating?

No, your working radius is fine. It's the heel and toe that are going to be destroyed.

Ever see those skates that have a ton of steel in the middle and none on the heel and toe?

Would you recommend getting new steel? I can see how that banana shape is start to form a bit.

Yes, I have seen skates like those before with a lot of steel in the middle.

Thanks for the info!

[jimmy 194]

I did stop by another more reputable LHS yesterday and had them check my radius and they said that it was still a 9'. I suppose it would take several sharpening like this to ruin the radius or would once like this do all the damage?

Also I did notice that the finish was somewhat gainy and not smooth. I would assume that this is a result of the overheating?

A radius can be messed up in one sharpening. All the sharpener has to do is pause slightly or press heavy in one area. You can even end up with two radius on a blade, and/or be way off balance depending where the heavy presure was applied. Picture this, the kid is sharpening your skates. Then all of a sudden, this babe wearing a belly shirt with "Hooters" on the front walks by. For a split moment, his hands are not in control. Well, you get the picture. :D

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

Not to get picky, just interested and playing devil's advocate. jimmy's answer is logical, no problem with amount of steel grinded when going against wheel rotation will be more rather than with going with wheel rotation. Given a sharpener's relative glide speed going with the wheel may be a tick slower than back/forth and the amount of passes using either method will be very close if not equal in number, how does the sharpener heat the steel to a degree to damage the steel going back/forth? Yes, the steel is on the wheel close to the same number of total minutes each blade using either method so how does this heat get generated so quickly going b/f in the relative time spent on the wheel? How does the sharpener know he has damaged the steel using this b/f method? What are the clues? Also, how does a blade that has been sharpened using a b/f method "not keep its edge nearly as well" as one way method if the final pass is going with the wheel? What if the sharpener using b/f method stops when he sees his spark rising off the blade, checks to confirm visually that all signs of the cross grind are gone from both edges, and then adds a final pass with or without blade finishing wax? How will his final finish on sharpen, the end product of the sharpening not keep its edge nearly as well? Sorry for all the questions but I would like to hear ideas on this since it is the most important thing we do! Some of these questions I will agree with your answers, just want to confirm what I know!

That was the way I learned at first as well but learning from Max Edge way back now and applying that method with common sense says to teach anyone to go back and forth is just not the best way to go period.

All agree we can do it but why teach someone learning that doesnt have the touch.

All I do all day long is teach sharpening and I believe the proof is in the pudding. At our place we sharpened a total of 95,000 pairs before I started and I am forcasting a total of over 200,000 this year probably close to 225,000. This is in a 2 year period with an increase of just 4 stores and 2 of them are not impacting those numbers at all.

So in short I think I am pretty accurate when I say that going back and forth raises the temp above going with the wheel and going lightly and slowly.

[JR Boucicaut 3804]

Oh, we know, I think we're all in agreement. :)

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

Oh, we know, I think we're all in agreement. :)

Thought so I was just trying to make sure..........Oh by the way JR going to be in Windsor Monday and Tuesday leaving in the Afternoon Tuesday afternoon.

[JR Boucicaut 3804]

Damn, I think I'm going there Wed night. LOL