Squats question

[kovalchuk71 212]

How far down do you guys squat? Do you go until your legs are parallel or until your hamstrings touch your calves? Is it ok to do either one?

[gman 0]

I disagree. If you use sensible weights and increase slowly, and intelligently, you should go until your hams touch your calves. Why would you not want to strengthen part of your natural range of motion? There is a reason people call the bottom part of a squat "the hole". It is because most people are so weak there that it feels like they fall into a hole. Do not bounce off your calves, but certainly go all the way down. You are doing yourself a disservice if you don't.

[kovalchuk71 212]

Yeah, it is wayyy harder. i an only rep 105 right row 5 times.

[willy0314 0]

I think it has something to do with the stress that it puts on your knees if you go past 90'.

[gman 0]

Because if you only go down half way, you can pile on a whole lot more weight and you can be sloppier in your form. That is the only reason. You can say that you are a #500 pound squatter and you are going down "pretty much" to 90 degrees and bending foreword to get movement in the bar. Assuming you don't blow your back you can impress your friends with all the weight you pile up. Because full squats are so much harder, you are forced to use weights that your weakest link can handle and increase only as fast as your weakest link. This is how you increase weight intelligently.

I think it has something to do with the stress that it puts on your knees if you go past 90'.

The human knee is not supposed to go past 90 degrees

Then why does it? I can uderstand if the strain of bending the knee foreword (hyperextending) was not recommended, but why recommend against something that your knee is designed to do. It is not designed to bounce,(ie hamstrings rebounding off your calves) but it is certainly designed to get up from sitting around the campfire. That is a perfectly natural full squat. Think about it....

[hockeyismylife 0]

I've always been told that if you use proper technique, you should always go down almost as far as you can in a controlled manner.

[willy0314 0]

i was thinking specificly of the tendons that hold your kneed cap in place. I guess more then anything though you are limited by your flexibility, so the rule should be go ALMOST as low as you can possibly go, and work on your flexibility so that you can eventually go farther?

[Project824 0]

I've always done both - substantially lighter when going past 90 degrees to get a full range of motion. It doesn't hurt to strengthen the ends of the quads as well just to support the knee. But when going heavy I go to 90 or slightly lower. There is a certain load I wouldn't be comfortable putting on my knees below 90 degrees, and it'd be difficult to fully work the middle parts of your quads and glutes with only that weight. The majority of sports are also played from a "knees bent" athletic stance (approximately 45-90 degrees), so the benefit is to have the most strength developed at that angle. Rarely will you start from a fully squatted butt on calves position in a sport.

[gman 0]

i was thinking specificly of the tendons that hold your kneed cap in place. I guess more then anything though you are limited by your flexibility, so the rule should be go ALMOST as low as you can possibly go, and work on your flexibility so that you can eventually go farther?

This is on the right track. If you work out your strongest range of motion, you will never develop your weak areas. Your strengths will get stronger and your weakness will become even more pronounced. Do you only work bicep curls (YUCK) from the top 90 degrees? Or do you go all the way to extension? Why??? So your whole range of motion is strong. Do you do any other exercises half way? It is just that squats are so darned hard and they hurt so bad that it is easier on the ego to pile on the weight and justify not working your full range of motion. Go light and Go deep. Work your way up in weight SLOWLY and you will have much stronger legs and entire body from it.

[gman 0]

Yes. Go as low as you can go. Don't go down and rest your but on your calves and relax your thighs to squish lower. Go down as low as you can, keep tension in your squatting muscles, and do not stop yourself half way. Keep you back straight and head up. For many reasons, safety being one of them, I prefer front squats. You cannot lean foreword doing front squats as you will lose the weight. You have to keep your back straight and head up. Plus they are easier to bail out if you get in trouble.

[lee92 2]

it may have been covered, but for hockey training, i'd suggest going at least 90 degrees, but not much more. if you think about it, thats generally how you're legs are when skating. when skating, you're hamstrings aren't touching your calves, so it's pointless, for performance, to train that movement. it'd help for flexibility and toning purposes, but that's it. you want your training to resemble the movements that your training for, and generally when skating, your legs are bent at the knee at 90 degrees.

[gman 0]

you want your training to resemble the movements that your training for, and generally when skating, your legs are bent at the knee at 90 degrees.

Not true at all. There have been way more experts and scientists and olympic coaches and world champions than I can possibly cite that have concluded that you train your whole body and then develop specific skills during your sports specific activities. One of the great and "revolutionary" tenets of the nautilus philosophy of Ellington Darden was that an athlete needs to train as an athlete. That means your whole body, not just portions of portions of it. This was not really new, he just re-stated an obvious fact over a century old. The old physical culture valued functional real world strength. The did not stop short of developing the whole muscle group.

Are you also saying that you do not need hamstrings in hockey??? Aside from the obvious need to pull your foot back up to recover a skate stride, do you ever fall and need to get up quick? If so do you scoot or roll over to the boards and prop yourself up with your stick until you get to the 90 degree position before standing up? Do you ever have to stretch low or to the side or out in front? I sure hope the holes in your strength profile don't hold you back.

EDIT: I completely misread what you were writing about hamstrings, sorry. However full squats will work the hamstrings and lots of other little areas where you did not even know you had muscles.

The only reason not to do full squats is that they are HARD and they make you SORE and you cannot pile as much weight on the bar.

[patr0510 0]

Make sure when your doing squats that your feet are out infront of the bar. It will feel like you are going to fall backwards, but its proper technique.

[Remman 0]

Doing squats works a majority of your body, just as deadlifts do. You should go down as far as you are comfortable without being sloppy. If your knees start to hurt, don't go as deep. They can be very helpful or very hurtful.

[Jordan6969 0]

This is a little off topic but I've always wondered what the differences are between back squats and front squats.

[gman 0]

Back squats are where you put the bar on your trapezius muscles on your upper back. Front squats are where you put the bar on your front deltoids and/or collar bones. You have to have alot better technique for front squats. They force you to keep your head up and back straight.

[willy0314 0]

Not true at all. There have been way more experts and scientists and olympic coaches and world champions than I can possibly cite that have concluded that you train your whole body and then develop specific skills during your sports specific activities. One of the great and "revolutionary" tenets of the nautilus philosophy of Ellington Darden was that an athlete needs to train as an athlete. That means your whole body, not just portions of portions of it.

Exactly. Squats are one of the best exercises for that purpose....period. There is a reason anyone who is serious about sports performance, or just body building for that matter dose squats....lots of squats....followed by more squats, and other squating like exercises.

At the same time people who don't do squats really limit their maximum performance and gains in the gym. Alot of the guys who lift, just lift to "look good". Tons of bicepts and chest ect. But ask any profesional trainer or weight lifter, if you do squats and dead lifts, you will get much bigger and stronger overall (more gains is what you want form the gym right), then if you were to neglect them and just try to focus on specific parts of your body.

[CoXmT 0]

Hey gman...I just picked up the Magnum Half Rack and some other Magnum equipment. You've got to come over and lift sometime, then after we'll hit my rink.

[gman 0]

It's a date!! Heading to the valley tomorrow for ice, can't wait.

[jptwofive 0]

I was always told that for hockey, 1/2 squats were the best way to go. Additionally, single leg squats (and of course there are a million ways to do them) are hands down the best exercise for getting/keping your legs in great shape. In my opinon full squats are for power lifters, limited range squats are great for athletes.

[gman 0]

I was always told that for hockey, 1/2 squats were the best way to go. Additionally, single leg squats (and of course there are a million ways to do them) are hands down the best exercise for getting/keping your legs in great shape. In my opinon full squats are for power lifters, limited range squats are great for athletes.

WOW! Are you setting me up? With the the exception of your comment on single leg squats, I cannot think of many statements I disagree more with. Limited range squats do just that, train you for limited range . You must be joking :lol: Thanks

Powerlifters only have to break 90 degrees for a good lift. None I have met do full squats. Olympic lifters, on the other hand, do full squats. They are some of the best conditioned athletes on the planet. Don't look at the super heavies though, look at the limited weight class lifters.

Do single leg full squats and eventually add on some weight. Hold it out in front of you though, not on your shoulders.

[jptwofive 0]

I was always told that for hockey, 1/2 squats were the best way to go. Additionally, single leg squats (and of course there are a million ways to do them) are hands down the best exercise for getting/keping your legs in great shape. In my opinon full squats are for power lifters, limited range squats are great for athletes.

WOW! Are you setting me up? With the the exception of your comment on single leg squats, I cannot think of many statements I disagree more with. Limited range squats do just that, train you for limited range . You must be joking :lol: Thanks

Powerlifters only have to break 90 degrees for a good lift. None I have met do full squats. Olympic lifters, on the other hand, do full squats. They are some of the best conditioned athletes on the planet. Don't look at the super heavies though, look at the limited weight class lifters.

Do single leg full squats and eventually add on some weight. Hold it out in front of you though, not on your shoulders.

By limited range, I mean thighs parallel to the ground. I may have confused power and olympis lifters, my bad. I must admit, I ma not awfully familiar with bodybuilding/powerlifting/olympic weightlifting.

Gman, i see your intersts include MMA, so please do not beat me silly! I juts watced some UFC last night where a guy got SMOKED by a kick!

[gman 0]

No worries Mate. When I said 90 degrees, I also meant parallel to the ground. Actually it would be a greater bend (smaller angle measurement) than 90 degrees due to the forword flex of the lower leg.

I don't beat anyone who doesn't ask for it :D You've nothing to worry about.

[gman 0]

Hey gman...I just picked up the Magnum Half Rack and some other Magnum equipment. You've got to come over and lift sometime, then after we'll hit my rink.

Hey CoXmT,

How many tiles did you end up laying down? Three car's worth? Did you build boards too?

[ktang 34]

There were studies from the '80s that concluded that full squats were harmful to the knees. So, the exercise physiologists told everybody to squat only to 90 degrees.

Recently (since 2000), there were more studies that conclude that improperly performed full squats are very harmful to the knees' and back's ligaments and tendonds, but that full squats done with proper form do not increase the athlete's predisposition to knee or back pain or damage.

I do both; lighter weights for the full squats, and heavier for the half squats (because the in the last 30 degrees of the movement the tear-drop shaped muscle inside the knees are activated; this is the 'hole' that gman mentions above).

I have seen others attach chains to the bar to do the full squats. When they go all the way down, the chains pool around on the ground. As they straighten up, the chains are lifted and add weight to the top portion of the lift.

If you are going to do full squats, start light and make sure that you have proper form. I don't know how to ensure that your trainer or whomever is checking your form knows what s/he is doing, though, because there is no standard for exercise physiologists', kinesiologists', or trainers' practical knowledge certification.