Gagne blew a save

[JR Boucicaut 3768]

Rivera's high heat is still nasty.

THose guys who throw smoke all turn out to be flash in the pans. I don't watch many Dodgers games, but does Gagne have the ability to get 6, maybe 9 outs?

[mack 44]

But you can always gear up for the fastball and sit on it. Let him beat you with three deuces or his non-existent change-up. Hoffman used to be able to do the same thing--overpower people--but he also had a change-up that ended up being his best pitch, even now when he throws maybe low 90s.

I'll agree his curve is great, but he still needs to get the first fastball over so you can sit on it and wait. In theory at least, it obviously hasn't worked well for the last 80 something games. And no, he doesn't have the ability to get 6-9 outs. He couldn't get that when he started.

[JR Boucicaut 3768]

Very true Mack. Guys like that are susceptible to the HR...technically the only "major" game Gagne has tried to save was the All-Star Game and we know how that turned out.

[mack 44]

Exactly. It's coming in damn near 100 but with no movement. Had he remained healthy, I'd have even taken Wagner over Gagne. People like Rivera, Wetteland, Smoltz and Percival could all use a different pitches and location to weasel out of things.

[Chadd 916]

Gagne has a killer change as well. A couple days ago he went from a 95 MPH fastball to a 65 MPH change. It's not like he's a one trick pony. Keep in mind Lo Duca isn't known for being one of the best at calling a game, he could be even better with a good catcher.

[LegoDoom 0]

Gagne doesn't throw a curve. When we was a starter, he threw a fastball, sinker, slider, and changeup. Now that he's a closer, he mainly uses the fastball and changeup. And the fastball isn't all that straight either, it tails a bit. I'm not saying he's not good, just that he hasn't proven anything in big games. And you can sit there and say it's not his fault, but you can't tell me that if he was on a good team that he'd be just as good (or better, as you're saying). In the biggest game he's been in (the AS game on national tv), he blew the save. He hasn't proven anything in big game situations. Until then, I'll take Rivera.

Being a Phillies fan, I love Wagner. But, his fastball is a little straight and his slider isn't nearly as good or used as often as I'd like to see (then again, nobody hits it because you can't sit on an 93 mph slider when it's hard enough to catch up to the fastball when you know it's coming). He's a great pitcher and locates his pitches really well, but doesn't have the movement that Gagne or Rivera have on theirs. I'm also a Percival fan, but he's injured too much to be in the top tier of closers.

[mack 44]

I was going for the Percival of yore, going along with putting Wetteland up there.

I've seen Gagne dropping the curve in, hardly any changes. Granted it doesn't have to be a Tommy Glavine change because anything after 98 is going to look nasty.

I worry about Gagne's arm since other guys that throw hard like Mantei and Wagner have run into problems. Lego has a point about being unproven in big games because that's where closers are made. It's not a forgiving job to say the least.

[Chadd 916]

Can't disagree with any of those points but Gagne has a much larger lower body than does Wagner. The guys with big legs hardly ever seem to have those problems.

[LegoDoom 0]

Wagner has big legs for as small as the guy is. This year, his groin has been more of an issue than his elbow.

And I don't see a ton of Dodger games, but when I do, no one can his his changeup. That's definitely his out pitch. It looks kind of like a screwball and is just nasty. He has a slow curve, but just started using it again last year and I didn't think he used it that often.

[mack 44]

I don't see many Dodger games either (thank God) but when they're on TBS I usually see his curve and it's gotten better. I think it's arbitrary what pitch he uses after his fastball as long as it's a strike, but I don't see him being able to adapt like someone like Hoffman had to.

On the dark side of closers, what the hell happened to Koch?

[LegoDoom 0]

I never liked Koch and was really surprised he was dealth for Foulke (who I consider a solid second tier closer) a few years back.

And Percival really does have some great stuff, but just can't stay healthy. It's a good thing the Angels have another good late reliever.

[mack 44]

I thought it was good for the A's getting him out of Toronto and then dealing him for Foulke was genius. But at that time Koch wasn't a bust.

Angels still have Rodriguez right? He's great in middle relief unless they have him as a starter.

[JR Boucicaut 3768]

Goose Gossage has some interesting comments in today's NY Post.

http://www.nypost.com/sports/yankees/17911.htm

He's right.

[D3nZ 0]

I remember seeing him on RDS a while ago, he was sooo skinny, he gainned amazing muscle weight.

EDIT: Talking about Gagné btw.