Jump to content
Slate Blackcurrant Watermelon Strawberry Orange Banana Apple Emerald Chocolate Marble
Slate Blackcurrant Watermelon Strawberry Orange Banana Apple Emerald Chocolate Marble

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

jjtt99

Therma Blade

Recommended Posts

Funny- everyone who didn't invent these blades is dead set against them and are pulling out the scientific artillery to discount them.

So, you're saying science is wrong? They try to use science to say they're right, paying off one Dr. Alain Hache to endorse the product. The door is wide open to dispute their scientific claims, and as such, they got busted pretty badly by making rather outlandish claims. Sorry, but science and mathematics trumps ALL.

Why would you sell it to a company who is considered a competitor (with their existing holders).

One word. VOLUME. Did I mention I have a background in economics, too?

if these blades work, there isn't one sane reason why they wouldn't want to have TB's on a high end skate. If anyone can market a $1200 skate, its NBH..... and they would sell way more than you think.

DUDE. Read what you wrote. you contradicted yourself and made my argument for me. thanks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do you really think the director of R&D at NBH goes by the name O-Z? There are some fantastic points made that I'm sure are accurate. Funny- everyone who didn't invent these blades is dead set against them and are pulling out the scientific artillery to discount them.

I'm in the hockey industry and from what I heard, Thermablade is not (or was not) interested in selling to the big guys because they thought they had the latest and greatest invention on their hands. Why would you sell it to a company who is considered a competitor (with their existing holders).

I'm sure that NBH will say they aren't interested because they had no chance at the start, but if these blades work, there isn't one sane reason why they wouldn't want to have TB's on a high end skate. If anyone can market a $1200 skate, its NBH..... and they would sell way more than you think.

kinda like why would anybody in the hockey industy go by yorkualum...

CCM carried the t-blades for awhile. It is all about marketing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry, but science and mathematics trumps ALL.

Glad you never played on my line. Math and Science does not trump all in the arena of competition.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry, but science and mathematics trumps ALL.

Glad you never played on my line. Math and Science does not trump all in the arena of competition.

So, wait, whoever scores more goals doesnt win? well, shit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What makes the "science" and "math" difficult, in this case, is that what makes ice slippery is still not completely understood and still can't be modeled. It's interesting to winter tire manufacturers and winter sports equipment manufacturers and competitors, but to who else?

The nature of the quasi-fluidic layer has many different opinions. Up until recently, physicists' flight models of bumblebees showed that they shouldn't be able to fly at all...

So, debating the physics and the math doesn't do much good in this case.

The only way to determine whether the ThermaBlades works or not is by experimentation. As mentioned by others in this thread, perhaps a good experiment would be to take the ThermaBlades and glide them with various loads at various speeds on various ice temperatures in two conditions: heated and unheated.

It's entirely possible that heated ThermaBlades don't glide as well as unheated... or that they work better under certain circumstances.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Its also possible that ice conditions vary from rink-to-rink and they do based ice temp, condition and age of the rink systems, outdoor weather(indoor ice is better in the winter!), a million more things, and even the level of expertise of the Zam driver. The test research I run at my rink on TB will differ from the test research in puck_it's NC rinks to the test research run in any Toronto rink because the ice conditions are a variable in the equation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While it's true that there is much variation in ice conditions that the Thermablade may face, for it to be a product worthy of the price, it would have to have be able to confer enough benefit to the user that even under less than ideal conditions there would be a significant and noticeable gain in performance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In regard to the limited knowledge about ice, that's absolutely right, and it's something I've pointed out earlier. I'm not examining the ice structure or properties, I'm granting thermablade benefit of the doubt that their explanation of why skate blades work is correct. Operating under that assumption, if one was to model heat flow from the blade to the ice, based upon contact size, energy output from the blade, specific heat of ice and the energy of fusion, it's quite easy to predict how much ice would melt into water, providing the glide layer they claim is achieved. Add in speed, reducing time of heat transfer, and the number diminishes quite rapidly. So, with that in mind, even if we can assume the water layer does what they claim, the thin film of water would end up increasing by several nanometers (order of 10nm). I found a paper that discussed the water layer, and glide of skate blades (I cant remember the name of it, I'd have to dig it back up), and the temperature ranges they discussed, the water layer thickness, and subsequent decrease in coefficient of friction, has led to my conclusion that the results would be insignificant. With all of this in mind, and considering the number of papers I've read that are relevant to the discussion, I have to respectfully disagree that "debating the physics and the math doesn't do much good in this case."

The only way to determine whether the ThermaBlades works or not is by experimentation. As mentioned by others in this thread, perhaps a good experiment would be to take the ThermaBlades and glide them with various loads at various speeds on various ice temperatures in two conditions: heated and unheated.

Absolutely, which is what I'd idealy love to do. However, the main obstacle is, testing the blades isnt exactly free. As you mentioned, experimental testing is the best option. If the data proves otherwise, I've said I'd recant. Just dont think that I jumped into this unprepared. ;)

Its also possible that ice conditions vary from rink-to-rink and they do based ice temp
Correct to an extent... without getting too much into the science of it, the difference in energy required to melt ice that's 1 degree C different is something like a 1% variance. I'm not sure how much ice temperature would impact the experiment (since it clearly impacts choice of hollow), but regardless, a relative picture of their performance should suffice for our needs. If we were, say, NBH... We might want to do something a little more comprehensive.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We have four rinks under one roof. The rinks are side-by-side-by-side-by-side. Rink 1 is a dedicated figure skating rink Monday through Friday with softer ice for the figure skaters jumping and landing. By the time you get to the other end of the building, the ice in Rink 4 is much harder as that rink is the coldest in the building. One building with four rinks with at least two different ice temps. I'll have to ask the Operations guys the different ice temps.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is one glaring flaw that I see in the Thermablade design, yet it is also one of their attributes. As stated, electrical current is not transferred into the steel runner until the system senses motion. That being said, steel is a relatively low/slow conductor of heat when compared to many other metals that are available. With both of these principles at hand, and a 45 second to 90 second shift on the ice....at what point during your shift does the blade finally get up to temp to create this deeper film of water under your blade?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

that's something else I'd like to examine as well... How long it stays on after cessation of motion. But, good call on the thermal conductivity of the steel, never even thought about that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is one glaring flaw that I see in the Thermablade design, yet it is also one of their attributes. As stated, electrical current is not transferred into the steel runner until the system senses motion. That being said, steel is a relatively low/slow conductor of heat when compared to many other metals that are available. With both of these principles at hand, and a 45 second to 90 second shift on the ice....at what point during your shift does the blade finally get up to temp to create this deeper film of water under your blade?

Yep, I had noted that earlier in the thread. Are NHLers gonna be swinging their feet on the bench to keep it on?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have two test sets, a 280 and a 254. I don't have any inventory yet.

who are the test sets for?? :D

Him.

Yeah, we have them in the three proshops with the fancy-schmanzy POP and all that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry, but science and mathematics trumps ALL.

Glad you never played on my line. Math and Science does not trump all in the arena of competition.

So, wait, whoever scores more goals doesnt win? well, shit.

No, that would be called your basic straw man argument, i.e. rhetoric.

The effective use of Math and science requires proof. Proof determines outcome, whether it be retrospective or prospective.

If mathmatics and science "trumps all", then by definition, they would commonly be used to measure everything and explain all outcomes definitively.

Sounds to me like you'd be a better oddsmaker than athlete.

Sports are played precisely because math and science are not nearly adequate enough measures to accurately determine all outcomes or all causations, especially prospectively. Competition is a prospective exercise.

Perhaps math and science can be fashioned to explain everything to you retrospectively, but not prospectively. If they could, there would be no reason to go through the motions of competing, other than exercise and enjoyment. A good scientist like you would just tell us who and why "____" will win the Stanley Cup, an NCAA championship or a gold medal by defining the significant parameters, measuring the relative values amongst competitors and defining what the outcome must be.

"Not everything that can be counted counts and not everything that counts can be counted." That's a well known quote from a fairly respected scientist (Albert Einstein) who recognized the limits of math and science.

I respectfully suggest you endeavor to develop a sense of humility and self honesty when it comes to mixing science with opinions. You have not proven or disproven a darn thing so far.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

that's something else I'd like to examine as well... How long it stays on after cessation of motion. But, good call on the thermal conductivity of the steel, never even thought about that.

Hate to mention this, (actually I don't) but one of the most basic, rudimentary premises in science is the concept of functional corollaries, either positive or negative. Like Newton's third law of motion, for example.

There's a negative correlation between heat coductivity and heat retention. What takes longer to heat up, takes longer to cool down.

I'm not a professional scientist, but leaving out a most basic corollary to one of the laws of thermodynamics would indicate that maybe you aren't either?

I'm just askin.

Why don't we all wait and see what transpires? At this point it should be obvious that anyone claiming more than an opinion is just flaking their agenda.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

that's something else I'd like to examine as well... How long it stays on after cessation of motion. But, good call on the thermal conductivity of the steel, never even thought about that.

Hate to mention this, (actually I don't) but one of the most basic, rudimentary premises in science is the concept of functional corollaries, either positive or negative. Like Newton's third law of motion, for example.

There's a negative correlation between heat coductivity and heat retention. What takes longer to heat up, takes longer to cool down.

I'm not a professional scientist, but leaving out a most basic corollary to one of the laws of thermodynamics would indicate that maybe you aren't either?

I'm just askin.

Why don't we all wait and see what transpires? At this point it should be obvious that anyone claiming more than an opinion is just flaking their agenda.

Exactly my point. It would be interesting to see with the heat induced friction between the blade and the ice, and the electrical heating of the blade just how long it takes for the blade to reach it's target temperature. And then of course once the blade is up to temp over the course of your 90 second shift, how much will it cool while resting the blade on the refrigerated surface on the bench. And then going through the cycle again of bringing the temperature back up. The other thing to consider when dealing with thermaly dynamics is thermal mass. The claim that T blades had with a lower thermal mass, and thus higher retention of heat induced by friction may be valid, but with TB we are talking about a significant increase in the amount of material, ie thermal mass. I'm not saying that their claim is negated, simply another variable in an already complex situation to consider.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was simply referring to the properties of the steel impacting the results. You are assuming the blades reach the desired temperature, how do we know that?

Either way, I've set you (hipster) on ignore. I've been more than patient, even when you've resorted to calling me a 'pole smoker' and various other insults. So, screw off, and rot in hell. You've clearly got anger management issues, it's been amusing though, watching you self destruct over a pair of fucking skate blades.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was simply referring to the properties of the steel impacting the results. You are assuming the blades reach the desired temperature, how do we know that?

Of course we don't know it....we are simply basing that it will off of TB's claims. I'm not questioning whether or not the TB's reach their desired temperature. I'm sure that if TB states that it reaches XXX degrees that it will, but my question is in what duration of time, and how long the residual effect is once you come off of the ice from your shift.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...