buy from your lhs!

[oldtrainerguy28 478]

Thats my downfall I never say no......well almost never!

[Chadd 916]

Given the market that I'm in, I'm not really in favor of fitting fees. A good example is one of my best friends; we had to go to four shops to find skates that fit him. One shop had RBKs, but not in his size, the next shop down the road didn't have anything decent in the right size, the third had NBH product but not in his size and the fourth (over an hour drive away) finally had CCM, RBK and NBH in his size. His fitting fees easily could have been over $100 and the "sales-kids" at the shops were utterly useless. If I hadn't been there he would have still ended up with the wrong size.

You're always going to lose some business to the people who have to get the best deal. The funny thing is in the long run, the people who bought from me got a better deal. With baking, proper fitting, sharpenings, etc... they made out much better than buying online 99% of the time.

[RadioGaGa 162]

Given the market that I'm in, I'm not really in favor of fitting fees. A good example is one of my best friends; we had to go to four shops to find skates that fit him. One shop had RBKs, but not in his size, the next shop down the road didn't have anything decent in the right size, the third had NBH product but not in his size and the fourth (over an hour drive away) finally had CCM, RBK and NBH in his size. His fitting fees easily could have been over $100 and the "sales-kids" at the shops were utterly useless. If I hadn't been there he would have still ended up with the wrong size.

You're always going to lose some business to the people who have to get the best deal. The funny thing is in the long run, the people who bought from me got a better deal. With baking, proper fitting, sharpenings, etc... they made out much better than buying online 99% of the time.

How many points did you get on the sale? Sounds like you did all the work?

[Chadd 916]

Given the market that I'm in, I'm not really in favor of fitting fees. A good example is one of my best friends; we had to go to four shops to find skates that fit him. One shop had RBKs, but not in his size, the next shop down the road didn't have anything decent in the right size, the third had NBH product but not in his size and the fourth (over an hour drive away) finally had CCM, RBK and NBH in his size. His fitting fees easily could have been over $100 and the "sales-kids" at the shops were utterly useless. If I hadn't been there he would have still ended up with the wrong size.

You're always going to lose some business to the people who have to get the best deal. The funny thing is in the long run, the people who bought from me got a better deal. With baking, proper fitting, sharpenings, etc... they made out much better than buying online 99% of the time.

How many points did you get on the sale? Sounds like you did all the work?

He's one of the best people I know and I had a free afternoon. That's a profit I'll take any time.

[NuggyBuggy 0]

So 250.00 in profit from sharpening. Kid worked minimum 5 hrs after school probably, 10 pairs of skates an hour. 210 left. 2000 a month for lease, 67 a day. 143 left. 500 a month in utilities, 17 a day. 126 left. 200 a month for phone, internet, etc, 7 a day. 119 left. 400 a month for all your office and business supplies, 13.50 a day. 105.50 left. 100 a month for possible rental equipment, advertsising costs, website costs, etc, etc. 3.50 a day. 102. The owner of this shops profits 102 dollars for that five hours with which they have to save money for the business when times are bad and pay themselves to pay bills. No account for 3-4 days of 20 sharpening by said kid, losing the business money but sitting on inventory that has enough margin to make up for it if joe blow isn't as worried about the 10% hard cost from online.

But you're booking all your overhead against that one kid.

[NuggyBuggy 0]

It is a symbiotic relationship. Joe N needs his lawn mower fixed once in a blue moon and thinks Bob should fix it immediately. Bob can make the decision if he wants to or not. He is not obligated to. He is really not losing business to Joe N because Joe N never gave Bob his business in the first place!

Sure he is. Bob is losing the business that Joe N is trying to give him right now. Maybe Joe N has learned the folly of buying from a place that won't service what they sell. If so, if Bob were willing to give Joe N service, maybe he could then establish a relationship. This relationship might lead to Joe N buying his next mower from Bob, referring his friends, or spreading the wisdom about buying from a place that will take care of you down the road - as you put it, one hand washing the other (only this time it is a different hand starting the washing then you would prefer). If Bob turns Joe N away, he might get exactly the opposite results later on.

Now if Bob's business is such that he has too much service business coming in to handle, but not enough to justify another repair person, then that's a completely different reason to turn down new business.

[Sticks of Fury 0]

You also take the risk of having your shipped items stolen when the delivery guys drop off your stuff at the front door without notifying you the item arrived.

[DarkStar50 680]

I sit next to Bob every Friday night in the locker room before and after we play. We share stories from the front lines of retail. The reason, in this particular situation, Bob's, that he turns away Joe N is that he simply does not need Joe's business. Bob has told me so. Guys like Joe N do not really help Bob's bottom line. The small amount of money earned on the repair of an item not bought from him(when Joe could have spent a few more dollars on the purchase at Bob's with the knowledge that Joe could get any repairs done at Bob's)is not enough for Bob to have to take on the repair job. Bob knows that the potential for Joe to become a regular customer are less than 50/50. Joe has already proven that by shopping at Lowe's. Bob knows this and therefore, Joe, whether he understands it or not, has a history of his shopping/purchasing habits. Bob knows as a businessman that the customers he needs to service are the loyal ones who have already given him their business. It is a free country and Joe has chosen to shop at Lowe's to save a few bucks. Bob has no problem with that. Bob just chooses to service the customers who are his regulars. Unfortunately, it is too easy to look at this situation like its a classroom case of business. Bob should take care of Joe and all the potential business Joe may or may not bring. However, the real world setting is a lot different than the perfect business world ideal we imagine here.

[Dante2004 0]

Just to clarify the lawn mower example. When a customer chooses to go to Lowe's to save a few bucks on a lawn mower, he is too busy thinking about the money he is saving to look at the big picture. What happens if the lawn mower needs to be repaired? Lowe's does not offer a repair service. The same way Hockeyonline shop cannot fix your cracked holder in 1 hour. So, my friend's decision as store owner is to choose to service the guys who do buy from him all the time. These guys are buying bigger and better product. They are spending more money with Bob and his shop than Joe Nickelpincher, who shops at Lowe's. Bob chooses to service the guys who give him their business. It is a symbiotic relationship. Joe N needs his lawn mower fixed once in a blue moon and thinks Bob should fix it immediately. Bob can make the decision if he wants to or not. He is not obligated to. He is really not losing business to Joe N because Joe N never gave Bob his business in the first place!

sdcopp, you understand this dynamic perfectly. TBLfan understands the value of the LHS and how one hand washes the other. Dante, at a LHS the repair man is also the salesman!! So while I spend 45 minutes fixing the holder on the broken CCM Rapide bought at the Sports Authority, I am not spending 45 minutes on the sales floor selling product that equals inventory dollars. Be careful with this idea of buying a hockey rink. There will be a pro shop in the rink and often enough, the pro shop helps to make or break the rink in terms of how good or bad it is run as a business, not as a clubhouse.

I think you are missing my point. Fixing someone's skate holder on the spot while passing up sales opportunities could be costly. But if the customer were able to leave the skate with you and you fixed it during dead time, or even after the shop closed, you wouldn't be missing any sales. From your original lawn mower example, I was assuming that those customers were willing to leave their lawnmower at your friends shop for maintainance and he was still turning them away.

I guess we are approaching this from different angles. You are looking at a SMALL shop with 1 employee. I am thinking of my business (not a hockey shop), where I have several employees and rarely are they ALL on the sales floor at the same time with a customer. They are kept busy with other tasks is a customer does not need assistance; stocking shelves, inventory, cleaning, book keeping, etc. So if a customer comses in and needs something repaired we generally can spare the time to assist them. If they don't have time at the moment, they leave the item and we can repair it later (after hours, dead time later in the day, or whenever). We are still making money off of them and if we treat them right SOME will return later and they realize the value of customer service. But...if they don't, we still make a few dollars off the work.

Oh...and by the way, I don't have a problem what so ever with a LHS charging a fitting fee. Especially when the LHS is located in a rink where I see "window shoppers" killing time between games by going into the shop and trying on gear, flexing sticks, etc. It most cost those shops big $$$ just to keep their product neat and straight on the shelves...

[DarkStar50 680]

Dante,

I don't turn away the broken holder repair in the CCM Rapide. I have been in this business almost 30 years. I know the value of customer service. I learned it a long time ago from two very successful businessmen. They were my first bosses. I was just using the holder as an example of what can happen in a shop. Bob's situation is different. I presented it here as something to think about.

We do not charge a fitting fee in our pro shop. Instead of "window shoppers", I like to use the term "tire kickers."

What kind of business are you running? Just curious.

[lawryde 0]

You also take the risk of having your shipped items stolen when the delivery guys drop off your stuff at the front door without notifying you the item arrived.

If that happens it just means you need to move out of the ghetto :)

Or trailer park :)

[sdcopp 1]

But you're booking all your overhead against that one kid.

How many LHS do you know of that are loaded with staff? Typically a larger store will have more employees with higher costs all around, particularly in lease/mortgage and utilities which can make huge jumps as you increase size and space available. They then have to sell much more just to break even.

[Jarick 5]

Simply put, if you're not making money off sharpenings and repairs, you shouldn't do them. Services are almost all margin.

Any LHS owners or bookkeepers want to spill the beans as to whether or not they'd stay afloat without services? I'd be surprised if the majority of profit came from equipment sales, especially if the price competition with the internet companies is as stiff as it seems.

[sdcopp 1]

Simply put, if you're not making money off sharpenings and repairs, you shouldn't do them. Services are almost all margin.

Any LHS owners or bookkeepers want to spill the beans as to whether or not they'd stay afloat without services? I'd be surprised if the majority of profit came from equipment sales, especially if the price competition with the internet companies is as stiff as it seems.

The point here is though, that margin is not enough nor as much as people think. I think average retail markup across most catergories is 40% (could be way off on that though) Even at only 20%, you still make far more money turning over product than services. How many people will go out and buy a OPS based off of brand and pattern? Let's say I sell a $200 item like a top end ops in 10 minutes. At a 20% margin, I made $40 for 10 minutes of work. Using the sharpening example, that's 2 sharpenings for $10 for the same ten minutes. Now what if I am right with the 40% average? $80 vs $10, which seems to be the better profitability in the long run?

Services add invaluable customer service and do help the margins, but cannot completely maintain a business with the overhead costs. It's different if you have a guy with a sharpener and rivet press working out of his home garage as a side business where that margin is huge because he has so little overhead.

[NuggyBuggy 0]

But you're booking all your overhead against that one kid.

How many LHS do you know of that are loaded with staff? Typically a larger store will have more employees with higher costs all around, particularly in lease/mortgage and utilities which can make huge jumps as you increase size and space available. They then have to sell much more just to break even.

My point is that you are booking all the expenses associated with a shop ($2000 monthly rent if I recall) against a single kid working 5 hours a day, doing only sharpenings. That doesn't seem intellectually honest when it is almost certain that you are going to have other income streams to go against that overhead.

In your example the owner is STILL making money off that solitary kid- $102 per day if I recall. I recognize that this profit only occurs when the kid is doing 50 sharps a day, but he could go down to 30 a day, do or sell nothing else, you could still pay $2000 in rent plus all that overhead, and you would STILL be up a big $2.

[sdcopp 1]

But you're booking all your overhead against that one kid.

How many LHS do you know of that are loaded with staff? Typically a larger store will have more employees with higher costs all around, particularly in lease/mortgage and utilities which can make huge jumps as you increase size and space available. They then have to sell much more just to break even.

My point is that you are booking all the expenses associated with a shop ($2000 monthly rent if I recall) against a single kid working 5 hours a day, doing only sharpenings. That doesn't seem intellectually honest when it is almost certain that you are going to have other income streams to go against that overhead.

In your example the owner is STILL making money off that solitary kid- $102 per day if I recall. I recognize that this profit only occurs when the kid is doing 50 sharps a day, but he could go down to 30 a day, do or sell nothing else, you could still pay $2000 in rent plus all that overhead, and you would STILL be up a big $2.

dramatic effect to prove a point, I'll concede that. I have a couple shops in my area who have had to cut back to minimal staff, usually just the owners to make ends meet since they have no employees to pay and can minimize other costs. Two of these shops are likely closing in the next year, including the guy who does the best servicework in the area, because of the attitude that the work has so much margin and that 10% being saved doesn't really hurt the small guys if you bring them the servicework.

Look like relying on service heavy with decling sales is still such a great idea? Not from where I'm standing with a couple real world examples. My LHS servicework person at one point had several staff and twice as much square footage. He is trying to get out while he is still ahead from years of having the sales and such and having done well then. I will end up having to mail him service work from Colorado to Minnesota instead of driving 20 minutes across town since he is moving to an area that has a Hockeygiant physical location but people still prefer their own LHS a majority of the time.

In the end it will be a stretch to find good servicework guys since they have to band together in hotbeds across the country at chain stores rather than run their own businesses where they're at just to compete with the big box retailers.