Datsyuk vs. Thornton

[Datsyukiandeek 0]

I think you've completely missed my point.

I think your point is flawed. Theres only a few players in the NHL who could turn AHL players into stars. Ovechkin, Jagr and Crosby are some of them. Thornton and Datsyuk arent. Glenn Murray is a great goal scorer, hes a playmakers dream. Cheechoo scored 30 goals in his sophmore season without Thornton, granted Thornton is one of the best passers in the league. Playmakers need scoring Wingers, its just a fact of the position.

Take a look at the Red Wings lineup, their top Winger is Thomas Holmstrom. The literally have the bleakest core of wingers in the NHL and are stacked at center and both Zetterberg and Datsyuk are still top 25 in NHL scoring.

Now, take a look at San Jose's roster, they have two great centers like Detroit but they also have goal scoring wingers. Mikael Samuelsson and Jason Williams wouldn't even make the San Jose squad, Holmstrom would be on the 4th line and Dan Cleary could probably be their stick boy.

San Jose has Michalek, Cheechoo and Bernier.. Looks a little better then Holmstrom, Cleary and Samuelsson.

Not to mention Thornton is now playing with Marleau so the arguement is pointless, stars play with stars.. not just on the PP. Look at Lecavalier and St. Louis, two great players but they're playing together and tearing up the league. Could they carry a line with Cleary or Samuelsson? That remains to be seen.

Spezza/Heatley/Alf..Hossa/Kozlov/Kovalchuk.. It can go on and on.

[DamnLocust 0]

Datsyuk/Zetterberg play together

Dats is a star

Zetterberg is a star...

You said yourself that if they were playing together earlier in the year, Dats would have even more points. Thus, Dats can't do it without Z.

[Eazy_b97 1]

Their wingers aren't nearly as bleak as you make it seem. Take a look around the league and one of Zetterberg/Dats is always on the wing.

My point is, superstars like Thornton, Foppa, Kovalchuk, etc.. are always the top players on their line, and always bring their team to the next level. Datsyuk hasn't done this.

When Thornton went to Boston they were terrible, when he left Murray couldn't do anything. They were forced to get Marc Savard to save Murray and make his contract worthy.

Stars do play with Stars, but they can also play by themselves and make those around them stars. When Michalek and Clowe/Pavelski played with Thornton they were scoring at an incredible pace. Since being removed they've struggled a ton. Thornton remained a constant though. Conversely, it took both Zetterberg and Datsyuk playing together in order for them to spark one another. Alot of the leagues superstars don't need that, they can create on their own.

[mack 44]

The only thing I've learned in this part of the board is that people with their favourite player's name in their handle are wonderfully loyal but completely ineffective in their arguments.

[Datsyukiandeek 0]

Datsyuk/Zetterberg play together

Dats is a star

Zetterberg is a star...

You said yourself that if they were playing together earlier in the year, Dats would have even more points. Thus, Dats can't do it without Z.

Not at all, they managed 80+ points last sesason playing on seperate lines. The Wings had a legitment winger in Shanahan last season, Dats/Shanny, Zetterberg/Holmstrom. I have no doubt that Thornton could succed on a line with Williams and Cleary but would he be top five in NHL scoring? Doubtful. The fact remains that some players have a specialized role. Murray isn't a playmaker and neither is Shanahan. Playmaking centers need wingers who can finish, they don't need to be HHOF worthy but finishers to say the least. Dats finished with 87 points in 75 games last season with a scoring veteran. Where would Brett Hull be today without the great centers he spent his entire career with? Oates, Modano, Datsyuk. Could Hull carry a line? Probably not, I highly doubt he would have succeeded so well with a 3rd or 4th line center sending passes his way.

Thornton is a great player but hes never really lacked a quality goal scorer. Hes always had Murray, Carter, Samsonov, Geurin or Cheechoo. Datsyuk has had Hull, Shanahan, Zetterberg(rookie season) and Cleary.

The only thing I've learned in this part of the board is that people with their favourite player's name in their handle are wonderfully loyal but completely ineffective in their arguments.

Best part being, you've never once participated in the arguments. You'll come in from time to time to comment on someone elses point, much like every other time you post. What a snappy guy

To some up your argument.. "Thornton score lots, hes good" Nothing like a good blanket statement to cover all points, wouldn't want to actually get into real debate or anything.

[mack 44]

Douche, I've pointed out all that needs to be said about why Thornton's on another level compared to Datsyuk. You can't tell me in one post why Datsyuk is even comparable to Thornton when he's not.

[Datsyukiandeek 0]

Douche, I've pointed out all that needs to be said about why Thornton's on another level compared to Datsyuk. You can't tell me in one post why Datsyuk is even comparable to Thornton when he's not.

Person attackes eh

Did you not change the title to Datsyuk vs Thornton? This was never Datsyuk vs Thornton, I clearly stated this 4-5 pages back. The issue which started this thread was "Does Datsyuk deserve Thornton like money". I said yes because hes imporant to the team, you turned it into Thornton vs Datsyuk, which is like comparing Mario Lemieux to Igor Larionov. Two different players and both players mean different things to their respective clubs.

"Thornton score lots"

[pwrfwd26 0]

f#ck it! i hope detriot gives Dat's the max contract for the max yrs. i don't care how much he gets. i don't just don't want my team 2 pay him joe money!

[mack 44]

Douche, I've pointed out all that needs to be said about why Thornton's on another level compared to Datsyuk. You can't tell me in one post why Datsyuk is even comparable to Thornton when he's not.

Person attackes eh

Did you not change the title to Datsyuk vs Thornton? This was never Datsyuk vs Thornton, I clearly stated this 4-5 pages back. The issue which started this thread was "Does Datsyuk deserve Thornton like money". I said yes because hes imporant to the team, you turned it into Thornton vs Datsyuk, which is like comparing Mario Lemieux to Igor Larionov. Two different players and both players mean different things to their respective clubs.

"Thornton score lots"

No, it's just like calling a peanut a peanut.

Who the hell are you quoting? Thornton doesn't score so much as he creates. He creates at a much better level than Datsyuk or Zetterberg would have a lot more than the 30 goals he has.

[Eazy_b97 1]

So your essentially your argument is Thornton was blessed with great wingers like?

Your list consists of a number of players who had career years beside Thornton and have struggled without him at times.

Then your Datsyuk list consists of people who played better without him (Shanny and Hull) and lists Zetterg and Cleary (who spends alot of time with Lang). Then you said earlier Zetts and him work together moreso than Dats carrying them.

Earlier you said it's a weak excuse to bring in circumstances, like linemates, when I brought up Jagr's team in Pitts.

Seems like you're running around a bit and having trouble admitting he isn't on Thorntons level. It's reflected in the points, and their salary.

Did you not change the title to Datsyuk vs Thornton? This was never Datsyuk vs Thornton, I clearly stated this 4-5 pages back. The issue which started this thread was "Does Datsyuk deserve Thornton like money". I said yes because hes imporant to the team, you turned it into Thornton vs Datsyuk, which is like comparing Mario Lemieux to Igor Larionov. Two different players and both players mean different things to their respective clubs.

"Thornton score lots"

No, he didn't. I did because it doesn't belong in the Foppa thread and is a topic comparing Thornton and Datsyuk. When you ask for Thornton money, you are comparing yourself to him.

-Ones been a captain, the other hasn't.

-Ones been his teams leader for a number of years, the other isn't even now, and has never been.

- Neither is good in the playoffs, but one is still better PPG wise by a fair margin, despite not having the secondary scoring.

That one is Thornton. So he isn't as good of a leader, he doesn't carry his team, he isn't as good of a playmaker, he doesn't produce as much as Thornton, and he isn't physically intimidating.

Nobody purposely made this comparison for Dats to look bad like you suggest, Dats wanted a payday and tried to butter himself up. Now we are discussing why his demands were incredibly ridiculous.

[Cavs019 710]

Datsyuk stood out more at the begining of the year

You're a fool if you think Datsyuk was worth anything more than a bag of pucks at the beginning of the season.

[Datsyukiandeek 0]

Douche, I've pointed out all that needs to be said about why Thornton's on another level compared to Datsyuk. You can't tell me in one post why Datsyuk is even comparable to Thornton when he's not.

Person attackes eh

Did you not change the title to Datsyuk vs Thornton? This was never Datsyuk vs Thornton, I clearly stated this 4-5 pages back. The issue which started this thread was "Does Datsyuk deserve Thornton like money". I said yes because hes imporant to the team, you turned it into Thornton vs Datsyuk, which is like comparing Mario Lemieux to Igor Larionov. Two different players and both players mean different things to their respective clubs.

"Thornton score lots"

No, it's just like calling a peanut a peanut.

Who the hell are you quoting? Thornton doesn't score so much as he creates. He creates at a much better level than Datsyuk or Zetterberg would have a lot more than the 30 goals he has.

You do realize that Datsyuk is playing LW and has been for about 30 games? And during that time, Zetterberg's scoring has gone through the roof with Datsyuk setting up the majority of his goals.

If they played together for all 56 games this season they would be on par with Lecavalier/St. Louis.

Datsyuk made Shanahan a 40 goal scorer last season.. the last time Shanny even sniffed 40 was 2002. He was on a line with Fedorov and Yzerman. Hull was scoring at the same pace as he was with Modano centering him. Apparently Datsyuk isn't even a star, the guy only kept pace with Fedorov and Modano, two terrible playmakers in their own right.

Datsyuk stood out more at the begining of the year

You're a fool if you think Datsyuk was worth anything more than a bag of pucks at the beginning of the season.

He was on a line with Jason Williams and Dan Cleary AHL players at worst, 4th liners at best. Even at that time he was still leading the team in scoring. Zetterberg was terrible and turned it completely around, scoring the bulk of this seasons points since being reunited with Datsyuk.

[mack 44]

Douche, I've pointed out all that needs to be said about why Thornton's on another level compared to Datsyuk. You can't tell me in one post why Datsyuk is even comparable to Thornton when he's not.

Person attackes eh

Did you not change the title to Datsyuk vs Thornton? This was never Datsyuk vs Thornton, I clearly stated this 4-5 pages back. The issue which started this thread was "Does Datsyuk deserve Thornton like money". I said yes because hes imporant to the team, you turned it into Thornton vs Datsyuk, which is like comparing Mario Lemieux to Igor Larionov. Two different players and both players mean different things to their respective clubs.

"Thornton score lots"

No, it's just like calling a peanut a peanut.

Who the hell are you quoting? Thornton doesn't score so much as he creates. He creates at a much better level than Datsyuk or Zetterberg would have a lot more than the 30 goals he has.

You do realize that Datsyuk is playing LW and has been for about 30 games? And during that time, Zetterberg's scoring has gone through the roof with Datsyuk setting up the majority of his goals.

If they played together for all 56 games this season they would be on par with Lecavalier/St. Louis.

Datsyuk made Shanahan a 40 goal scorer last season.. the last time Shanny even sniffed 40 was 2002. He was on a line with Fedorov and Yzerman. Hull was scoring at the same pace as he was with Modano centering him. Apparently Datsyuk isn't even a star, the guy only kept pace with Fedorov and Modano, two terrible playmakers in their own right.

Datsyuk stood out more at the begining of the year

You're a fool if you think Datsyuk was worth anything more than a bag of pucks at the beginning of the season.

He was on a line with Jason Williams and Dan Cleary AHL players at worst, 4th liners at best. Even at that time he was still leading the team in scoring. Zetterberg was terrible and turned it completely around, scoring the bulk of this seasons points since being reunited with Datsyuk.

By that rationale whatever tool that's centering Shanny this year is on Datsyuk's level. Whatever, then I'm going to say Janney's better than Datsyuk and even I can't get that argument in my favour.

[Datsyukiandeek 0]

By that rationale whatever tool that's centering Shanny this year is on Datsyuk's level. Whatever, then I'm going to say Janney's better than Datsyuk and even I can't get that argument in my favour.

Pretty sure Shanahan has been the Rangers second line center for the majority of this season

[Chadd 916]

By that rationale whatever tool that's centering Shanny this year is on Datsyuk's level. Whatever, then I'm going to say Janney's better than Datsyuk and even I can't get that argument in my favour.

Pretty sure Shanahan has been the Rangers second line center for the majority of this season

You're wrong, he's been a second line winger all season and that was done to add additional scoring punch to the team.

[mack 44]

OMG Then his wingers must be better than Datsyuk since Datsyuk's been there.

Jesus, you act like any guy who can switch positions deserves a statue made in their honour.

[Chadd 916]

OMG Then his wingers must be better than Datsyuk since Datsyuk's been there.

Jesus, you act like any guy who can switch positions deserves a statue made in their honour.

I'd like my statue to be placed outside the Black Rose in Boston so it can be there, even when I can't.

[Datsyukiandeek 0]

OMG Then his wingers must be better than Datsyuk since Datsyuk's been there.

Jesus, you act like any guy who can switch positions deserves a statue made in their honour.

Datsyuk led the team in points for the majority of the season, made the jump to first line LW and since then Zetterberg has turned into the hottest scorer in the league. Coincidence?

[Chadd 916]

OMG Then his wingers must be better than Datsyuk since Datsyuk's been there.

Jesus, you act like any guy who can switch positions deserves a statue made in their honour.

Datsyuk led the team in points for the majority of the season, made the jump to first line LW and since then Zetterberg has turned into the hottest scorer in the league. Coincidence?

Nope, Zetterberg's work ethic is forcing Datsyuk to play harder.

[Datsyukiandeek 0]

OMG Then his wingers must be better than Datsyuk since Datsyuk's been there.

Jesus, you act like any guy who can switch positions deserves a statue made in their honour.

Datsyuk led the team in points for the majority of the season, made the jump to first line LW and since then Zetterberg has turned into the hottest scorer in the league. Coincidence?

Nope, Zetterberg's work ethic is forcing Datsyuk to play harder.

The guy led the team in scoring, for 75%, first 10-15 games it was Lids or Schneider, of this season so far. Zetterberg only over took him while getting feeds from Datsyuk. Whos forcing whos hand?

[Eazy_b97 1]

So Zetterberg is the leading scorer, neither of them played particularly well aside from eachother, and you believe he is on Thornton, one of the top point getters in the NHL, level?

[Datsyukiandeek 0]

So Zetterberg is the leading scorer, neither of them played particularly well aside from eachother, and you believe he is on Thornton, one of the top point getters in the NHL, level?

Not quite... is Thornton the better player/asset? Yes Does his physical play bring more then Datsyuk could ever hope to do? Yes

But thats not the point, Thornton is valuble to his team as is Datsyuk. I think Datsyuk can and most likely will get a Thornton like deal. It all hinges on this years playoffs.

Is Richards worth $7 mill to another NHL team? Probably not, is he worth it to the Bolts? Apparently so. The same can be said about Chara, Kovalchuk, Lidstrom. Its all about what the team needs, without Datsyuk the wings are sunk, probably on the fringes of the playoffs. Anyone suggesting that Datsyuk isn't a valuble player to the Wings is crazy. Its amazing how many players in this league get completely low balled by teams and fans, Datsyuk and Ryan Smyth are prime examples.

[Chadd 916]

OMG Then his wingers must be better than Datsyuk since Datsyuk's been there.

Jesus, you act like any guy who can switch positions deserves a statue made in their honour.

Datsyuk led the team in points for the majority of the season, made the jump to first line LW and since then Zetterberg has turned into the hottest scorer in the league. Coincidence?

Nope, Zetterberg's work ethic is forcing Datsyuk to play harder.

The guy led the team in scoring, for 75%, first 10-15 games it was Lids or Schneider, of this season so far. Zetterberg only over took him while getting feeds from Datsyuk. Whos forcing whos hand?

Datsyuk takes too many nights off. If he actually worked hard on a regular basis, he would be leading the team. Neither one has done much in the playoffs but at least Hank makes something resembling an effort.

[Datsyukiandeek 0]

Datsyuk takes too many nights off. If he actually worked hard on a regular basis, he would be leading the team. Neither one has done much in the playoffs but at least Hank makes something resembling an effort.

He doesn't work hard? Dats is averaging 20 minutes a night, hes a +22, plays the PP and penalty kill. Hes only been below 50% on his faceoffs in 4 games this season and was consistantly hitting 60% as second line center.

In turn Zetts is averaging 20 minutes a night, hes +25, plays the PP and penalty kill. Hes been below 50% on his faceoffs in 23 games, 3 times being completely shutout, hes been consistantly hitting 45-50% as first line center.

The look almost identical, the only thing Zetterberg has going for him is he shoots the puck alot more.

The only current disparity between Zetts and Datsyuk is contract size. The Wings signed Zetterberg to a steal of a contract in 03-04, after a 43 point campaign. The contract runs through 08-09 and its 2.65 mill a season. After that, Zetts will expect a raise and he'll get it, just like Datsyuk.

[Cavs019 710]

Datsyuk played well below a PPG pace at the beginning of the season. The linemate argument is garbage because Mats Sundin has emerged as a potential Hall of Fame candidate being a damn helicopter his entire career. Not to mention Ovechkin and Semin have lit it up all season playing with benders at even-strength.